The French go OTT on the Champs Elysees

[Peter King]

From the Independent here: It’s not surprising that fuel protests in Paris turned violent – the French establishment has long ignored social inequality

Excerpt:
.......
What most of the French do not understand is that the Treaty of Maastricht (that introduced the Euro) called for a maximum governmental deficit of not more than 3% of GDP. Today it is approaching 100%!

The EU Central Bank is getting skittish, and rightfully so. But, the French are not a people to suffer-in-silence as do the Germans (or Nordics).

Nope, they march right down the Champs-Elysees and wreak havoc on their way. Well, actually it was a bunch of nerdy young-adults with a grudge who did it - but, still ...

I disagree, for some reason people in France have been relying on the government and businesses to play Santa Claus for decades. People stop working (on average) at age 58.7 rather than closer to 65. The work participation of people 55 to 64 in France is just 37.8%, that is terribly low.

The French are also champions in striking. In 2016 French workers had 123 strike day per 1000 employees. You know how many we had in the Netherlands per 1000 employees? 8 strike days.

Why would employers start business or invest in France? There are ample of unemployed, 9.3% compared to 3.9 in the Netherlands. When Macron tried to achieve labor reforms, French protesters turned violent, KLM/Air France protests even turned into an angry mob ripping off the clothes of Air France managers.

France should be a haven for foreign employers but let us be honest, what English or foreign business would want to settle in France? The number of proficient English speakers is way lower than in Northern European countries. Add to that the aforementioned strike willingness and the inability of the French of accepting changes in their work conditions/reform. It is not strange that the unemployment is that high.

The previous government were most likely not unwilling to make changes, it is the French public that makes such changes near impossible through violence, protests and lengthy strikes. When the French government wanted to raise the pension age the French unions called on people not even old enough to work to come out and protest.

Let us compare, in France foreign companies/persons invested $858,300,000,000 which sounds pretty impressive if not for the fact that (for example) the Netherlands has $5,499,000,000,000 of foreign investments into our country. And you know why? Well we do not know a lot of strikes, our working population is usually very proficient in English, highly trained, a stable government and a good investment climate. The thing France does not have. In Europe the Netherlands, the UK, Germany, Ireland, Switzerland and Belgium all rake in a lot more foreign investments into their countries.

And those investments create jobs, they create a prosperous work environment. The unions in most of these countries are participants in the capitalist process rather than hindering the capitalist process.

Yes French governments have been unwilling to make necessary changes but that is mostly due to the unwillingness of the French public to accept those, even in times of need (like the mandatory 35 hour work week which has not created the desired effect of more jobs). France needs a real overhaul to attract investments, lower unemployment but the current behavior of the French is a big red warning sign for all planning to invest in France, RUN RUN to other EU countries if you want to invest in Europe. That is the message the French public is once again giving off in these weeks.

 

[Lafayette]

Yes French governments have been unwilling to make necessary changes but that is mostly due to the unwillingness of the French public to accept those, even in times of need (like the mandatory 35 hour work week which has not created the desired effect of more jobs). France needs a real overhaul to attract investments, lower unemployment but the current behavior of the French is a big red warning sign for all planning to invest in France, RUN RUN to other EU countries if you want to invest in Europe. That is the message the French public is once again giving off in these weeks.

Yes, I quite agree with most of which you have posted. France's problems go a long time back, and most of them are due to an irrational belief that work is necessary to earn a living but a disgusting practice nonetheless. One has to live here to understand that simple thought.

So, the French are learning the hard-way:
*Local manufacturing of small cars (with small mark-up margins) have long since headed south to Morocco.
*There are far too many "days off" as well of the Socialist Party's idiocy of introducing the 35-hour week. (Which the present government has tried to weaken.)
*The China-effect has had a monstrous impact upon the manufacturing across-the-board - from cloths to glass products to rubber tires.

All of the above were once considered "normal" in multilateral free international trade context. Unfortunately those who thought that 20 years ago failed to understand the consequences of the Great Recession AND mounting China Trade that happened at about the same time.

The consequence was and remains of historic proportions. Meaning that neither France (nor much of the rest of Europe) will exit the past recession to any great extent. Meaning, I suggest, the long-term minimum unemployment rate will remain ultimately above 4%:

The damage has been done and it is irreparable ...

 

[Surrealistik]

Personally, I'm not averse to the loosening of labour laws/regs; it probably needed to happen.

What really ****ed Macron and was an indisputable error in his judgement was passing regressive taxation at the same time he engaged in a big tax giveaway to the rich (which he refuses to budge on by the way); that act of obvious, glaring economic injustice was what really set off this **** show, and keeps it well fuelled.

