• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The French go OTT on the Champs Elysees

Would take a radical and massive shift in french society for Le Pen get elected. The numbers are against her.

1) She is under investigation for corruption...not sure she can run with a conviction.
2) The French left and right have traditionally banded together to defeat FN candidates in run offs.
3) She would have to be hitting near 40+% of the vote in the first round to even have a hope of winning. She got 21.3% in the last presidential election in the first round. Macron got 24%. In the second round she only got 33% while Macron got 66%.

So unless there is a change in election laws or a dramatic shift in French society... the Le Pen has no chance. She was lucky to get to the second round last time... we are talking over 1/3 of all french voters switching to FN.. not impossible but highly unlikely.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk

The last election, but Bolsonaro wouldn’t have won in Brazil even 5 years ago. Things change in politics, especially if problems persist and mainstream leaders consistently fail to deliver
 
You do understand that the lower the income disparity the better right?

Yes, but do you? Nope.

The US has the highest Income Disparity of any developed nation (unless you want to consider China a "developed nation").

So, what is your point. Income Disparity is Income UNFAIRNESS. It means that upper-income taxation is too effing low. And what did Donald Dork just do to pay-back those who financed his farce-of-a-campaign. He lowered them yet again worsening Income Disparity.

Raising upper-income taxation (along the lines of the UK - note the difference between Gini-after-taxation and Gini-before-taxation) would allow the US to offer two key national programs - National Healthcare and Tuition Paid Tertiary Education.

The former would assure that an obesity-prone America could raise its average life-expectancy, and the latter help people find jobs at higher pay-scale levels for which American companies must repeatedly go abroad to find talent.

Profits and stock-market prices are certainly not the summum bonum of one's existence on earth. They are just two indicators more often useless than beneficial to understanding Income Fairness ...

It would help if the Rabid Right got its arguments in good order. Because at the moment there is no sense to them whatsoever ... !
 
Lmao if anyone's replacing Macron it won't be a Le Pen. They're worse off than he is. And that's saying something.
 
From the Independent here: It’s not surprising that fuel protests in Paris turned violent – the French establishment has long ignored social inequality

Excerpt:


It's a bit of a shame that a movement to awaken the present misery of those low on the economic totem-pole in France has gone so awry. Their demands are legitimate, but they do not understand the the president of France (Macron) is doing his best.

France had a Socialist president last time around, who is a brainy do-nothing intellectual. He got elected because the previous President (from the Right) was also a do-nothing president. That makes ten-years (between both of them) that France, evidently "broken", has needed to be fixed.

But this president is evidently doing it in a way that hurts income for the bottom classes (who need income most just for daily living). His only mechanism, as in most countries, is his country's budget. And what the country lacks most is Internal Demand that creates jobs. Well, not enough and not soon enough. (The French are an impatient people.)

What most of the French do not understand is that the Treaty of Maastricht (that introduced the Euro) called for a maximum governmental deficit of not more than 3% of GDP. Today it is approaching 100%!

The EU Central Bank is getting skittish, and rightfully so. But, the French are not a people to suffer-in-silence as do the Germans (or Nordics).

Nope, they march right down the Champs-Elysees and wreak havoc on their way. Well, actually it was a bunch of nerdy young-adults with a grudge who did it - but, still ...


Just to correct you the French deficit is 2.8% GDP inside the target number, the debt is 97% GDP
https://www.ft.com/content/80eb373a-bff0-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7
https://tradingeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp
For comparison the US deficit is 3.4% GDP and the debt is 105%
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u...-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp
 
LePen is under investigation by the EU for illegal procedures in her parliamentary office located in Strasbourg. Apparently her office there was being subsidized for workers who were actually in her party's Parisian head-office. Which is illegal according to the established rules.

The next election in France is going to be without LePen ... ?



You hope.

But not the least bit evident in a country that is politically highly fickle ...

I doubt LePen will suffer any. And although you're right about the French being fickle, they also hate allot of the things Macron stands for.
 
