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The Flag Nation Or Govt.

JOHNYJ

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To most Americans the Flag represents the Nation ! it only represents the govt. in a secondary sense.
To most Americans the Stars & Stripes Represents America ! The people who have fought and died to create ,the United States of America !
Liberals are the only people who emphasize its representing the govt.. Usualy so they can insult it.
That is one reason they just do not understand why many people want to make burning it a crime.
When you burn a flag you are insulting the Nation,all its people and all the people that died to make it a nation.
 

cnredd

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galenrox said:
I completely agree, 100%. I believe full heartedly that the flag represents what America is supposed to be, and what people have fought and died for to give it the potential to be, not what it currently is. I never have and never will burn a flag, because I would view that as more of a **** you to the ideal than to the actual government.
But that's our interpretation, not everyone's, and the ability to freely express yourself should not ever be abridged. If we abridge the right to protest, then it's no longer a "sure this is no big deal, but what's next", slippery slope sort of problem, it's THE problem. The government works for us, and can you imagine having an employee that set up a system where you could not tell him your opinion on how well he's doing his job?
I wonder what ever happened to this....

Someone in the House had the idea of proposing a bill that said that US flags can only be made out of inflammable materials...
 

Nemo

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The Congress should change our national emblem from the bald eagle to the turkey; which is much more representative of Americans.

"For my own part I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen the Representative of our Country. He is a Bird of bad moral Character. He does not get his Living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead Tree near the River, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the Labour of the Fishing Hawk; and when that diligent Bird has at length taken a Fish, and is bearing it to his Nest for the Support of his Mate and young Ones, the Bald Eagle pursues him and takes it from him.

"With all this Injustice, he is never in good Case but like those among Men who live by Sharping & Robbing he is generally poor and often very lousy. Besides he is a rank Coward: The little King Bird not bigger than a Sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the District. He is therefore by no means a proper Emblem for the brave and honest Cincinnati of America who have driven all the King birds from our Country . . .

"I am on this account not displeased that the Figure is not known as a Bald Eagle, but looks more like a Turkey. For the Truth the Turkey is in Comparison a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America . . . He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on."

- Benjamin Franklin
 
H

HTColeman

I wouldn't burn the flag because it is a slap in the face and a bit extreme. But if you take away the right to burn the flag on the basis of what it stands for, you would be in fact going against what it stands for.

Nemo,

That is not stealing, it is taking advantage of an opportunity. And what about the fish? Did the fishing hawk not kill the innocent fish? The Eagle didn't kill the fishing hawk.

Besides, people eat turkeys, nobody eats bald eagles.
 

Datamonkee

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HTColeman said:
I wouldn't burn the flag because it is a slap in the face and a bit extreme. But if you take away the right to burn the flag on the basis of what it stands for, you would be in fact going against what it stands for.

No, we still have laws based on respect. You cannot legally use vulgarity in public places, though it is not often enforced. You cannot wander the streets naked. You cannot protest or picket without authorization, and when you do, you cannot block access to those businesses. I find disrespecting the Flag extremely offensive. It symbolizes the lives that were given to give you freedom. With that freedom comes a responsibility to respect and honor those that fought and died for you. If a person does not have the capacity or desire to respect that, we should enact laws to protect the Flag.
 

Nemo

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The turkey is most representative of Americans because it is the stupidest bird in the world. And that's why we need an amendment to the Constitution to ban eating turkeys!
 
H

HTColeman

Datamonkee said:
HTColeman said:
I wouldn't burn the flag because it is a slap in the face and a bit extreme. But if you take away the right to burn the flag on the basis of what it stands for, you would be in fact going against what it stands for.

No, we still have laws based on respect. You cannot legally use vulgarity in public places, though it is not often enforced. You cannot wander the streets naked. You cannot protest or picket without authorization, and when you do, you cannot block access to those businesses. I find disrespecting the Flag extremely offensive. It symbolizes the lives that were given to give you freedom. With that freedom comes a responsibility to respect and honor those that fought and died for you. If a person does not have the capacity or desire to respect that, we should enact laws to protect the Flag.
But those are not Constitional laws, those are state laws, which are quite different. To add an amendment to burn the flag would be to condradict the 1st amendment of freedom of speech. You can't have a contradicting Constitution.
 

