The Foundation of Christianity

[Cordelier]

Atheists can be nice people too. I don't need a god to tell me how to live.

I never suggested otherwise. If religion doesn't fit you, then it doesn't fit you. Doesn't make you a bad person. Just a lonelier one.

 

[Daisy]

It definitely wan't Jesus because he never once said the Old Testament laws were not to be followed. Paul, who never once met Jesus and who used to arrest them saw that many people were still believers after Jesus died and simply jumped on the band wagon and became their pied piper. Paul knew that people didn't care for the restrictive OT laws and convinced them that Jesus was talking about a new religion and that Jesus didn't think the OT laws needed to be obeyed anymore. That was way cool with the people he recruited and the rest, as they say, is history.

It really should be called Paulianity.

Do you know what Jesus point was with these 2 illustrations?

“Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins.” Matthew 9:16, 17

Jesus is telling his followers they do not have to conform to the old practices of Judaism, such as ritual fasting...Jesus did not come to patch up and prolong the old way of worship because it was ready to be discarded...the worship that Jesus is encouraging in the above verses is not one that conforms to the Judaism of the day with its traditions of men nor is he trying to put a new patch on an old garment or new wine into a stiff, old wineskin...

 

[Exquisitor]

Pagan feasts are fun!

Right on zyzygy, we go to Church to be edified culturally.

 

[Exquisitor]

Why do Christians join in Halloween?

What Are the Pagan Roots of Halloween?
What Are the Pagan Roots of Halloween? | CBN.com

Jehovah Witnesses don't join in Halloween, and they think they are the only Christians.

 

[Exquisitor]

Atheists can be nice people too. I don't need a god to tell me how to live.

Atheists can live their lives according to the dictates of their heart and not be distracted by other people's deluded ideas of the Godhead.

 

[Daisy]

Jehovah Witnesses don't join in Halloween, and they think they are the only Christians.

Wrong...a Christian is one who obeys all the commands of God, one being to stay away from paganism...

"The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13

 

[Paradoxical]

Do you know what Jesus point was with these 2 illustrations?

“Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins.” Matthew 9:16, 17

Jesus is telling his followers they do not have to conform to the old practices of Judaism, such as ritual fasting...Jesus did not come to patch up and prolong the old way of worship because it was ready to be discarded...the worship that Jesus is encouraging in the above verses is not one that conforms to the Judaism of the day with its traditions of men nor is he trying to put a new patch on an old garment or new wine into a stiff, old wineskin...

I just love how humans read into things that which is not there. Not just with politics, nut with religion. This confirmation bias is amazing.

It's like someone trying to make a case for why the Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes COULD really be true.

What I would like you to do for me is find the words in your passage where Jesus says that no one has to follow OT laws when he himself said they will not pass until heaven and earth does.

 

[Daisy]

I just love how humans read into things that which is not there. Not just with politics, nut with religion. This confirmation bias is amazing.

It's like someone trying to make a case for why the Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes COULD really be true.

What I would like you to do for me is find the words in your passage where Jesus says that no one has to follow OT laws when he himself said they will not pass until heaven and earth does.

Um...verse 14, right above the 2 I just quoted...fasting was a part of the old law that the disciples did not partake in, among other Jewish rituals...:doh

"Then John’s disciples came to him (Jesus) and asked: “Why do we and the Pharisees practice fasting but your disciples do not fast?”

 

[Paradoxical]

Um...verse 14, right above the 2 I just quoted...fasting was a part of the old law that the disciples did not partake in, among other Jewish rituals...:doh

"Then John’s disciples came to him (Jesus) and asked: “Why do we and the Pharisees practice fasting but your disciples do not fast?”

And THAT means JESUS intended that all the OT laws were abolished?? Seriously?

 

[Daisy]

And THAT means JESUS intended that all the OT laws were abolished?? Seriously?

The power of reason skipped you, I see...:roll:

 

[Paradoxical]

The power of reason skipped you, I see...:roll:

Elvira, I used to debate Christianity almost exclusively...for decades. I gave up because of posts such as yours where people would contort words and passages to mold them inr=to what theyu wanted to believe. NOWHERE will you find that Jesus abolished any OT laws. For that matter, you find that he insisted they will never be abolished.

