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The Fallacy Of Biblical Stories: The Virgin Birth (1 Viewer)

Gordy327

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"The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the raising of Lazarus, even the Old Testament miracles, all are freely used for religious propaganda, and they are very effective with an audience of unsophisticates and children." --- Richard Dawkins

For this part of the biblical fallacy series, I will look at what is one of the most famous and celebrated stories of the New Testament, The Virgin Birth. After all, it does have its own national holiday. Never mind the actual origins of said holiday, as that is a separate discussion all its own. But it seemed God needed a makeover from his smite-happy Old Testament self into a kinder, gentler, less smitey New Testament form (at least until Revelations-again, a different discussion). And what better way to do this than by selecting a human vessel to carry and give birth to his progeny, because why not? Anyway, the Virgin Birth story goes something like this:

Mary was a Jewish woman living in Nazareth with her betrothed/husband Joseph. Mary was selected by God because she was supposedly righteous and a virgin. Because apparently, women back then were valued based on their sexual activity, or especially the lack thereof. I suppose a new car is at its most valuable before it is driven off the dealership lot. Regardless, the Holy Spirit magically impregnated Mary with God’s seed and without sexual intercourse (when you think about it, God caused Joseph to became a cuckold). I suppose that was the ancient theological version of artificial insemination. Mary later gave birth to Jesus, who would later grow up to be Savior of mankind and even a macabre “decoration” hung in churches or on some necklaces.

Christian religions and denominations accept this story as authoritative because, religion/faith/feelings. And apparently, some people are programmed to never question religion. Fortunately, I am here to examine this story from a more logical and rational standpoint to see if it is plausible by examining any available evidence. So let’s get to it!

1. Is a virgin birth possible? Well, yes and no : First, a quick biology lesson. Mammals (including humans) reproduce through sexual reproduction. The male inseminates the female and when a sperm fertilizes the egg, a zygote (a single undifferentiated cell) is formed (not yet a human or child, just saying) and after becoming a blastocyst/embryo, implants in the uterus of the female, where it is gestated until birth occurs. The key to this is “sexual reproduction,” as in both a male and female is required. But Mary was impregnated without sexual intercourse. Therefore, she reproduced asexually. Some organisms can reproduce asexually. But here is the catch: While some reptiles and fish can reproduce asexually, humans cannot! Of course, religion explains this away by what is essentially magic. Sorry to break it to theists, but humans are biologically incapable of parthenogenesis. As Professor Jenny Graves of La Trove University (2015) states, “So the answer to the question of whether virgin birth is a real possibility is: yes, unless you are a mammal.”

2. The Virgin birth (unsurprisingly) borrows from other ancient sources : Like many other biblical stories which clearly borrow from previous cultural sources, the Virgin Birth is no different. Egypt is always a good go to source. According to John D. Keyser of Hope of Israel Ministries, about 2,000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian Virgin Queen Mut-em-ua supposedly gave birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented. First was the Annunciation, the god Taht announcing to Mut-em-ua that she will become a mother. Second was the Immaculate Conception, where the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically [magically] impregnated Mut-em-ua by holding a cross to her mouth. Third was the birth of the Man-god Amenkept. Fourth was the Adoration of the infant by gods and men, including 3 kings, who offer gifts. Is this story starting to sound familiar?

Continued....
 
...Continued.

Egyptian mythology is not the only source of such stories. Hindu myth has the Ramayana, where Rama was conceived by his mother drinking a potion prepared by god Vishnu. Buddhism holds that Buddha was born from a virgin mother, Queen Maya (Mary) after she had a vivid dream in which four angels carried her high into white mountain peaks and clothed her in flowers. A magnificent white bull elephant (a symbol of fertility) bearing a white lotus in its trunk approached Maya and walked around her three times. Then the elephant struck her on the right side with its trunk and vanished into her. Greek and Roman myths are full of stories where the gods visit mortal women for some nookie, resulting in the births of demigods. To be fair, the Greek & Roman gods still needed to engage in sexual intercourse to produce their offspring. The Christian version just skips the mechanics of the process. In certain Native American stories, Deganawida (The Great Peacemaker) was born a Huron and his mother was supposedly a virgin. There are other similar examples from other cultures. But you get the idea. The Virgin Birth of the Bible is not a unique or original idea.


3. Other alternative explanations
: What are other possible explanations for the "virgin birth?" Well, Mary was betrothed to Joseph when she became pregnant. It's possible that they did the Bronze Age boink before they were married. As such an act was frowned upon in those times, Mary could have simply claimed it was an immaculate conception. Or maybe they were married and simply copulated like a married couple, resulting in pregnancy. The flair of the story was simply added later. Or it might have happened like this . Perhaps the midi-chlorians in her body were powerful and numerous enough to create life.
jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif
After all, that's about as plausible as the biblical version.