Datamonkee

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HTColeman said:
Datamonkee said:
But those are not Constitional laws, those are state laws, which are quite different. To add an amendment to burn the flag would be to condradict the 1st amendment of freedom of speech. You can't have a contradicting Constitution.
That is one of the most misused Amendments in the entire Constitution. There is no freedom of speech. You still cannot print whatever you want to, wherever you want to. You still cannot paint pictures of whatever you want to, wherever you want to. You cannot talk of bombing or hijacking planes in an airport. You cannot use racist slurs. Those are state laws that have given guidelines to the Constitution. You have the right to bare arms, but you cannot purchase grenades, automatic weapons, tank shells, or missiles legally.
There should be something that protects the Flag from people that are too ignorant or crass to realize it's meaning.
 

C.J.

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Datamonkee said:
You cannot use racist slurs.
Why not??

Datamonkee said:
Those are state laws that have given guidelines to the Constitution.
Do what?????

Datamonkee said:
You have the right to bare arms, but you cannot purchase grenades, automatic weapons, tank shells, or missiles legally.
Sure you can.
 
H

HTColeman

The first amendment does apply. If you feel that a State law is truly unreasonable, take it to the court house.
 

Datamonkee

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You cannot legally buy those armaments. You cannot legally use racial slurs, they are considered verbal assault.
I don't feel that those laws are wrong, my point is that there are several things that are protected because they are dangerous or offensive to the majority of people. The First Amendment is abused. I guarantee that when it was written, our forefathers had no idea that it would be used to denigrate the very symbols of our country. Is it because people had more respect and honor then than they do now? Better moral/ethical values? A deeper respect for the lives lost to make those symbols stand for freedom? I think so. A Christian who disagrees with his church doesn't stack a pile of Bibles or crosses in the front lawn and burn them. Lawyers that disagree with a law don't pile law books and gavels in front of court houses to burn them. Why is it Americans feel that they can burn the Flag as a protest when it is the people in the government that were voted in do things they do not like. What right do they have to defile the symbols of this country? Burn a likeness of the congressman you dislike, or the President you dislike, leave my Flag alone. The terrorist in the middle east burn our Flag because they hate us, and it symbolizes what and who we are. If you feel you need to burn the Flag to make a point, I say move your disrespectful, ungrateful a$$ to Palestine, Iraq, or Iran and burn all the Flags you want with the rest of those that hate our country.
 

Arch Enemy

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JOHNYJ said:
! The people who have fought and died to create ,the United States of America
The people who have fought and died to create America.. those people weren't fighting for their selves! They were fighting to have the ability to have a more fair government. The revolutionary war was so America could establish it's own government... so in a sense, they weren't fighting for their selves they were fighting with the hope to have their own government.

So they fought for the flag and for the government.

chinese-school.netfirms.com/other-article-flags.html said:
Today, every country in the world has a flag. As governments change, so do their flags.
 
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C.J.

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Datamonkee said:
You cannot legally buy those armaments.
Sure you can. The National Firearms Act and subsequent laws defines Title II weaoons (Machineguns), weapons classified as "Any Other Weapon," and "Destructive devices," and spells out the procedure for purchasing and possessing. Certain taxes and licenses are involved, but one can legally buy them.

Datamonkee said:
You cannot legally use racial slurs, they are considered verbal assault.
No it's not. For instance calling a Black person a "Nigger" is in bad taste, but is in no way a violent verbal attack, and does not threaten him in any manner. It's not a First Amendment issue, because the First applies to what the government cannot do, as well as the states via the Fourteenth, not to what individuals can or cannot do.


Datamonkee said:
I don't feel that those laws are wrong, my point is that there are several things that are protected because they are dangerous or offensive to the majority of people. The First Amendment is abused. I guarantee that when it was written, our forefathers had no idea that it would be used to denigrate the very symbols of our country.
On this I tend to agree somewhat. The purpose of the BOR's was to enumerate certain "rights," in order to protect the people from the government, and then along came the Fourteenth Amendment, which bound the states to the same rules. Then the SCOTUS informally amends the First Amendment to include expression, and here we are. Since these things were done, Your belief or opinion (And mine as well) doesn't have even the stump of a leg to stand on.

