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The fire in Canada looks a lot like climate change -- and that should scare you

iguanaman

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The Alberta wildfire looks a lot like Earth warning us not to dig those tar sands up. It has wiped out all the homes built there in the last few years for the tar sands workers. It is so big it is creating its own weather.

(CNN)The fire raging in Fort McMurray, Canada sounds like something from the apocalypse.

"It was like driving through hell," Michel Chamberland told CNN of his escape from the area. "Those flames, they were bright, they were big ... It's unreal. It's almost like a dream or something."
The fire, which has burned at least 325 square miles, forcing the evacuation of some 88,000 people, is so hot and so intense that's it's formed its own weather. The thundercloud produced by the blaze actually is creating its own lightning, and consequently spreading the fire's rage, setting more trees alight.
True, there have been fires in Canada's boreal forest for ages. But scientists and researchers say this fire looks a whole lot like climate change. And that should be alarming for all of us.
Canada fire: This looks like climate change - CNN.com
 

jamesrage

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The Alberta wildfire looks a lot like Earth warning us not to dig those tar sands up. It has wiped out all the homes built there in the last few years for the tar sands workers. It is so big it is creating its own weather.


Canada fire: This looks like climate change - CNN.com

Before you go jumping on the eco-tard band wagon.
Fire ecology | Natural Resources Canada

In boreal forests, the complete opposite is true. Fires are frequent and their ecological influence at all levels—species, stand and landscape—drives boreal forest vegetation dynamics. This in turn affects the movement of wildlife populations, whose need for food and cover means they must relocate as the forest patterns change.
The boreal: A forest shaped by fire

The Canadian boreal forest is a mosaic of species and stands. It ranges in composition from pure deciduous and mixed deciduous-coniferous to pure coniferous stands.

The diversity of the forest mosaic is largely the result of many fires occurring on the landscape over a long period of time. These fires have varied in frequency, intensity, severity, size, shape and season of burn.
 

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Grand Mal

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Before you go jumping on the eco-tard band wagon.
Fire ecology | Natural Resources Canada

In boreal forests, the complete opposite is true. Fires are frequent and their ecological influence at all levels—species, stand and landscape—drives boreal forest vegetation dynamics. This in turn affects the movement of wildlife populations, whose need for food and cover means they must relocate as the forest patterns change.
The boreal: A forest shaped by fire

The Canadian boreal forest is a mosaic of species and stands. It ranges in composition from pure deciduous and mixed deciduous-coniferous to pure coniferous stands.

The diversity of the forest mosaic is largely the result of many fires occurring on the landscape over a long period of time. These fires have varied in frequency, intensity, severity, size, shape and season of burn.

There is one way global warming has contributed to wildfires in British Columbia, though.
There's a tiny little critter called a pine beetle that's run amok through the lodgepole pine forests due to years of warm winters. It takes a period of cold weather to kill the buggers and that hasn't happened- as a result they've killed umpteen hectares of pine trees and turned the forest into huge stands of candles-in-waiting. 'Beetle-kill', those dead forests are called, and the incendiary sawdust from beetle-killed pine has caused two sawmill fires lately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle

edit- the Wikipedia article does say that NASA suggests that beetle kill doesn't contribute to forest fires but people here, on the ground, disagree.

"The long-held belief that beetle infestations and resulting deadkill lead to more devastating forest fires is currently being challenged. Although some disagree[citation needed], ongoing NASA studies have shown beetle kill may actually reduce available small fuels and consequently limit the effect and reach of fires."
 
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Bootlace

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There is one way global warming has contributed to wildfires in British Columbia, though.
There's a tiny little critter called a pine beetle that's run amok through the lodgepole pine forests due to years of warm winters. It takes a period of cold weather to kill the buggers and that hasn't happened- as a result they've killed umpteen hectares of pine trees and turned the forest into huge stands of candles-in-waiting. 'Beetle-kill', those dead forests are called, and the incendiary sawdust from beetle-killed pine has caused two sawmill fires lately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle

edit- the Wikipedia article does say that NASA suggests that beetle kill doesn't contribute to forest fires but people here, on the ground, disagree.

"The long-held belief that beetle infestations and resulting deadkill lead to more devastating forest fires is currently being challenged. Although some disagree[citation needed], ongoing NASA studies have shown beetle kill may actually reduce available small fuels and consequently limit the effect and reach of fires."


Can the beetle survive fire?
 

Grand Mal

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Can the beetle survive fire?