Nonsense. All the money in the world cannot buy the people's will as expressed at the ballot-box. Which is happening only uniquely in the EU.

The US elections have been "bought" (lock, stock and barrel) over the past two centuries by both Gerrymandering and recently unlimited funding of mostly stoopid TV commercials as if electing a politician was like selling soap-powder that claimed it "washed whiter than white!"

Stoopid is a stoopid does ...

I agree that Citizens United is "stoopid".

As for the peoples' will...may I introduce you to Austria? How about the fact that Merkel has decided to not run for Chancellor again? Or the Central European nations calling the EU on their grand bluff to "chastise" them for not taking any refugees? Or the will of the British to leave the EU?

No my friend...the EU, as we know it today, is in its death throes. Nationalism is sweeping Europe. I predict the next French and German elections will bring coalitions that include the Nationalists. Then this Globalization effort/experiment can be undone, and all those refugees can be returned to their homes.
 
How about the fact that Merkel has decided to not run for Chancellor again? Or the Central European nations calling the EU on their grand bluff to "chastise" them for not taking any refugees? Or the will of the British to leave the EU?

°Merkel has been in office for a long, long time. She's tired, and wants to get on with her life after having proven amply well that a German female was just as good as any German male in running Germany.

°The "Central European nations" ARE a part of the EU. So, I don't understand what your comment actually means.

Germany is actually grateful for the manpower because a good many Germans are retiring and businesses had a problem finding people to replace them. The smaller nations in the ex-Communist countries don't have that problem because anybody in their right mind got out and went to Germany to work! So, with ample small-mindedness they put up the physical barriers just the Communists had done to keep them in! (See, history is always a good teaching venue!)

°The British want to leave the EU? They did two years ago. But, they have serious misgivings today.

A recent sounding of British sentiment as regards Brexit:
_103468545_good_deal_2-nc.png
 
I doubt LePen will suffer any. And although you're right about the French being fickle, they also hate allot of the things Macron stands for.

Yes, well, that is just YOUR point-of-view. The polls here in France are very sentimental.

Before the summer of this year they loved him and now they don't like him any more. Nothing has changed for Macron - he is just doing what his predecessor failed to do. Lower the budget-deficit. (Yes, maybe he should not have risen the price of petrol with taxes whilst it was already highly inflated - but the price is not more than it once was in 2004/5!)

The French Budget Deficit is at 100% of GDP and the Maastricht Rules that formulated the Euro stipulate (because the Germans insisted!) that country deficits never exceed 3% of GDP !!!!!

Macron will spend the rest of his presidency trying to bring that deficit down. Why? Because otherwise the French government is simply pushing the problem continually into the future and never solving it. What problem?

The French governments budget is close to 98% of GDP, which is far, far too high. So, he must get it down to more acceptable proportions. Germany is at 63% ...
 
Last edited:
The last election, but Bolsonaro wouldn’t have won in Brazil even 5 years ago. Things change in politics, especially if problems persist and mainstream leaders consistently fail to deliver

Brazil does not have a history of the left and right to band together to keep a party out.. France has.
 
°Merkel has been in office for a long, long time. She's tired, and wants to get on with her life after having proven amply well that a German female was just as good as any German male in running Germany.

°The "Central European nations" ARE a part of the EU. So, I don't understand what your comment actually means.

Germany is actually grateful for the manpower because a good many Germans are retiring and businesses had a problem finding people to replace them. The smaller nations in the ex-Communist countries don't have that problem because anybody in their right mind got out and went to Germany to work! So, with ample small-mindedness they put up the physical barriers just the Communists had done to keep them in! (See, history is always a good teaching venue!)

°The British want to leave the EU? They did two years ago. But, they have serious misgivings today.

A recent sounding of British sentiment as regards Brexit:
_103468545_good_deal_2-nc.png

:lamo
Ya you keep swallowing that fantasy dude.
Merkel's tired...
:lamo
And I'm sooo sure the women of Colon are "grateful" for the rapists.
:lamo

Its over and you just don't know it yet.
 
