The Fiction Of Church And State

[hypgnostic]

Um, what makes you think I haven't?


Obviously, the only reason, you know, other than maybe for the sake of sharing something spiritual with the community, cause obviously all Christians are schemers who think about nothing other than how to force their views upon atheists! :roll:




Don't need to be, you think that the ONLY reason for public prayer is to force one's beliefs on another, and that's very clearly not true and the only way one could possibly think it's true is if they had a massive persecution complex, as there is no way to LOGICALLY approach the situation and draw that conclusion.


No, because I have a spine. I believe what I believe and feel sorry for those who are so spoiled and bitter that they actually view it as worthwhile to spend their time ******** on people for believing in something greater than us which makes us accountable for what we do in this life.
Social pressures will always happen and it's a preposterous turn that our society has taken to believe that children have the right to be protected from learning about the real world until it's too late. Those social pressures aren't gonna get any better when the community recognizes that those ****ing atheists made it so they can't do something as basic as saying a prayer before a sporting event, and I can't imagine what makes you think it would.


What exactly makes you think that this is AT ALL representative of the entire issue? You get one article from a bigot and one story about some hicks in Butt**** Oklahoma acting like stupid hicks, and you think that this justifies a belief that the only reason people would want to pray in public is to do exactly as this group of people who are clearly atypical enough in their behavior to garner the media attention which brought this story to your attention in the first place? Because if so, I think you would benefit from having a more critical mind, and not simply make assumptions of how things are and then look to the news for confirmation of your opinions which were formed without justification.

The problem is that examples like the one above are happening EVERYWHERE in the US -- it is not uncommon for this kind of thing happening because it goes to show how NARROW MINDED the Christian right is -- and the WORST thing they think someone can be is an atheist. There is more hatred towards atheists than just about any other cultural group in the US because religious bigotry and persecution is on the rise, which is also a sign of how dangerous religion is - this story is just one of many examples of the ugly face of x-ianity and the dangers it represents.

 

[tryreading]

Obviously, the only reason, you know, other than maybe for the sake of sharing something spiritual with the community, cause obviously all Christians are schemers who think about nothing other than how to force their views upon atheists! :roll: .

To me it doesn't matter what the religion is. Religion itself needs to be separate from government.

No, because I have a spine. I believe what I believe and feel sorry for those who are so spoiled and bitter that they actually view it as worthwhile to spend their time ******** on people for believing in something greater than us which makes us accountable for what we do in this life.

I'm not religious, but I hold myself accountable for everything I do in 'this life,' every bit as accountable for my actions and thoughts as you hold yourself for yours. I have what's known as a conscience. It is not from God, but a personal quality, part of my individual mind. You are wrong to think that your religious beliefs make you any more responsible or upstanding than those of us who control ourselves with our non-religious principles.

 

[Cephus]

I'm not religious, but I hold myself accountable for everything I do in 'this life,' every bit as accountable for my actions and thoughts as you hold yourself for yours. I have what's known as a conscience. It is not from God, but a personal quality, part of my individual mind. You are wrong to think that your religious beliefs make you any more responsible or upstanding than those of us who control ourselves with our non-religious principles.

As a matter of fact, I'd say that those who can control themselves are a lot more moral, responsible and upstanding than those who have to have the threat of eternal punishment to behave themselves. I can't tell you how many Christians I've had tell me that if it weren't for God, they'd be out murdering and raping left and right. There are some seriously screwed up people playing moral under the flag of religion.

 

[talloulou]

I can't tell you how many Christians I've had tell me that if it weren't for God, they'd be out murdering and raping left and right.

I'd be willing to bet very few have said that if any. :doh

 

[Cold Highway]

I'd be willing to bet very few have said that if any. :doh

You dont need religion to behave and follow the law.

 

[Cephus]

I'd be willing to bet very few have said that if any. :doh

Looks like yet another bet you'd lose then.

Anyone surprised?

 

[porsteamboy]

For those who don't want church/state separation it's there whether you like it or not. The founders apparantly thought it so important that it was the first thing they tacked onto the Constitution, as they knew what had previously happened in Europe and the colonies. They knew that if they did the same thing that had been done before they would get the same result; a theocracy. With a strict separation of church & state (a redundancy) you have the utmost religious freedom possible. You can't have that when the government starts taking sides, it's that simple. What I want to know from some here is why do you NEED your religion backed by the government in the first place? Why insert "under God" in our pledge, the 10 Commandments in goverment buildings, etc?