Considering that it is biologically impossible for a human to asexually reproduce and given that the Virgin Birth story is similar to, if not outright taken, from numerous older sources, it's quite unlikely that the story as depicted in the bible actually happened. It also makes no logical sense that God, who can create an entire universe from nothing, would need a human vessel to create an offspring. When one looks at such stories without religious blinders or emotional needs, one can see just how absurd stories like this actually are!
 
...Continued.

Egyptian mythology is not the only source of such stories. Hindu myth has the Ramayana, where Rama was conceived by his mother drinking a potion prepared by god Vishnu. Buddhism holds that Buddha was born from a virgin mother, Queen Maya (Mary) after she had a vivid dream in which four angels carried her high into white mountain peaks and clothed her in flowers. A magnificent white bull elephant (a symbol of fertility) bearing a white lotus in its trunk approached Maya and walked around her three times. Then the elephant struck her on the right side with its trunk and vanished into her. Greek and Roman myths are full of stories where the gods visit mortal women for some nookie, resulting in the births of demigods. To be fair, the Greek & Roman gods still needed to engage in sexual intercourse to produce their offspring. The Christian version just skips the mechanics of the process. In certain Native American stories, Deganawida (The Great Peacemaker) was born a Huron and his mother was supposedly a virgin. There are other similar examples from other cultures. But you get the idea. The Virgin Birth of the Bible is not a unique or original idea.


3. Other alternative explanations : What are other possible explanations for the "virgin birth?" Well, Mary was betrothed to Joseph when she became pregnant. It's possible that they did the Bronze Age boink before they were married. As such an act was frowned upon in those times, Mary could have simply claimed it was an immaculate conception. Or maybe they were married and simply copulated like a married couple, resulting in pregnancy. The flair of the story was simply added later. Or it might have happened like this . Perhaps the midi-chlorians in her body were powerful and numerous enough to create life.
jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif
After all, that's about as plausible as the biblical version.

Considering that it is biologically impossible for a human to asexually reproduce and given that the Virgin Birth story is similar to, if not outright taken, from numerous older sources, it's quite unlikely that the story as depicted in the bible actually happened. It also makes no logical sense that God, who can create an entire universe from nothing, would need a human vessel to create an offspring. When one looks at such stories without religious blinders or emotional needs, one can see just how absurd stories like this actually are!
Well, in the bibles defense, pregnant virgins are slightly more believable then talking snakes.
 
Well, in the bibles defense, pregnant virgins are slightly more believable then talking snakes.
I suppose that particular biblical story as depicted is slightly less absurd than other stories. But not by much.
 

As the NRSV has it, “All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: ‘Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,’ which means ‘God is with us.’ "We already know that we should replace the word “fulfill” here with the more accurate “match.” Matthew is matching his account of Jesus’s virgin birth with part of the Old Testament.


The part he has in mind is Isaiah 7:14. And this is the first source of confusion, because Isaiah isn’t originally about a virgin. It’s about a young woman. The Hebrew word for the woman who gets pregnant in Isaiah 7:14 is alma, and we know from elsewhere that the word doesn’t mean “virgin,” but rather “young woman.”

Note that there is much disagreement by biblical scholars on whether there truly is a misinterpretation.
 
I would wager much of the Bible is misinterpreted. That's why many theists can't even agree on their own mythology.
UNLESS each scripture on any given subject is considered and there are no contradictions in the belief you come up with...then and only then, is it the truth of scripture...
 
UNLESS each scripture on any given subject is considered and there are no contradictions in the belief you come up with...then and only then, is it the truth of scripture...
Sure, Scripture can illumine us, direct us to thoughts of the truth, but just because some construct comes from the Bible, does not mean it is true.
 