 

[Jack Hays]

[FONT=&quot]Climate ugliness[/FONT]
[h=1]French President Deploying Police Armed with High Capacity Live Ammunition Weapons to Intimidate Carbon Tax Protestors[/h][FONT=&quot]Guest essay by Eric Worrall Green globalist President Macron has deployed non specialist police armed with semi-automatic weapons with large magazines to try to intimidate yellow vest carbon tax protestors. French riot police are now using semi-automatic weapons with live ammunition against Yellow Vest protestors as Macron’s law and order crisis spirals Officers were film
[/FONT]

 

[Surrealistik]

[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/16/french-president-deploying-police-armed-with-high-capacity-live-ammunition-weapons-to-intimidate-carbon-tax-protestors/"]

[/URL]Climate ugliness[/FONT]
[h=1]French President Deploying Police Armed with High Capacity Live Ammunition Weapons to Intimidate Carbon Tax Protestors[/h][FONT="]Guest essay by Eric Worrall Green globalist President Macron has deployed non specialist police armed with semi-automatic weapons with large magazines to try to intimidate yellow vest carbon tax protestors. French riot police are now using semi-automatic weapons with live ammunition against Yellow Vest protestors as Macron’s law and order crisis spirals Officers were film
[/FONT]

I'm not sure why, beyond reasons of rhetorical/political expedience, this source continues to call them 'carbon tax protestors' since the protests are persisting despite the rescinding of the fuel tax.

Again, this goes far beyond that ill-advised regressive tax, and is more a question of overall economic justice; were he to annul his tax giveaway to the rich, the key policy point he continues to hold out on, there wouldn't be much steam left in the sails of the yellow vest movement.

 

[ataraxia]

Do you see now how ridiculous most of these super expensive "Global Warming" plans are?

In the real world they are never going to happen, because the people will not allow it.

If that was the argument, it would be worth listening to. We could have very difficult but fruitful and rational dialogue about how to balance the short term needs of the people with the longer term threat of climate change. That's how you navigate among competing demands and make compromises to come up with solutions that work for everyone, for the short and long term. There can be equally legitimate considerations and facts, which nontheless conflict. And so it's the job of public discourse and rational discussion to navigate them to minimize the harm and maximize the benefit as much as possible, to everyone.

But denying the unanimous consensus of every single scientific that global warming even exists, and calling it just a Chinese hoax? You can see how that makes it very difficult to even have a rational discussion.

 

[Hawkeye10]

If that was the argument, it would be worth listening to. We could have very difficult but fruitful and rational dialogue about how to balance the short term needs of the people with the longer term threat of climate change. That's how you navigate among competing demands and make compromises to come up with solutions that work for everyone, for the short and long term. There can be equally legitimate considerations and facts, which nontheless conflict. And so it's the job of public discourse and rational discussion to navigate them to minimize the harm and maximize the benefit as much as possible, to everyone.

But denying the unanimous consensus of every single scientific that global warming even exists, and calling it just a Chinese hoax? You can see how that makes it very difficult to even have a rational discussion.

You need to get over it....the West is dying and science is very corrupt...your "I am so sure that I am right that I dont need to consider what you think" approach is a non starter with me.

 

[ataraxia]

You need to get over it....the West is dying and science is very corrupt...

Science is corrupt? When did that happen? Every single scientific organization is saying the same thing, unanimously. That includes the people that work for the Trump organization and the fossil fuel companies. It takes courage to take that position when you may lose your job saying that. That's not corruption. That's just courage and integrity. And last I checked, we had some pretty amazing photos of Saturn's moons, and mortality from many different kinds of cancer was continuing to go down.

""I am so sure that I am right that I dont need to consider what you think"

I am the one saying we need to consider what the working class thinks and what their concerns and considerations are in trying to come up with a good solution to this difficult problem. Climate deniers are the ones saying we only need to worry about the short term concerns of the working class and shouldn't consider what the science actually says about longer term problems.

So who's really the one saying "I am so sure that I am right that I dont need to consider what you think"?

And remember, the working class is concerned about their next paycheck only- next week at most. But if these scientists do turn out to be right (they have a pretty good track record after all), they would be the ones most hurt in the long run. It's sad, but true.

 

[Jack Hays]

I'm not sure why, beyond reasons of rhetorical/political expedience, this source continues to call them 'carbon tax protestors' since the protests are persisting despite the rescinding of the fuel tax.

Again, this goes far beyond that ill-advised regressive tax, and is more a question of overall economic justice; were he to annul his tax giveaway to the rich, the key policy point he continues to hold out on, there wouldn't be much steam left in the sails of the yellow vest movement.