And yet, those who practice Paulianity ignore THOSE specific passages and cite passages that have ZERO to do with abolishing any laws and if that fails, they will use the words of PAUL, who was never an apostle, never met him, and just CLAIMED a vision, After that, they will tell someone like myself who challenges them that is it not they who doesn't have reason but the one that points out what JESUS said who has the problem.

Even though you are undisclosed, from your postings you are a leftist which is strange for a devout Christian generally. But, I note that leftist have adopted the Christian apologetic method where we must ignore what something says and read into it what is claimed to be IMPLIED based on the interpretation that someone else wants to apply to the wording, no matter how skewed of tortured that reading is. Reading posts such as yours where someone tries to claim black is really white became so maddening to me, I stopped debating with Christians.

 

[Daisy]

Elvira, I used to debate Christianity almost exclusively...for decades. I gave up because of posts such as yours where people would contort words and passages to mold them inr=to what theyu wanted to believe. NOWHERE will you find that Jesus abolished any OT laws. For that matter, you find that he insisted they will never be abolished.

And yet, those who practice Paulianity ignore THOSE specific passages and cite passages that have ZERO to do with abolishing any laws and if that fails, they will use the words of PAUL, who was never an apostle, never met him, and just CLAIMED a vision, After that, they will tell someone like myself who challenges them that is it not they who doesn't have reason but the one that points out what JESUS said who has the problem.

Even though you are undisclosed, from your postings you are a leftist which is strange for a devout Christian generally. But, I note that leftist have adopted the Christian apologetic method where we must ignore what something says and read into it what is claimed to be IMPLIED based on the interpretation that someone else wants to apply to the wording, no matter how skewed of tortured that reading is. Reading posts such as yours where someone tries to claim black is really white became so maddening to me, I stopped debating with Christians.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...and no, I am not a" leftist", as you call it...I am a Christian, in other words, I am apolitical...

 

[Paradoxical]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...and no, I am not a" leftist", as you call it...I am a Christian, in other words, I am apolitical...

Keep showing me why I stopped discussing things with rabid Christians. Makes me happy.

 

[Daisy]

Keep showing me why I stopped discussing things with rabid Christians. Makes me happy.

lol...let me know when that actually happens, will ya?:2razz:

 

[RAMOSS]

Probably because it was stolen from the pagans in the 1st place...:2razz:

Much of the New Testament was. Like, the concept of the literal 'son of god'. Hercules beat Jesus out by decades.

 

[Cordelier]

And THAT means JESUS intended that all the OT laws were abolished?? Seriously?

Are you seriously arguing that no daylight should exist between Christianity and Judaism? Because the way I understand it, Christianity embraces the teachings of Jesus without adopting the culture of Judaism, while Judaism obviously does the opposite.

 

[Paradoxical]

Are you seriously arguing that no daylight should exist between Christianity and Judaism? Because the way I understand it, Christianity embraces the teachings of Jesus without adopting the culture of Judaism, while Judaism obviously does the opposite.

No. I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and taught that the OT was the law and that the OT laws would NEVER go away even if heaven and earth passed.

It was Paul and only Paul that made up the story that the law died on the cross because he wanted to invent a gentler religion. Those who think they are Christians are really Paulians. He invented the whole thing. So when someone says they are a believer, what they believe in is that someone who never met Jesus and was not one of the 12 apostles, really did have a vision that no one else ever corroborated in a time when visions were a dime a dozen.

 

[Cordelier]

No. I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and taught that the OT was the law and that the OT laws would NEVER go away even if heaven and earth passed.

It was Paul and only Paul that made up the story that the law died on the cross because he wanted to invent a gentler religion. Those who think they are Christians are really Paulians. He invented the whole thing. So when someone says they are a believer, what they believe in is that someone who never met Jesus and was not one of the 12 apostles, really did have a vision that no one else ever corroborated in a time when visions were a dime a dozen.

But when Jesus said OT laws would never go away, he was referring to their application to Judaism, was he not?

Don't get me wrong here... I've got my own issues with some of Paul's teachings, and I too think they receive too much importance within Christianity... I just question what Jesus' real intention was - did he intend for Jews to become more like what Christians came to be? Or did he intend something more along the opposite lines?

I've got a feeling neither Christianity nor Judaism ever quite fell into line with what Jesus actually intended.