"The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the raising of Lazarus, even the Old Testament miracles, all are freely used for religious propaganda, and they are very effective with an audience of unsophisticates and children." --- Richard Dawkins

For this part of the biblical fallacy series, I will look at what is one of the most famous and celebrated stories of the New Testament, The Virgin Birth. After all, it does have its own national holiday. Never mind the actual origins of said holiday, as that is a separate discussion all its own. But it seemed God needed a makeover from his smite-happy Old Testament self into a kinder, gentler, less smitey New Testament form (at least until Revelations-again, a different discussion). And what better way to do this than by selecting a human vessel to carry and give birth to his progeny, because why not? Anyway, the Virgin Birth story goes something like this:

Mary was a Jewish woman living in Nazareth with her betrothed/husband Joseph. Mary was selected by God because she was supposedly righteous and a virgin. Because apparently, women back then were valued based on their sexual activity, or especially the lack thereof. I suppose a new car is at its most valuable before it is driven off the dealership lot. Regardless, the Holy Spirit magically impregnated Mary with God’s seed and without sexual intercourse (when you think about it, God caused Joseph to became a cuckold). I suppose that was the ancient theological version of artificial insemination. Mary later gave birth to Jesus, who would later grow up to be Savior of mankind and even a macabre “decoration” hung in churches or on some necklaces.

Christian religions and denominations accept this story as authoritative because, religion/faith/feelings. And apparently, some people are programmed to never question religion. Fortunately, I am here to examine this story from a more logical and rational standpoint to see if it is plausible by examining any available evidence. So let’s get to it!
There is a female shark in an isolated aquarium that a gave birth, so such a virgin birth is possible.

The shark is probably not the same activity as the virgin birth though.

A virgin birth is not so advanced a trick, certainly within the purview of a sorcerer like Christ.
 
There is a female shark in an isolated aquarium that a gave birth, so such a virgin birth is possible.

The shark is probably not the same activity as the virgin birth though.

A virgin birth is not so advanced a trick, certainly within the purview of a sorcerer like Christ.
As the article stated, a Virgin birth might be possible in other species, but not in mammals, including humans.
 
As the article stated, a Virgin birth might be possible in other species, but not in mammals, including humans.
Shouldn't matter, the egg can mutate and turn on itself.

The shark probably prayed for a companion, an offspring.

Consciousness, J.C. probably borrowed from his Dad.
 
Shouldn't matter, the egg can mutate and turn on itself.

The shark probably prayed for a companion, an offspring.

Consciousness, J.C. probably borrowed from his Dad.
The egg "turn on itself?" No, that's not how mammalian genetics or reproduction works. And since when can sharks pray?
 
The egg "turn on itself?" No, that's not how mammalian genetics or reproduction works. And since when can sharks pray?
Every living entity knows how to pray, but the shark may have just used its own mystic opulence.

All you need to do is mate a sequence of DNA.

In one of the Hells a humanity can go to, women start becoming spontaneously pregnant, that is not what is the virgin birth.

The other Avatars all took seminal birth, Krishna, Ram, Chaitanya, His associates, Bisma, Vysadeva, Sita appeared in a forest in a basket.
 
Every living entity knows how to pray, but the shark may have just used its own mystic opulence.

All you need to do is mate a sequence of DNA.

In one of the Hells a humanity can go to, women start becoming spontaneously pregnant, that is not what is the virgin birth.

The other Avatars all took seminal birth, Krishna, Ram, Chaitanya, His associates, Bisma, Vysadeva, Sita appeared in a forest in a basket.
There is no evidence of a Mammal ever asexually reproducing or other species besides humans praying.
 
There is a female shark in an isolated aquarium that a gave birth, so such a virgin birth is possible.

The shark is probably not the same activity as the virgin birth though.

A virgin birth is not so advanced a trick, certainly within the purview of a sorcerer like Christ.
Maybe he time-traveled to before his birth and teleported some of his own sperm into his mother, and is his own father.
 
Maybe he time-traveled to before his birth and teleported some of his own sperm into his mother, and is his own father.
That makes about as much sense as any other biblical story.
 
2. The Virgin birth (unsurprisingly) borrows from other ancient sources : Like many other biblical stories which clearly borrow from previous cultural sources, the Virgin Birth is no different. Egypt is always a good go to source. According to John D. Keyser of Hope of Israel Ministries, about 2,000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian Virgin Queen Mut-em-ua supposedly gave birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented. First was the Annunciation, the god Taht announcing to Mut-em-ua that she will become a mother. Second was the Immaculate Conception, where the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically [magically] impregnated Mut-em-ua by holding a cross to her mouth. Third was the birth of the Man-god Amenkept. Fourth was the Adoration of the infant by gods and men, including 3 kings, who offer gifts. Is this story starting to sound familiar?

Continued....
Some corrections here.

1) The Immaculate Conception does not refer to the conception of Jesus, but to the conception of Mary.

2) Mutemwiya was not a virgin. The mythology is that the God Amun disguised himself as her husband and bedded her - resulting in the conception of Amenhotep III.

3) There was no adoration. The mythology is merely that the Goddesses Isis and Khnum are represented in the context of midwifery.