From the link in #154:

[FONT=&quot]. . . The Yellow Vest protests erupted in response to President Macron’s efforts to raise fuel taxes, to try to discourage fossil fuel use. The regressive carbon tax triggered a furious response from the French people, especially workers from poor rural communities who utterly depend on fossil fuel for their livelihoods. The protests are continuing because of President Macron’s clumsy failure to reassure the protestors that he wants to address their concerns.[/FONT]

 

[Surrealistik]

From the link in #154:

[FONT="]. . . The Yellow Vest protests erupted in response to President Macron’s efforts to raise fuel taxes, to try to discourage fossil fuel use. The regressive carbon tax triggered a furious response from the French people, especially workers from poor rural communities who utterly depend on fossil fuel for their livelihoods. The protests are continuing because of President Macron’s clumsy failure to reassure the protestors that he wants to address their concerns.[/FONT]

...But if their concerns are wholly or predominately predicated on the fuel taxes as the writer appears to purport, how is the protest continuing over a 'clumsy failure to reassure' when he repealed said fuel taxes? That's about as definitive a reassurance as you can get, and there should be nothing more to it if this premise is to be believed.

It's a lacking hypothesis at best that seems in contradiction with the facts as they stand. At the very least they can no longer be described as 'carbon tax protestors', even if one were to grant that it was the primary motive once upon a time (which I don't agree with).

 

[Jack Hays]

...But if their concerns are wholly or predominately predicated on the fuel taxes as the writer appears to purport, how is the protest continuing over a 'clumsy failure to reassure' when he repealed said fuel taxes? That's about as definitive a reassurance as you can get, and there should be nothing more to it if this premise is to be believed.

It's a lacking hypothesis at best that seems in contradiction with the facts as they stand. At the very least they can no longer be described as 'carbon tax protestors', even if one were to grant that it was the primary motive once upon a time (which I don't agree with).

The French Revolution began with a crisis of royal finances. There is a long tradition in France of political upheaval outgrowing its origin.

 

[Jack Hays]

[FONT=&quot]carbon tax / Climate ugliness[/FONT]
[h=1]French Doctors on Yellow Vest Carbon Tax Protestors: “Alarming” Number of Injuries[/h][FONT=&quot]Guest essay by Eric Worrall French Doctors have sounded the alarm over apparent rough treatment by security forces of yellow vest protestors marching against President Macron’s carbon tax. Doctors Say Number of Serious Injuries Inflicted on Yellow Vests Unprecedented Chris Tomlinson 23 Jan 2019 Doctors, activists and others are sounding the alarm over the number…
[/FONT]

 

[Evilroddy]

French security forces are using reduced-strength fragmentation/tear gas grenades and reduced strength projected fragmentation grenades against the Gilet Jaunes protesters and very serious injuries are the result. Serious eye injuries including permanent blindings and blown off fingers and entire hands are the types of injuries being seen in larger numbers now. I believe France is the only Western European state using such powerful "crowd control" weapons on their own citizens.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tactics-scrutiny-gilets-jaunes-injuries-paris

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Jack Hays]

French security forces are using reduced strength fragmentation grenades and reduced strength projected grenades against the Gilets Jaunes protesters and very serious injuries are the result. Serious eye injuries including permanent blinding and blown off fingers and entire hands are the types of injuries being seen in larger number. I believe France is the only Western European state using such powerful "crowd control" weapons on their own citizens.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

French proverb: "Fear of the gendarme is the beginning of wisdom."

 

[Evilroddy]

French proverb: "Fear of the gendarme is the beginning of wisdom."

Jack Hays:

"La peur est le commencement de la sagesse." - Francois Mauriac.

This sentiment was echoed by the spokesman for the Sûreté du Québec (Quebec Provincial Police) just before the G-7 meeting in Québec City in 2006 in order to intimidate protesters from demonstrating. Plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme, je pense. (The more things change, the more they stay the same, I think.).

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Jack Hays]

Jack Hays:

"La peur est le commencement de la sagesse." - Francois Mauriac.

This sentiment was echoed by the spokesman for the Sûreté du Québec (Quebec Provincial Police) just before the G-7 meeting in Québec City in 2006 in order to intimidate protesters from demonstrating. Plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme, je pense. (The more things change, the more they stay the same, I think.).

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

"Plus ca change . . . " is from Talleyrand, a figure I admire.

 

[Lafayette]

His pursuit of the agenda of the elite is bringing him into conflict with his own people. His arrogance will not permit him to back down. France is in trouble.

He has made some profound changes to the internal mechanics of running France, none of which affect directly the people in "Yellow Vests" who demonstrated against him.

The best part is yet to come, but it will take a while for the economic machinery to click into high-gear. Already, last year saw a decrease in France's unemployment rate. Not much, but the rate was down and not up.

The French love to bitch-'n-moan and this present crowd of Yellow Vests are some really poor people. They would have liked to have a bit more money-in-the-pocket.