Hehe! There's a solution nobody thought of, burn it all down.
I'm pretty sure they die in the fire but they're trying to cut the dead trees before they burn. It looks kind of sad, acres and acres of rust-red trees, but the bush renews itself one way or another.
 

ocean515

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The Alberta wildfire looks a lot like Earth warning us not to dig those tar sands up. It has wiped out all the homes built there in the last few years for the tar sands workers. It is so big it is creating its own weather.


Canada fire: This looks like climate change - CNN.com

:doh

Yet, fire through the ages were so frequent and intense, entire species of vegetation adapted to be dependent on their occurrence.

Example:

Yosemite Sequoias Need Fire

No, AGW hasn't become a religion, has it?
 

FieldTheorist

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Before you go jumping on the eco-tard band wagon.
Fire ecology | Natural Resources Canada

In boreal forests, the complete opposite is true. Fires are frequent and their ecological influence at all levels—species, stand and landscape—drives boreal forest vegetation dynamics. This in turn affects the movement of wildlife populations, whose need for food and cover means they must relocate as the forest patterns change.
The boreal: A forest shaped by fire

The Canadian boreal forest is a mosaic of species and stands. It ranges in composition from pure deciduous and mixed deciduous-coniferous to pure coniferous stands.

The diversity of the forest mosaic is largely the result of many fires occurring on the landscape over a long period of time. These fires have varied in frequency, intensity, severity, size, shape and season of burn.

And? Without taking a firm stance either way, why does that preclude global warming from being a relevant factor? You're just saying "Look forest fires happen all of the time there." That's true, but the severity of this is off the charts. Global warming isn't important because it's the only factor in these ecological problems, nor does global warming need to the the exclusive factor for people to say global warming was involved. Famines happen all of the time, El Niños happens every year, floods happen every year, parts of the ice caps melt every year --none of these are the issue. The issue is when compounded with global warming, how extreme do these ecological events become (and many effects not even noticed and many, many more than haven't yet started)? We've been seeing for a while now, "Yeah, they start to get pretty severe." You might be able to deny individual things, but there's an alarming number of severe weather and ecological events occurring. Some economists have placed the current number at tens of billions of dollars to the economy every year, and that number will continuing ramping up --and that's not even discussing the biodiversity issues.
 
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Fearandloathing

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There is one way global warming has contributed to wildfires in British Columbia, though.
There's a tiny little critter called a pine beetle that's run amok through the lodgepole pine forests due to years of warm winters. It takes a period of cold weather to kill the buggers and that hasn't happened- as a result they've killed umpteen hectares of pine trees and turned the forest into huge stands of candles-in-waiting. 'Beetle-kill', those dead forests are called, and the incendiary sawdust from beetle-killed pine has caused two sawmill fires lately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle

edit- the Wikipedia article does say that NASA suggests that beetle kill doesn't contribute to forest fires but people here, on the ground, disagree.

"The long-held belief that beetle infestations and resulting deadkill lead to more devastating forest fires is currently being challenged. Although some disagree[citation needed], ongoing NASA studies have shown beetle kill may actually reduce available small fuels and consequently limit the effect and reach of fires."



The CBC Radio is almost 24/7 on this. First, I cannot not properly do justice to the size of this "monster". The last report said an area slightly larger than Manhattan is on fire or has been burned. The fire is so large, so hot that it is creating it's own mirco-climate creating winds of 100 kph, and lightening which creates new 'sister' fires. At the core, it is so hot bomber dropped water turns to steam before it hits anything.

Two nights ago, the fire jumped a more than one kilometer wide river along a 3 km front; making the idea of creating a firebreak a joke.

In this fire, more than 12,000 people have been evacuated, many of them with less than 20 minutes notice, done with whatever automobiles were available. This morning the RCMP escorted a convoy of 50+ vehicles through a temporary break in the blaze in the city.

There have been no casualties.

Earlier, one of the province's top fire experts was saying that their "season" now is from mid April to October, and added that in 1979 [when I moved here] the "season ran from late May to September/October. Not only are summers getting longer, Environment Canada says it's 4+ days longer than 30 years ago, but it's dryer summer and winter.

So far, a spontaneous campaign has raised $30 million, and this morning a convoy of four semi's left for a staging area north of Edmonton, loaded with everything from bottled water, soap, bedding and pet food, all donated since word of the disaster broke. As well, that convoy is carrying $30,000 in cash raised through donations.

Amazingly, the victims are talking about rebuilding; and officials say it could be months to get the fire out and make sure it's safe.
 