Etc. If we’re going to do comparative religion then let’s get the deets right, shall we?
 
Jesus was most likely a Roman Jew.
 
This is all lovely, scholarly analysis! It ranks right up there with some of the greatest anti-scripture analysis that has been created over the past 2000 years...and failed to put a dent in Christianity.

How many learned, dedicated people have tried to discredit the Bible over the years? Why have all failed? Scientific knowledge has expanded a hundred fold over the past two millennia. We can research pretty much anything and access all the accumulated knowledge of human history from our desktop these days yet, for some reason, Christianity has not been scrubbed from the world and there are BILLIONS of believers! As much as 1/3 of the global population believes in one form of Christianity or another. How can that be if the Bible is so completely and so obviously fake?

It might make one wonder whether all those anti-scripturalists, rather than the Christians, are the ones on the wrong track.
 
Woman makes a claim to be a virgin and pregnant. And then three men show up at the birth bearing gifts.

They claim they followed a star. Sounds believable.
 
Woman makes a claim to be a virgin and pregnant. And then three men show up at the birth bearing gifts.

Absolutely nothing suspicious about that.
But they said nothing regarding it, and somehow managed to not have any accusations recorded, so they're now known as the three wise men.
 
But they said nothing regarding it, and somehow managed to not have any accusations recorded, so they're now known as the three wise men.
Or at least three men who know how to bribe a woman to poor to afford a house to have a baby in.
 
This is all lovely, scholarly analysis! It ranks right up there with some of the greatest anti-scripture analysis that has been created over the past 2000 years...and failed to put a dent in Christianity.

How many learned, dedicated people have tried to discredit the Bible over the years? Why have all failed? Scientific knowledge has expanded a hundred fold over the past two millennia. We can research pretty much anything and access all the accumulated knowledge of human history from our desktop these days yet, for some reason, Christianity has not been scrubbed from the world and there are BILLIONS of believers! As much as 1/3 of the global population believes in one form of Christianity or another. How can that be if the Bible is so completely and so obviously fake?

It might make one wonder whether all those anti-scripturalists, rather than the Christians, are the ones on the wrong track.
Popularity is not really an indicator of accuracy. Religions by their nature are not disprovable, so no one is going to disprove them. That does not make them true. What others choose to believe is irrelevant to me as long as it does not affect me.
 
"The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the raising of Lazarus, even the Old Testament miracles, all are freely used for religious propaganda, and they are very effective with an audience of unsophisticates and children." --- Richard Dawkins

For this part of the biblical fallacy series, I will look at what is one of the most famous and celebrated stories of the New Testament, The Virgin Birth. After all, it does have its own national holiday. Never mind the actual origins of said holiday, as that is a separate discussion all its own. But it seemed God needed a makeover from his smite-happy Old Testament self into a kinder, gentler, less smitey New Testament form (at least until Revelations-again, a different discussion). And what better way to do this than by selecting a human vessel to carry and give birth to his progeny, because why not? Anyway, the Virgin Birth story goes something like this:

Mary was a Jewish woman living in Nazareth with her betrothed/husband Joseph. Mary was selected by God because she was supposedly righteous and a virgin. Because apparently, women back then were valued based on their sexual activity, or especially the lack thereof. I suppose a new car is at its most valuable before it is driven off the dealership lot. Regardless, the Holy Spirit magically impregnated Mary with God’s seed and without sexual intercourse (when you think about it, God caused Joseph to became a cuckold). I suppose that was the ancient theological version of artificial insemination. Mary later gave birth to Jesus, who would later grow up to be Savior of mankind and even a macabre “decoration” hung in churches or on some necklaces.

Christian religions and denominations accept this story as authoritative because, religion/faith/feelings. And apparently, some people are programmed to never question religion. Fortunately, I am here to examine this story from a more logical and rational standpoint to see if it is plausible by examining any available evidence. So let’s get to it!

1. Is a virgin birth possible? Well, yes and no : First, a quick biology lesson. Mammals (including humans) reproduce through sexual reproduction. The male inseminates the female and when a sperm fertilizes the egg, a zygote (a single undifferentiated cell) is formed (not yet a human or child, just saying) and after becoming a blastocyst/embryo, implants in the uterus of the female, where it is gestated until birth occurs. The key to this is “sexual reproduction,” as in both a male and female is required. But Mary was impregnated without sexual intercourse. Therefore, she reproduced asexually. Some organisms can reproduce asexually. But here is the catch: While some reptiles and fish can reproduce asexually, humans cannot! Of course, religion explains this away by what is essentially magic. Sorry to break it to theists, but humans are biologically incapable of parthenogenesis. As Professor Jenny Graves of La Trove University (2015) states, “So the answer to the question of whether virgin birth is a real possibility is: yes, unless you are a mammal.”