Yes, well, that is just YOUR point-of-view. The polls here in France are very sentimental.

Before the summer of this year they loved him and now they don't like him any more. Nothing has changed for Macron - he is just doing what his predecessor failed to do. Lower the budget-deficit. (Yes, maybe he should not have risen the price of petrol with taxes whilst it was already highly inflated - but the price is not more than it once was in 2004/5!)

The French Budget Deficit is at 100% of GDP and the Maastricht Rules that formulated the Euro stipulate (because the Germans insisted!) that country deficits never exceed 3% of GDP !!!!!

Macron will spend the rest of his presidency trying to bring that deficit down. Why? Because otherwise the French government is simply pushing the problem continually into the future and never solving it. What problem?

The French governments budget is close to 98% of GDP, which is far, far too high. So, he must get it down to more acceptable proportions. Germany is at 63% ...

By taxing the crap outta people who have nothing left to give.
Ya...Macron's toast. French toast with cinnamon on it...
 
Lafayette:

Raise money with luxury taxes, higher progressive income tax rates, higher capital gains tax rates done in concert with the whole EU, banking profits surtaxes. Also enforce tax laws while using the French secret service to penetrate and expose off-shore trusts used by French citizens and corporations to hide money from the taxman. Increasing petrol costs by 16% in one year in which the bottom has dropped out of oil prices, while French real wages are stagnant or decreasing is just punishing the poor for the malfeasance of those French persons who are rich enough or well connected enough politically to bilk the French exchequer out of billions of Euros per year. To do otherwise may invite another 1789.

Salut.
Mechantroddy.

That's what I love about the left, the programaticly predictable:

05 Start Program
10 Raise luxury taxes
20 Raise progressive taxes
30 Raise capital gains taxes
40 Increase Secret Service Covert Activity
50 Evaluate Results
60 If Economy < PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05
70 If Economy > PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05 Anyway
 
That's what I love about the left, the programaticly predictable:

05 Start Program
10 Raise luxury taxes
20 Raise progressive taxes
30 Raise capital gains taxes
40 Increase Secret Service Covert Activity
50 Evaluate Results
60 If Economy < PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05
70 If Economy > PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05 Anyway

Maxparrish:

The position is not leftist from a French perspective. It is just basic maths. The French public will revolt, perhaps violently, if the Macron Government attempts to dismantle the Fremch welfare state. The French elites are too entrenched and powerful to end or significantly reduce the corporate and cultural transfers made to businesses and institutions. Thus cutting the budget can only deliver small savings and very marginal deficit/debt relief. If you cannot meaningfully reduce expenditures without destroying the Fifth Republic by uprising and you can't continue deficit financing because of EU limits (which France is way beyond anyway), then the only alternative is to raise more revenues to reduce the deficit while maintaining your locked in high expenditures. It's not leftist, it's only pragmatic. Now who can afford to pay for the increased revenues needed to keep the Fifth Republic afloat. Not the unemployed, not the working-poor, not the lower and middle middle-class unless you want to squeeze out consumer demand and choke off the demand side of the economy. So you are left with the upper middle class and the very rich plus very profitable corporations to foot the bill. Thus the higher progressive taxes, the higher capital gains taxes, the surtaxes on the most profitable corporations if they make big profits, and closing down off-shore trust tax hideaways.

All of this would not be necessary if the French could agree on an austerity programme which was sustainable and fairly applied to all income levels based on their means to pay, but even the centrists in France are ideologically to the left of most Americans and thus the French people will not support (and may rebel against) a draconian set of cut backs or tax hikes. The French Republic has already collapsed into ruins four times. If Macron isn't careful, then it may collapse for a fifth time, or swing strongly leftist for a generation or so. The French populace is not meek like American workers have become. They will destroy France rather than accepting such meekness. Swing too far in one direction and the Communists will take power. Swing too far the other way and Le Pin and her ilk will take power.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
So, Macron has scrapped the carbon tax entirely. Protests were scheduled to fire up again on Sat.
 
So, Macron has scrapped the carbon tax entirely. Protests were scheduled to fire up again on Sat.