You have to understand why God was put on paper money and in the pledge, it was during the height of the cold war and the red scare. communism was the boogy man, it was so bad that they thought Elvis was a Russian plot to take over the minds of the youth. During that time the Knights of Columbus and the Foreign Legion were lobbying hard to have God put into the pledge and it eventually happened. President Ike Eisenhower came up with the Idea to put God on the Paper money, to show country unity and show we were a nation under God not like the Athiest communist. All political propaganda or patriotism, had nothing to do with religion or very little. And for the same reason creator was used in the DOI to unite the the religious majority for independence, if it were truly based on Christians principles they would have put something like Jesus Christ our lord and savor or something like that. Just as in the pledge and God on the money its symbolic speech and thats the way the Supreme court ruled, it has no specific religious meaning. Like when you hit your finger with a hammer and you yell GOD damn it! Or during intercourse your wife yells OoooH GOD! Has nothing to do with religion. Right or wrong thats the way they ruled. At the time of the commie scare most people and Religions in the US believed in some sort of God, if you clamed to be an Athiest you were labled a Commie, and probably would have lost your job among other things so there weren't many self outed Athiest. As I remember most if not all Presidents would end their State of Union speech with a God bless you or God bless America, The National Anthem mentions God, all symbolic speech, not promoting any specific religion. The congress says a prayer before every session but its non denominational. John Adams in his later years was ask what he thought about Congress saying a prayer before a session and he said "I don't see anything wrong with it, if they all agreed but I think they should pay for it out of their own pockets". I agree with that. This Government is secular and that was the intent of the founding Fathers they were not concerned with religion in Government and they stated that in the Constitution. The Government would have never put God in the pledge or on paper money if they thought it would promote a religion. Now, if they put In Jesus we trust, then they would of had a problem.

 

[porsteamboy]

Make that the American Legion.

 

[scourge99]

Most people use Jefferson's 'wall of separation' metaphor in his letter to the Danbury Baptists as evidence that Jefferson wanted government and religion to have nothing to do with each other. A careful analysis of the correspondence between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists, however, shows that the Baptists were concerned that some might attempt to use the law to control their expression of their faith. Jefferson's 'wall of separation' metaphor was to reassure the Baptists that the Second Amendment fully protected them and they had nothing to fear from their government.

Jefferson did not intend to separate government or religion--he joined with most others in govenrment at that time in believing that the Constitution was written for religious people of great faith and that there was nothing wrong with voluntary Bible reading, prayers, and/or worshp services in the halls of Congress. The Second Amendment was not intended to abolish religion from government but rather set down a guideline by which neither the Church nor the government would have authority over the other in any manner.

The official treaty was in Arabic text, and a translated version provided by Consul-General Barlow was ratified by the United States on June 10, 1797. Article 11 of the treaty was said to have not been part of the original Arabic version of the treaty, and was from a letter from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli.[1]

However it originated, it was undeniably a part of the treaty as approved by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the Senate by a unanimous vote.

Article 11, reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Article 11 has been a point of contention regarding the proper interpretation of the doctrine of separation of church and state. Supporters of the separation of church and state contend that this article is significant in that it confirms that the government of the United States was specifically intended to be religiously neutral. Supporters of the "Christian Nation" theory dispute this, arguing that the article in the treaty carries little or no significance.[citation needed]

Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May of 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

Many cry foul claiming that this treaty is an unimportant footnote in history that was just rushed to delivery. However these people like to ignore the fact it was signed by the second president of the United States 10 years after the Constitution was created. I think they had a pretty good idea of what the US was about back then.

I don't believe its hard to see that this is undeniable evidence that the US should be religiously neutral. In other words, you can have your own religious beliefs but don't let them spill into forming policy of the government.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Many cry foul claiming that this treaty is an unimportant footnote in history that was just rushed to delivery. However these people like to ignore the fact it was signed by the second president of the United States 10 years after the Constitution was created. I think they had a pretty good idea of what the US was about back then.

I don't believe its hard to see that this is undeniable evidence that the US should be religiously neutral. In other words, you can have your own religious beliefs but don't let them spill into forming policy of the government.

I suggest you really do your homework on the background and intent of that treaty. As John Adams was perhaps one of the most religious of our early presidents, I am quite certain that he joined with the others in wanting to be sure that there would be no religious test or requirement related to the federal government. But religious beliefs not spill over into forming government policy? There is no way that we could have avoided principled core beliefs of the authors being incorporated into the language and principles of the Constitution. And most of our founders credited their religious faith for the principled core beliefs they held and believed that the Republic would not survive if most of the people did not share them.