2. The Virgin birth (unsurprisingly) borrows from other ancient sources : Like many other biblical stories which clearly borrow from previous cultural sources, the Virgin Birth is no different. Egypt is always a good go to source. According to John D. Keyser of Hope of Israel Ministries, about 2,000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian Virgin Queen Mut-em-ua supposedly gave birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented. First was the Annunciation, the god Taht announcing to Mut-em-ua that she will become a mother. Second was the Immaculate Conception, where the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically [magically] impregnated Mut-em-ua by holding a cross to her mouth. Third was the birth of the Man-god Amenkept. Fourth was the Adoration of the infant by gods and men, including 3 kings, who offer gifts. Is this story starting to sound familiar?

Continued....


So - your guru is Richard Dawkins.
 
"The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the raising of Lazarus, even the Old Testament miracles, all are freely used for religious propaganda, and they are very effective with an audience of unsophisticates and children." --- Richard Dawkins

For this part of the biblical fallacy series, I will look at what is one of the most famous and celebrated stories of the New Testament, The Virgin Birth. After all, it does have its own national holiday. Never mind the actual origins of said holiday, as that is a separate discussion all its own. But it seemed God needed a makeover from his smite-happy Old Testament self into a kinder, gentler, less smitey New Testament form (at least until Revelations-again, a different discussion). And what better way to do this than by selecting a human vessel to carry and give birth to his progeny, because why not? Anyway, the Virgin Birth story goes something like this:

Mary was a Jewish woman living in Nazareth with her betrothed/husband Joseph. Mary was selected by God because she was supposedly righteous and a virgin. Because apparently, women back then were valued based on their sexual activity, or especially the lack thereof. I suppose a new car is at its most valuable before it is driven off the dealership lot. Regardless, the Holy Spirit magically impregnated Mary with God’s seed and without sexual intercourse (when you think about it, God caused Joseph to became a cuckold). I suppose that was the ancient theological version of artificial insemination. Mary later gave birth to Jesus, who would later grow up to be Savior of mankind and even a macabre “decoration” hung in churches or on some necklaces.

Christian religions and denominations accept this story as authoritative because, religion/faith/feelings. And apparently, some people are programmed to never question religion. Fortunately, I am here to examine this story from a more logical and rational standpoint to see if it is plausible by examining any available evidence. So let’s get to it!

1. Is a virgin birth possible? Well, yes and no : First, a quick biology lesson. Mammals (including humans) reproduce through sexual reproduction. The male inseminates the female and when a sperm fertilizes the egg, a zygote (a single undifferentiated cell) is formed (not yet a human or child, just saying) and after becoming a blastocyst/embryo, implants in the uterus of the female, where it is gestated until birth occurs. The key to this is “sexual reproduction,” as in both a male and female is required. But Mary was impregnated without sexual intercourse. Therefore, she reproduced asexually. Some organisms can reproduce asexually. But here is the catch: While some reptiles and fish can reproduce asexually, humans cannot! Of course, religion explains this away by what is essentially magic. Sorry to break it to theists, but humans are biologically incapable of parthenogenesis. As Professor Jenny Graves of La Trove University (2015) states, “So the answer to the question of whether virgin birth is a real possibility is: yes, unless you are a mammal.”

2. The Virgin birth (unsurprisingly) borrows from other ancient sources : Like many other biblical stories which clearly borrow from previous cultural sources, the Virgin Birth is no different. Egypt is always a good go to source. According to John D. Keyser of Hope of Israel Ministries, about 2,000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian Virgin Queen Mut-em-ua supposedly gave birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept (or Amenophis) III, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented. First was the Annunciation, the god Taht announcing to Mut-em-ua that she will become a mother. Second was the Immaculate Conception, where the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically [magically] impregnated Mut-em-ua by holding a cross to her mouth. Third was the birth of the Man-god Amenkept. Fourth was the Adoration of the infant by gods and men, including 3 kings, who offer gifts. Is this story starting to sound familiar?

Continued....

I have not fully delved into this. Busy right now.
But......


Could it be that all those Egyptian "virgin" birth had instead borrowed from the.......................OLD TESTAMENT?


Let's not forget that the virgin birth in the New Testament was simply the fulfillment of the prophecy from the Old.
How old is the Old Testament - the Torah or Tanakh - which existed orally, before it was written?
 
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