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The evidence found in Iraq

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gdalton

I have made a case before refuting the idea that Bush lied in order to wage a war against Iraq, I cited sources that showed the connection between Saddam and Osama (9/11 commission report) I also touched on some of the reports of WMD’s which most people dismiss. For some reason when reports confirming the existence of chemical and biological weapons are found it is quickly pointed out that these discoveries are far from “stockpiles”. I would argue that a discovery of even one drop of chemical or biological weapons material would qualify as proof, but some will argue the stockpiling angle (I will give evidence of stockpiling-on-demand later). I have seen several stories of buried aircraft, millions of dollars worth of chemical war heads being intercepted by Kuwait, vials of Sarin being found, and several labs with the equipment necessary to produce biological weapons. But I know I’m not going to get away with not citing sources or worse yet citing sources deemed bias (which I agree there are many bias sources on both sides) so I will stick with the reliable sources for this argument.
So let’s look at a few reports on the actual weapons found.

“The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy……Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group — a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction — and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective…...They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for 450 aerial bombs with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells, totaled about 80 tons of unaccounted for mustard gas.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.htmlard gas.

ABC has a report on it to (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1115960.htm).

To be fair there is an argument that says these are the leftovers from Saddam’s original arsenal, but I thought he was supposed to have destroyed all those weapons. Ok fair enough I mean it’s not like he was going to make any more WMD’s right.

“BAGHDAD -- US troops raiding a warehouse in the northern city of Mosul uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory containing 1,500 gallons of chemicals believed destined for attacks on US and Iraqi forces and civilians, military officials said yesterday…….
The early morning raid last Monday found 11 precursor agents, ''some of them quite dangerous by themselves," a military spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Steven Boylan, said in Baghdad.
Combined, the chemicals would yield an agent capable of ''lingering hazards" for those exposed to it, Boylan said. The likely targets would have been ''coalition and Iraqi security forces, and Iraqi civilians," partly because the chemicals would be difficult to keep from spreading over a wide area, he said.”


Again I want to be fair so if you read the whole article you will find this about what type of chemicals where found and whether or not it was Hussein or foreign terrorists responsible for the lab.

“Military officials did not immediately identify either the precursors or the agent they could have produced. ''We don't want to speculate on any possibilities until our analysis is complete," Colonel Henry Franke, a nuclear, biological, and chemical defense officer, said in a military statement.
Investigators still were trying to determine who had assembled the alleged lab and whether the expertise came from foreign insurgents or former members of Hussein's security apparatus, the military said”

http://www.boston.com/news/world/ar...d_chemical_weapons_factory_uncovered_in_iraq/

So we have mustard and sarin gas that may be a leftover peace from Saddam’s supposedly destroyed arsenal and a chemical weapons factory that may or may not have been set up by Saddam. Well that won’t work around here now will it, so maybe I should show some proof that Saddam was at least hiding some of his old stockpiles and planning on creating a network in order to “Stockpile-on-demand”.

So that brings us to Mr. David Kay, you know the guy from the Iraq Survey Group, the group set up to look for WMD’s.
Let’s see what he has to say.

“We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:”
(I will list just a few)
• A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.
• Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.
• New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.
• Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).
• A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.
• Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment. "

Well then, that is a little scary. But wait there is more.

“With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information - including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agent.”
Great read, I would highly recommend it.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html

Wow, can you imagine someone hiding WMD’s, and I thought we would just jump right in there and ol’ Saddam would put his hands up and say something like “Come on guys, I was only playing around. Why all the hostility, all you had to do was ask nicely. Here you go.”
Here comes a little more fun bits of info, this time from Mr. Charles Duelfer, his official title is Director of Central Intelligence Special Advisor for Strategy regarding Iraqi Weapons
of Mass Destruction (WMD) Programs.