John Adams at different times said:

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

 

[scourge99]

I suggest you really do your homework on the background and intent of that treaty. As John Adams was perhaps one of the most religious of our early presidents, I am quite certain that he joined with the others in wanting to be sure that there would be no religious test or requirement related to the federal government. But religious beliefs not spill over into forming government policy? There is no way that we could have avoided principled core beliefs of the authors being incorporated into the language and principles of the Constitution. And most of our founders credited their religious faith for the principled core beliefs they held and believed that the Republic would not survive if most of the people did not share them.

John Adams at different times said:

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

Luckily actions speak louder than words. I haven't seen any blatantly obvious "Christian laws" being passed on a federal level.

On a side note: perhaps you could enlighten me on your perspective of this treaty. Considering, at least from what I've read, that it was read aloud and ratified unanimously by the senate I don't see much debate here. Sources would be greatly appreciated.

 

[black wolf]

... As John Adams was perhaps one of the most religious of our early presidents, I am quite certain that he joined with the others in wanting to be sure that there would be no religious test or requirement related to the federal government. But religious beliefs not spill over into forming government policy? There is no way that we could have avoided principled core beliefs of the authors being incorporated into the language and principles of the Constitution. And most of our founders credited their religious faith for the principled core beliefs they held and believed that the Republic would not survive if most of the people did not share them.

John Adams at different times said:
...

And the modern would-be theocrats gladly point to the Christian founders, stir the deists, agnostics and atheists in with them, and smugly hand the public the soup. The founders would be appalled at today's theo-absolutist efforts.

 

[ARealConservative]

I can't tell you how many Christians I've had tell me that if it weren't for God, they'd be out murdering and raping left and right.

These are the same type of people that would then explain how the death penalty reduces crime. :doh

 

[Cephus]

These are the same type of people that would then explain how the death penalty reduces crime. :doh

The death penalty isn't supposed to be a deterrent, otherwise it would be called the "death deterrent". It's a punishment, a penalty for crimes so heinous that those convicted have lost the right to breath the same air as decent people. If the death penalty deterred anyone from committing crimes, that's a wonderful secondary effect, but certainly not it's primary purpose which it does with 100% efficiency.

 

[ARealConservative]

The death penalty isn't supposed to be a deterrent, otherwise it would be called the "death deterrent". It's a punishment, a penalty for crimes so heinous that those convicted have lost the right to breath the same air as decent people. If the death penalty deterred anyone from committing crimes, that's a wonderful secondary effect, but certainly not it's primary purpose which it does with 100% efficiency.

Bs. Proponents always play the deterrent angle.

 

[Cephus]

Bs. Proponents always play the deterrent angle.

Apparently not. I think you mean OPPONENTS, who often do play the deterrent angle and are clearly wrong about it.

 

[tryreading]

Many cry foul claiming that this treaty is an unimportant footnote in history that was just rushed to delivery. However these people like to ignore the fact it was signed by the second president of the United States 10 years after the Constitution was created. I think they had a pretty good idea of what the US was about back then.

I don't believe its hard to see that this is undeniable evidence that the US should be religiously neutral. In other words, you can have your own religious beliefs but don't let them spill into forming policy of the government.

Albqowl often minimizes the very direct language Jefferson used in the 'Danbury Baptist Letter.' But his intent was to make a public statement about the need for the 'Wall of Separation,' and the letter Jefferson wrote to his attorney general asking him to review the Danbury letter shows clearly what he was trying to say to the nation about our Constitution and what it prohibits regarding religion:

The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mtj:@field(DOCID+@lit(tj090163))

 

[nikitas3.com]

It is important to think of religion in the context of our Christianity, which, despite its flaws, has given the most freedom and peace to the most people in all of history. Meanwhile, abortion, an atheist ethic which is opposed by real Christians, kills 1.3 million people per year in America. And the greatest mass murderers by far of all time, Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung, all were atheists.
Please visit my website at www.nikitas3.com for more.

 

[Cold Highway]

It is important to think of religion in the context of our Christianity, which, despite its flaws, has given the most freedom and peace to the most people in all of history. Meanwhile, abortion, an atheist ethic which is opposed by real Christians, kills 1.3 million people per year in America. And the greatest mass murderers by far of all time, Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung, all were atheists.
Please visit my website at www.nikitas3.com for more.

Ah I see your logic now

Christian = good can do no wrong and is perfect

Atheist, Non Christian = evil

 

[dixon76710]

The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution.

American Memory from the Library of Congress

What nonsense. Connecticutt had exactly such an alliance with the Congregationalist church when the Danbury letter was written and the Constitution didnt even address the issue.