Fenton

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And? Without taking a firm stance either way, why does that preclude global warming from being a relevant factor? You're just saying "Look forest fires happen all of the time there." That's true, but the severity of this is off the charts. Global warming isn't important because it's the only factor in these ecological problems, nor does global warming need to the the exclusive factor for people to say global warming was involved. Famines happen all of the time, El Niños happens every year, floods happen every year, parts of the ice caps melt every year --none of these are the issue. The issue is when compounded with global warming, how extreme do these ecological events become (and many effects not even noticed and many, many more than haven't yet started)? We've been seeing for a while now, "Yeah, they start to get pretty severe." You might be able to deny individual things, but there's an alarming number of severe weather and ecological events occurring. Some economists have placed the current number at tens of billions of dollars to the economy every year, and that number will continuing ramping up --and that's not even discussing the biodiversity issues.

The biggest threat to the Pro-AGW agenda isn't anti-AGW's, its knuckle heads like this Seattle City Council Women

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshama_Sawant

Politicizing it and exposing AGW for what it is and for everyone to see, a vehicle to push the Socialist agenda

If the left cared at all about AGW or " renewable energy " they would abandon it as part and parcel of their overall agenda.

But then again, when did the left ever care about legitimacy or credibillity ?
 

Grand Mal

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The biggest threat to the Pro-AGW agenda isn't anti-AGW's, its knuckle heads like this Seattle City Council Women

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshama_Sawant

Politicizing it and exposing AGW for what it is and for everyone to see, a vehicle to push the Socialist agenda

If the left cared at all about AGW or " renewable energy " they would abandon it as part and parcel of their overall agenda.

But then again, when did the left ever care about legitimacy or credibillity ?

She does sound pretty looney-tunes- I'm glad you haven't mistaken her for a liberal.
 

Winchester

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There is one way global warming has contributed to wildfires in British Columbia, though.
There's a tiny little critter called a pine beetle that's run amok through the lodgepole pine forests due to years of warm winters. It takes a period of cold weather to kill the buggers and that hasn't happened- as a result they've killed umpteen hectares of pine trees and turned the forest into huge stands of candles-in-waiting. 'Beetle-kill', those dead forests are called, and the incendiary sawdust from beetle-killed pine has caused two sawmill fires lately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle

edit- the Wikipedia article does say that NASA suggests that beetle kill doesn't contribute to forest fires but people here, on the ground, disagree.

"The long-held belief that beetle infestations and resulting deadkill lead to more devastating forest fires is currently being challenged. Although some disagree[citation needed], ongoing NASA studies have shown beetle kill may actually reduce available small fuels and consequently limit the effect and reach of fires."

I've never seen anything like it, it's pretty stunning. I'm not sure how many millions of acres of trees have been wiped out in our state... a lot.
 

Grand Mal

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I've never seen anything like it, it's pretty stunning. I'm not sure how many millions of acres of trees have been wiped out in our state... a lot.

It's sad to see, innit? Like I said elsewhere, the bush will renew itself but meanwhile it's depressing to drive past all those red, dead trees.
 

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It should also be mentioned that the lodgepole pine is a fire dependent species. So fire is a natural and necessary part of it's cycle. Without these fires you don't have a healthy forest.

Down in California, in the 50s and 60s the US Forest Service used to know this and would do controlled burns. Keep the forest healthy but with managed as opposed to unmanaged fire. But the eastern environmentalists pushed Congress to take control and our western forests have suffered for it ever since.
 
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mike2810

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It should also be mentioned that the lodgepole pine is a fire dependent species. So fire is a natural and necessary part of it's cycle. Without these fires you don't have a healthy forest.

Beat me to posting.
 

Grand Mal

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It should also be mentioned that the lodgepole pine is a fire dependent species. So fire is a natural and necessary part of it's cycle. Without these fires you don't have a healthy forest.

Down in California, in the 50s and 60s the US Forest Service used to know this and would do controlled burns. Keep the forest healthy but with managed as opposed to unmanaged fire. But the eastern environmentalists pushed Congress to take control and our western forests have suffered for it ever since.

Yeah, isn't fire necessary for the cones to release their seeds?
But the pine beetle isn't a good substitute for fire.
 

Winchester

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It should also be mentioned that the lodgepole pine is a fire dependent species. So fire is a natural and necessary part of it's cycle. Without these fires you don't have a healthy forest.

Down in California, in the 50s and 60s the US Forest Service used to know this and would do controlled burns. Keep the forest healthy but with managed as opposed to unmanaged fire. But the eastern environmentalists pushed Congress to take control and our western forests have suffered for it ever since.