Sorry
 

tanenger

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After the past four and a half years, it should be painfully obvious that out constitution is little more that a statement of wishful thinking.
A person or group with enough backing can modify, change, or declare obsolete any provision of the document they are opposed to. The current administration is doing exactly that; just as they have in regard to world laws. All they need to do is to declare any decisions a matter of security and they don't even have to explain it to the citizenry. This administration has even gone so far as to defy the courts on these matters.
My concern for the country-not the people- they can eat cake for all I care- is that
the natural enviornment is about to be destroyed. And this bunch has built up enough power that they can and will put whomever they want in the office in 2008 to propetuate the disaster.
 

Mikkel

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I'm going to use one of my favorite quotes from The West Wing (I know, but still, it's a good one):

"Is there an epidemic of flag burning that I'm unaware of?"
-Jeb Bartlett
 

C.J.

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tanenger said:
After the past four and a half years, it should be painfully obvious that out constitution is little more that a statement of wishful thinking.
A person or group with enough backing can modify, change, or declare obsolete any provision of the document they are opposed to. The current administration is doing exactly that; just as they have in regard to world laws. All they need to do is to declare any decisions a matter of security and they don't even have to explain it to the citizenry. This administration has even gone so far as to defy the courts on these matters.
My concern for the country-not the people- they can eat cake for all I care- is that
the natural enviornment is about to be destroyed. And this bunch has built up enough power that they can and will put whomever they want in the office in 2008 to propetuate the disaster.
You and I are probably on the same trail here, but I believe I may be going somewhat slower than you are. I don't believe it's just about power being built up, but unfortunately enough people are gullible enough to confuse patriotism and nationalism and conflate the definition with security. This then added to the power base of a politician with the same confusion does tend to dilute the Constitution, but make no mistake, the dilution process has been going on for a hell of a lot longer than the past four and a half years.
 

Alastor

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JOHNYJ said:
To most Americans the Flag represents the Nation ! it only represents the govt. in a secondary sense.
To most Americans the Stars & Stripes Represents America ! The people who have fought and died to create ,the United States of America !
Liberals are the only people who emphasize its representing the govt.. Usualy so they can insult it.
That is one reason they just do not understand why many people want to make burning it a crime.
When you burn a flag you are insulting the Nation,all its people and all the people that died to make it a nation.
If your idea of your nation can be sumarized by a flag, then you miss the point of the concept of a nation.

A flag is a symbol, sure. Just as was the WTC, the Grand Canyon, Washington Monument, The USS Constitution (that's a ship, folks, not a document).

Those things mean something, a lot actually... but they're not everything. There are precious few material items that I think can embody our nation.

Here's my list:

The Declaration of Independence
The Constitution of the United States of America
The Bill of Rights
The Federalist Papers

And that's... about it. And I'm not even opposed to copies of those documents being burned. The originals have historical value, so I'd hate to see something happen to those... but the world would go on.

I mean I don't like it, and if someone wants to stay my friend they won't do it, but it is indeed their right to burn those things. A flag is not a nation - that's not what makes our country strong. The right to burn that flag however, is.

I don't like it. It makes me mad. But I would die for other people to have the right to offend me in this manner.
 
H

HTColeman

Alastor said:
Here's my list:

The Declaration of Independence
The Constitution of the United States of America
The Bill of Rights
The Federalist Papers

And that's... about it. And I'm not even opposed to copies of those documents being burned. The originals have historical value, so I'd hate to see something happen to those... but the world would go on.
Seeing as how the gov't is evil, I would be against the burning of those documents. Say they burn the Bill of Rights, then the gov't "rewrites" them and changes them, but no one can prove them wrong because there are no originals. You just can't trust the gov't to do anything other than what you tell it to.
 

Youve Got To Be Kidding!

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Im in favor of not burning the flag. Ive got a better idea. Standing in intersections and ******** on it. I think fesces is more appropriate.

Flag represents the government institution behind it. Wich has nothing to do with its citizens.
 
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