 

[OKgrannie]

It is important to think of religion in the context of our Christianity, which, despite its flaws, has given the most freedom and peace to the most people in all of history. Meanwhile, abortion, an atheist ethic which is opposed by real Christians, kills 1.3 million people per year in America. And the greatest mass murderers by far of all time, Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung, all were atheists.
Please visit my website at welcome to nikitas for more.

Many REAL Christians, as well as followers of other faiths, support reproductive choice. Who gave you the authority to judge whether a Christian is "real" or "fake"?

http://www.rcrc.org/about/index.cfm

"RCRC was founded in 1973 to safeguard the newly won constitutional right to abortion. The Coalition founders were clergy and lay leaders from mainstream religions, many of whom had provided women with referrals to safe abortion services before the Supreme Court legalized abortion in Roe v. Wade. The founders believed that there would be at most a ten-year struggle to secure the right to choose. In fact the struggle is far from over. It has changed and intensified, and the stakes are growing.

Today, the Religious Coalition comprises national organizations from major faiths and traditions, religiously affiliated and independent religious organizations, affiliates throughout the country, the national Clergy for Choice Network, Spiritual Youth for Reproductive Freedom chapters, The Black Church Initiative, and individuals who support reproductive choice and religious freedom.."

 

[AlbqOwl]

What nonsense. Connecticutt had exactly such an alliance with the Congregationalist church when the Danbury letter was written and the Constitution didnt even address the issue.

That's the error many make in trying to make the erroneous case for separation of Church and State. Jefferson's 'wall of separation' in his letter to the Danbury Baptists was to assure them that they had nothing to fear from their federal government. It was not to suggest that the government must be protected from the Baptists.

A member wanted me to elaborate on Adam's treaty posted a few pages back. I respectfully decline here as it would hijack this thread to do so, but I think my posting of Adams' opinion re religion and government effectively disputes the members' interpretation of Adams' intent with that particular document too.

Our founding fathers were mostly deeply religious men who in no way expected that those in government or participating in government would not be religious. Their intent was that there would be no reward nor punishment for any particular religious point of view nor any mandate re what any person must profess re religious beliefs and practice. Otherwise, they held church services even in the halls of Congress and considered that perfectly legal so long as attendance was purely voluntary. To this day, the House of Representatives begins their day with a generic prayer. To deny that kind of religious expression to the rest of the people anywhere makes no sense at all.

 

[Cephus]

It is important to think of religion in the context of our Christianity, which, despite its flaws, has given the most freedom and peace to the most people in all of history.

Not if you know anything about history. Christianity has traditionally been a very bloodthirsty religion, just look at all those "peacefully" taken care of in the Inquisitions.

And the greatest mass murderers by far of all time, Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung, all were atheists.

Except for the fact that Hitler was a Christian. Don't let the facts get in the way of your mindless rants.

 

[The Baron]

Re-writing History

“Except for the fact that Hitler was a Christian.” - Cephus

Hitler was a Christian?

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

“National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)” – Adolf Hitler

10th October, 1941, midday:

“Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)” – Adolf Hitler

14th October, 1941, midday:

“The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)” – Adolf Hitler

19th October, 1941, night:

“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.” – Adolf Hitler

21st October, 1941, midday:

“Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)” – Adolf Hitler

13th December, 1941, midnight:

“Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)” – Adolf Hitler

14th December, 1941, midday:

“Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)” – Adolf Hitler

9th April, 1942, dinner:

“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)” – Adolf Hitler

27th February, 1942, midday:

“It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)” – Adolf Hitler

http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

“According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis."

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

“A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.“​

Hitler and Christianity






“Don't let the facts get in the way of your mindless rants.” – Cephus

And don’t let your bigotry get in the way of yours…








.

 

[ARealConservative]

Re: Re-writing History

“Except for the fact that Hitler was a Christian.” - Cephus

Hitler was a Christian?

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

“National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)” – Adolf Hitler

10th October, 1941, midday:

“Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)” – Adolf Hitler

14th October, 1941, midday:

“The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)” – Adolf Hitler

19th October, 1941, night:

“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.” – Adolf Hitler

21st October, 1941, midday:

“Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)” – Adolf Hitler

13th December, 1941, midnight:

“Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)” – Adolf Hitler

14th December, 1941, midday:

“Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)” – Adolf Hitler

9th April, 1942, dinner:

“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)” – Adolf Hitler

27th February, 1942, midday:

“It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)” – Adolf Hitler

Was Hitler a Christian?

“According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis."

The Straight Dope Mailbag: The Straight Dope Mailbag: Was Hitler a Christian?

“A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.“​

Hitler and Christianity






“Don't let the facts get in the way of your mindless rants.” – Cephus

And don’t let your bigotry get in the way of yours…

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."

Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.