The issue isn't whether lodgepole pine fires are natural and necessary as I don't think anyone here is disputing that. The issue is whether the extended fire season is a good thing or no. And oh, I'm pretty sure there were westerners who pushed congress to take control and save the homes they built in the middle of forests as well.
 

austrianecon

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And? Without taking a firm stance either way, why does that preclude global warming from being a relevant factor? You're just saying "Look forest fires happen all of the time there." That's true, but the severity of this is off the charts. Global warming isn't important because it's the only factor in these ecological problems, nor does global warming need to the the exclusive factor for people to say global warming was involved. Famines happen all of the time, El Niños happens every year, floods happen every year, parts of the ice caps melt every year --none of these are the issue. The issue is when compounded with global warming, how extreme do these ecological events become (and many effects not even noticed and many, many more than haven't yet started)? We've been seeing for a while now, "Yeah, they start to get pretty severe." You might be able to deny individual things, but there's an alarming number of severe weather and ecological events occurring. Some economists have placed the current number at tens of billions of dollars to the economy every year, and that number will continuing ramping up --and that's not even discussing the biodiversity issues.

This is a bunch of bunk. Severity of fires like this happens all the time. Yellowstone for example back in 1988. Portugal had a huge forest fire in 2003 which wiped out 10% of it's forests. Wildfires create their own weather, small or large. But the issue here is not global warming and never was. Just as it's largely not an issue with other severe weather either.

The human population is settling in areas where before.. it was very limited to them before. Fort McMurray from 1966 to 2011 went from a population of 2,300 to 61,000. That means a small sleepy town to an urban sprawl. Look at a map of the town and it's urban sprawl. In 1966 there was natural fire line breaks, today communities are built into the forests. It's also naturally the dry season for that part of Canada, very little Albert Clippers after March.
 

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This is a bunch of bunk. Severity of fires like this happens all the time. Yellowstone for example back in 1988. Portugal had a huge forest fire in 2003 which wiped out 10% of it's forests. Wildfires create their own weather, small or large. But the issue here is not global warming and never was. Just as it's largely not an issue with other severe weather either.

The human population is settling in areas where before.. it was very limited to them before. Fort McMurray from 1966 to 2011 went from a population of 2,300 to 61,000. That means a small sleepy town to an urban sprawl. Look at a map of the town and it's urban sprawl. In 1966 there was natural fire line breaks, today communities are built into the forests. It's also naturally the dry season for that part of Canada, very little Albert Clippers after March.

Yellowstone was an example of man's intervention to fight fires having unintended consequences later on... the severity of that fire was all man caused. I will say it has indeed come back over the years which gives me hope with the current pine beetle killed forests.
 

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The issue isn't whether lodgepole pine fires are natural and necessary as I don't think anyone here is disputing that. The issue is whether the extended fire season is a good thing or no. And oh, I'm pretty sure there were westerners who pushed congress to take control and save the homes they built in the middle of forests as well.

Not back then. I was born and raised almost within a National Forest. There are regional forms of fire and forest management in the US, or were when the USFS wrote the rules. Once Congress took the reins they enforced the eastern model on all. Controlled burns have become a thing of the past.

The base problem is indeed man. Our population and spread has steadily increased. So even controlled burns (forest style) become too dangerous for the surrounding communities which have grown well beyond rural and density has radically increased.
 

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Yeah, isn't fire necessary for the cones to release their seeds?
But the pine beetle isn't a good substitute for fire.

The fires kills the beetle and allows the seed release. In nature the idea is not to get rid of the beetle altogether. The idea is to keep the population under control. Nature hasn't been able to do that with mankind. :mrgreen:
 

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Yellowstone was an example of man's intervention to fight fires having unintended consequences later on... the severity of that fire was all man caused. I will say it has indeed come back over the years which gives me hope with the current pine beetle killed forests.


Yes, and it's my biggest pet peeves about our (Northern Hemisphere) policy when it comes to wild fires. We never let one run it's course and we tend to wait until the last minute to do control burns.
 

Grand Mal

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The fires kills the beetle and allows the seed release. In nature the idea is not to get rid of the beetle altogether. The idea is to keep the population under control. Nature hasn't been able to do that with mankind. :mrgreen:

In this case, it's the warm winters that have extended the fertile life of the female beetles. It needs to be -40 for awhile to kill them and that hasn't been happening.
 

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Not back then. I was born and raised almost within a National Forest. There are regional forms of fire and forest management in the US, or were when the USFS wrote the rules. Once Congress took the reins they enforced the eastern model on all. Controlled burns have become a thing of the past.

The base problem is indeed man. Our population and spread has steadily increased. So even controlled burns (forest style) become too dangerous for the surrounding communities which have grown well beyond rural and density has radically increased.

No, controlled burns have not become a thing of the past... but yes as our population has spread out it there are certainly less areas where they can be done.
 
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