 

[Daisy]

No. I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and taught that the OT was the law and that the OT laws would NEVER go away even if heaven and earth passed.

It was Paul and only Paul that made up the story that the law died on the cross because he wanted to invent a gentler religion. Those who think they are Christians are really Paulians. He invented the whole thing. So when someone says they are a believer, what they believe in is that someone who never met Jesus and was not one of the 12 apostles, really did have a vision that no one else ever corroborated in a time when visions were a dime a dozen.

Both of those things are lies...

"But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers." Matthew 23:8

Christian is a God-given name for the followers of Jesus Christ.​..

"After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians."Acts 11:26

 

[Paradoxical]

But when Jesus said OT laws would never go away, he was referring to their application to Judaism, was he not?

Don't get me wrong here... I've got my own issues with some of Paul's teachings, and I too think they receive too much importance within Christianity... I just question what Jesus' real intention was - did he intend for Jews to become more like what Christians came to be? Or did he intend something more along the opposite lines?

I've got a feeling neither Christianity nor Judaism ever quite fell into line with what Jesus actually intended.

I have extracted the verses that came before and after 5:18 and if someone can show me where JESUS was referring ONLY to to application of OT law to Judaism, I am all ears.

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (In spite of what some apologists say, fulfill does not mean to cancel them. It just means to do them or abide by them in this case)
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here he is saying that no can set aside even the most minor of these commands (laws) and those that teach the laws will be called great)
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[watsup]

I have extracted the verses that came before and after 5:18 and if someone can show me where JESUS was referring ONLY to to application of OT law to Judaism, I am all ears.

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (In spite of what some apologists say, fulfill does not mean to cancel them. It just means to do them or abide by them in this case)
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here he is saying that no can set aside even the most minor of these commands (laws) and those that teach the laws will be called great)
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven

Hmmm....iit is very interesting that Jesus said that, because especially Protestants claim that it is “only by faith” and not by good deeds that a Christian can enter the kingdom of heaven. Are they disagreeing with Jesus?

 

[Cordelier]

I have extracted the verses that came before and after 5:18 and if someone can show me where JESUS was referring ONLY to to application of OT law to Judaism, I am all ears.

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (In spite of what some apologists say, fulfill does not mean to cancel them. It just means to do them or abide by them in this case)
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here he is saying that no can set aside even the most minor of these commands (laws) and those that teach the laws will be called great)
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I think you're confusing the OT medium with the NT message, though. Fulfillment of the law means heeding Jesus's message - it transcends the OT laws, hence verse 20. The Pharisees rigorously stuck to the letter of the law... Jesus' argument was that the spirit of the law should prevail.

 

[Paradoxical]

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven

Hmmm....iit is very interesting that Jesus said that, because especially Protestants claim that it is “only by faith” and not by good deeds that a Christian can enter the kingdom of heaven. Are they disagreeing with Jesus?

There are so many different denominations, they are hard to keep track of, so it depends on who you ask and the day of the week. People just make **** up and get others to believe their crap. Someone really closely related to me was a devout Christian and found what is called Hebrew Roots and fell head over heals for it to where now she won't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and follows Jewish laws and rules, to the extent of not doing anything on the weekends. Look it up. It's whacked out. Thing is, before this, she was certain Christianity was it.

The same thing holds true with every single person here. They gravitate to that which resonates with them and claim it as the truth not for reasons of logic and common sense but because someone told them it was true and they adopted that belief because they liked it and in the case of religion for NO reason other than they think they will get off earth alive if they just believe the right way.

 

[Paradoxical]

I think you're confusing the OT medium with the NT message, though. Fulfillment of the law means heeding Jesus's message - it transcends the OT laws, hence verse 20. The Pharisees rigorously stuck to the letter of the law... Jesus' argument was that the spirit of the law should prevail.

Do you see "spirit of the law" written anywhere in 20?

 

[Daisy]

I have extracted the verses that came before and after 5:18 and if someone can show me where JESUS was referring ONLY to to application of OT law to Judaism, I am all ears.

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (In spite of what some apologists say, fulfill does not mean to cancel them. It just means to do them or abide by them in this case)
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Here he is saying that no can set aside even the most minor of these commands (laws) and those that teach the laws will be called great)
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

You obviously have no understanding whatsoever of the word fulfillment...