He's trying to save his own skin now.
Where all that high talk about what's necessary?
:lamo
 
???? that site says debt is 97.7% doesnt change the fact that the deficit is still Under 3%

For your edification, regarding the Maastricht Criteria for debt-management (from here):
The focus of this post is on the relationship between the two indicators of the fiscal criterion as defined in Article 126(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, according to which the Member States “shall avoid excessive government deficits” and comply with the “budgetary discipline” on the basis of the maximum reference values of the (planned or actual) government deficit to GDP (at market prices) ratio and government debt to GDP ratio.

The Protocol on the excessive deficit procedure of the Treaty specifies these reference values to be 3% and 60%, respectively. The figure above illustrates the Maastricht definition of the government debt ratio for 22 advanced countries for the year of 2016 (Source: OECD Economic Outlook 101 database). In particular, it clearly shows that 68% of the listed countries (i.e. 15 countries) do not comply with the Maastricht debt criterion.

For the moment, the EU prefers to remain ignorant of the National Debt Limits. But, I underscore the fact they are a matter of an "international treaty agreement" amongst the Maastricht-Agreement countries.

Whyzzat? Because allowing unlimited debt allows countries - for whatever the reason - to incur debt and walk-away thinking "it doesn't really matter". We just keep rolling it over. Debt matters - rolled or unrolled!

From here: Top Ten Reasons Why Debt Matters:
Excerpt:

Does debt matter?

*It depends on how it is financed – e.g. does it rely on overseas borrowing which can be riskier?
*What are the prospects for economic growth? – With economic growth, the debt to GDP ratio is likely to fall. If you are stuck in recession, the debt to GDP ratio will likely rise.
*Are domestic investors willing to buy government bonds? Japan has very large public sector debt, but it has a large pool of domestic savings so the government has been able to borrow cheaply.
*Is the debt cyclical or structural? Debt is a bigger problem if the government is borrowing heavily during a period of growth and there is a structural deficit.

Economic stability would involve:
*Low inflation
*Positive, sustainable economic growth (e.g. close to long-run trend rate of growth)
*Stable bond yields (i.e. avoid rapidly rising bond yields which could create difficulty in dealing with debt.)
*Stable exchange rates

High fiscal deficits mean the government is forced to borrow a large sum – Annual government spending is greater than tax revenues.

The above demonstrates that "national debt is a mechanism" that must be managed. Also, that a positive growth GDP helps government revenues manage the debt. Because governments have a tendency to borrow from money-markets to do so.

But because of that last fact, governments must oversee money-markets in order to assure that they remain within manageable guidelines. Which, despite the fact that Germany knows how to do that, it was unable (through the ECB) to implement any discipline whatsoever across EU-euro countries. (The euro being the dominating central currency in the "EU EuroZone".)

Meaning what? Countries that are undisciplined threaten the entire Euro-structure. When one starts going awry, other national managements are enticed to follow - unless EU Commission comes down strongly upon their heads (of state) ... !

FURTHERMORE:
*Greece is the most notable of all EU budget-transgressors because the Greeks and their companies have always held the majority of their holdings outside of Greece in European currencies. Thus such borrowing (for usage in Greece) never showed up in the National Debt accumulation figures. By the time the EU found out, it was too late. Greece had been admitted as a member. (But neither - as a result - is the EU showing them any particular favoritism. The pain is not in Spain but in Greece, and it will take a long, long time for them to get out of the very deep debt-hole they are in (as seen here).
*The only good thing about the Greek debt-management failure is that it has been a Significant Lesson to other EU euro-sone countries. That is, Don't Allow Nationals To Do What the Rich Greek Families Did With Their Money!
 
Last edited:
By taxing the crap outta people who have nothing left to give.
Ya...Macron's toast. French toast with cinnamon on it...

One-liner nonsense. The French live very, very well for a country that has a yearly work-hour level on the low-side.

See this info-graphic here and note that France is on the shorter side of annual work-hour levels (to the left). Along with Germany that has EVEN SHORTER WORK-HOURS!