But, what the Yellow Jackets have forgot - or perhaps never learned - is that the Maastricht Treaty that France signed-onto stipulates no more than a 3% of GDP deficit. A rule which just about no country in the EU observed - excerpt of course Germany. (Who are at present the only financial backer of the EU because it is the only country making a decent positive GDP.

Moreover, though slowly, most of the EU is economically on the mend. It will take another year but the signs are good.

It's a place worth investing in simply because it is a large unified GDP (in euros) comparable to that of the USA. (Brexit or no Brexit.)

For instance:

 

[Lafayette]

French security forces are using reduced-strength fragmentation/tear gas grenades and reduced strength projected fragmentation grenades against the Gilet Jaunes protesters and very serious injuries are the result. Serious eye injuries including permanent blindings and blown off fingers and entire hands are the types of injuries being seen in larger numbers now.

You fail to mention the multi-million dollar damage that the Yellow-Jackets sparked. Not necessarily themselves, but the fact that ordinary hoodlums mixed in with them and then started ransacking stores. The damages were in the multi-millions of euros.

And for what? To show the world how pissed off they were? Most are really ignorant people who barely made it out of secondary-schooling, which is the prime reason that either they have no job or they do have one at a pittance-salary.

That is no reason whatsoever to ransack downtown stores that are run by ordinary people trying to make a living ...

PS: The use of both fragmentation and tear-gas grenades was brought before a court in Paris. The court found for the government and so they will continue to be employed.

 

[Evilroddy]

You fail to mention the multi-million dollar damage that the Yellow-Jackets sparked. Not necessarily themselves, but the fact that ordinary hoodlums mixed in with them and then started ransacking stores. The damages were in the multi-millions of euros.

And for what? To show the world how pissed off they were? Most are really ignorant people who barely made it out of secondary-schooling, which is the prime reason that either they have no job or they do have one at a pittance-salary.

That is no reason whatsoever to ransack downtown stores that are run by ordinary people trying to make a living ...

PS: The use of both fragmentation and tear-gas grenades was brought before a court in Paris. The court found for the government and so they will continue to be employed.

Lafayette:

Your comments and rhetorical questions remind me of the spirit of the apocryphal words attributed to Queen Marie Antoinette many years after the revolutionary authorities had shortened her by a head's length. The Fifth Republic should use caution and should adapt its policies to the new realities of the "post-work" poor and the still-working but over-taxed poor, if they don't want to see the bloody birth of the Sixth Republic occur around them. Mr. Macron needs to be very careful and very creative right now or France could plunge into economic and social collapse in the next twenty years or so. I wonder if there is a young, pugnacious Corsican-born artillery officer or tanker watching this all unfold at Samur? I wonder what her name is?

"Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : "Qu’ils mangent de la brioche!"." - Jean Jacques Rousseau - Confessions. (Finally, I recalled the stop-gap solution of a great princess, who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded, "Let them eat cake/brioche.")

I wish the people of France well and hope that they can get through this very difficult time intact and with a new and fairly distributed prosperity.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Lafayette]

Lafayette:

Your comments and rhetorical questions remind me of the spirit of the apocryphal words attributed to Queen Marie Antoinette many years after the revolutionary authorities had shortened her by a head's length. The Fifth Republic should use caution and should adapt its policies to the new realities of the "post-work" poor and the still-working but over-taxed poor, if they don't want to see the bloody birth of the Sixth Republic occur around them. Mr. Macron needs to be very careful and very creative right now or France could plunge into economic and social collapse in the next twenty years or so. I wonder if there is a young, pugnacious Corsican-born artillery officer or tanker watching this all unfold at Samur? I wonder what her name is?

"Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : "Qu’ils mangent de la brioche!"." - Jean Jacques Rousseau - Confessions. (Finally, I recalled the stop-gap solution of a great princess, who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded, "Let them eat cake/brioche.")

I wish the people of France well and hope that they can get through this very difficult time intact and with a new and fairly distributed prosperity.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Blah, blah, blah ...

 

[Westphalian]

Blah, blah, blah ...

Wow ..... a powerful response to Evilroddy :roll:.


I think someone from the Gilets Jaunes should declare themselves as the legitimate President, and demand fresh elections.


Precedents have been set

 

[Hawkeye10]

Wow ..... a powerful response to Evilroddy :roll:.


I think someone from the Gilets Jaunes should declare themselves as the legitimate President, and demand fresh elections.


Precedents have been set

There is something about you that I cant put my finger on....

Would you care to reveal your Secret Sauce?

What makes you special?

Prob Not.

 

[Lafayette]

I think someone from the Gilets Jaunes should declare themselves as the legitimate President, and demand fresh elections. Precedents have been set

Precedence or President ... ?