But there are no national demonstrations in Germany!


Not yet, at least ...
 
:lamo
Ya you keep swallowing that fantasy dude.
Merkel's tired...
:lamo
And I'm sooo sure the women of Colon are "grateful" for the rapists.


Its over and you just don't know it yet.

Rubbish! Moving right along ...
 
That's what I love about the left, the programaticly predictable:

05 Start Program
10 Raise luxury taxes
20 Raise progressive taxes
30 Raise capital gains taxes
40 Increase Secret Service Covert Activity
50 Evaluate Results
60 If Economy < PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05
70 If Economy > PREVIOUS GDP Goto Line 05 Anyway

You are all mentally masturbating on an economic premise that simply does not exist.

Have fun whilst the sensation lasts ...
 
For your edification, regarding the Maastricht Criteria for debt-management (from here):


For the moment, the EU prefers to remain ignorant of the National Debt Limits. But, I underscore the fact they are a matter of an "international treaty agreement" amongst the Maastricht-Agreement countries.

Whyzzat? Because allowing unlimited debt allows countries - for whatever the reason - to incur debt and walk-away thinking "it doesn't really matter". We just keep rolling it over. Debt matters - rolled or unrolled!

From here: Top Ten Reasons Why Debt Matters:
Excerpt:



The above demonstrates that "national debt is a mechanism" that must be managed. Also, that a positive growth GDP helps government revenues manage the debt. Because governments have a tendency to borrow from money-markets to do so.

But because of that last fact, governments must oversee money-markets in order to assure that they remain within manageable guidelines. Which, despite the fact that Germany knows how to do that, it was unable (through the ECB) to implement any discipline whatsoever across EU-euro countries. (The euro being the dominating central currency in the "EU EuroZone".)

Meaning what? Countries that are undisciplined threaten the entire Euro-structure. When one starts going awry, other national managements are enticed to follow - unless EU Commission comes down strongly upon their heads (of state) ... !

FURTHERMORE:
*Greece is the most notable of all EU budget-transgressors because the Greeks and their companies have always held the majority of their holdings outside of Greece in European currencies. Thus such borrowing (for usage in Greece) never showed up in the National Debt accumulation figures. By the time the EU found out, it was too late. Greece had been admitted as a member. (But neither - as a result - is the EU showing them any particular favoritism. The pain is not in Spain but in Greece, and it will take a long, long time for them to get out of the very deep debt-hole they are in (as seen here).
*The only good thing about the Greek debt-management failure is that it has been a Significant Lesson to other EU euro-sone countries. That is, Don't Allow Nationals To Do What the Rich Greek Families Did With Their Money!

What most of the French do not understand is that the Treaty of Maastricht (that introduced the Euro) called for a maximum governmental deficit of not more than 3% of GDP. Today it is approaching 100%!

Again:
the French deficit is 2.8% GDP, the debt is 97% GDP
https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi.../content/80eb373a-bff0-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7
https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi...ngeconomics.com/france/government-debt-to-gdp
For comparison the US deficit is 3.4% GDP and the debt is 105%
https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi...-top-1-trillion-starting-next-year-2018-07-19
https://www.debatepolitics.com/redi...mics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with me. All I am doing is pointing out the factual error in your OP
Deficit and debt are not the same things, the French deficit is not approaching 100% of GDP the debt is.
The USA is doing worse in terms of defitic/debt ratios to GDP
 
One-liner nonsense. The French live very, very well for a country that has a yearly work-hour level on the low-side.

See this info-graphic here and note that France is on the shorter side of annual work-hour levels (to the left). Along with Germany that has EVEN SHORTER WORK-HOURS!

But there are no national demonstrations in Germany!


Not yet, at least ...

Not yet, you mean.
But your thin excuses are noted.
 
Rubbish! Moving right along ...

Yes ignore what you know to be true. Maybe Macron will drop the carbon tax eh?
OOPS...that's exactly what he's done I believe?
 
Back
Top Bottom