“Much data related to Iraq’s WMD programs has been gathered. It is clear that Iraq was in violation of UN Resolutions, including UNSCR 1441……The ISG has developed new information regarding Iraq’s dual-use facilities and ongoing research suitable for a capability to produce biological or chemical agents on short notice. Iraq did have facilities suitable for the production of biological and chemical agents needed for weapons. It had plans to improve and expand and even build new facilities……..With respect to chemical production, Iraq was working up to March 2003 to construct new facilities for the production of chemicals. There were plans under the direction of a leading nuclear scientist/WMD program manager to construct plants capable of making a variety of chemicals and producing a year’s supply of any chemical in a month.”

Oh, now I understand, we took over the country to fast, you see if we would have waited just a little longer then Saddam would have had time to create his WMD’s. Damn, instead of waiting until Saddam could build and use his WMD’s against us we just rushed right in there and stopped him. I bet Bush is kicking himself for not waiting.

Hold on there’s more.

“In addition to WMD technologies, the ISG has continued to uncover a very robust program for delivery systems that were not reported to the UN. New information has been discovered relating to long-range ballistic missile development and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). Missiles and UAVs were flight tested that easily exceeded the UN limit of 150 kilometers.“

So there we have it, chemical weapons where found in Iraq, ISG reports show that Saddam had dozens of WMD related programs that where hidden from UN inspectors. CIA reports show that “Iraq was in violation of UN Resolutions, including UNSCR 1441.” They also found proof that Saddam was capable of producing WMD’s in very short time if and when he deemed it fit to do so. They also concluded that he was developing the delivery systems to reach further then the UN limit.
Ok then, let the arguments fly.
 
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Simon W. Moon

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In the interests of brevity, I'll just refer you to the results of the last time you started what is essentially the same thread:

Who’s lying to who

The refutations made earlier are still valid.

ps
Your links're broken
 

Hoot

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Gdalton....your post proves nothing...most of your links don't work, and the one I could find that does work was from the Boston Globe citing chemicals found in Iraq in the Northwestern city of Mosul, very close to the Syrian border, and dated August, 2005.

Do you believe those chemicals were there when Saddam was in power?

Or is it more likely they came across the border from Syria?

Perhaps you aren't aware that chemical weapons only have a shelf life of about 2 years....IF the components that make the deadly agent are kept separate...if the components are mixed, thus creating the deadly agent, shelf life is measured in months before they rapidly lose toxicity.
 
G

gdalton

Hoot said:
Gdalton....your post proves nothing...most of your links don't work, and the one I could find that does work was from the Boston Globe citing chemicals found in Iraq in the Northwestern city of Mosul, very close to the Syrian border, and dated August, 2005.

Do you believe those chemicals were there when Saddam was in power?

Or is it more likely they came across the border from Syria?

Perhaps you aren't aware that chemical weapons only have a shelf life of about 2 years....IF the components that make the deadly agent are kept separate...if the components are mixed, thus creating the deadly agent, shelf life is measured in months before they rapidly lose toxicity.
Sorry about the links, I'm not sure how to fix them. I did mention in my post that in all fairness to that story we don't know if the sarin came from somewhere else. As for the mustard gas the report said quote "They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom". I will let that statement stand on it's own.

Thanks for the info on the shelf life of CW, but the weapons should have been destroyed per UN instruction, not stored improperly.
 

SouthernDemocrat

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How can you "make the case" when the Bush Administration itself cannot "make the case".

When are you right wingers going to give it up. There was no threat. How many independent commissions need to tell you that before you get it. Yes there was a few remnants of former stockpiles and programs, but nothing of substance at all. Iraq was a third rate country, ruled by a third rate dictator, who was in middle east terms, a minor player in terrorism. Thats the facts.

I guess you will do you have with Vietnam and spend the next 30 years trying to refight this war too.
 
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G

gdalton

SouthernDemocrat said:
When are you right wingers going to give it up. There was not threat. How many independent commissions need to tell you that before you get it.

I guess you will do you have with Vietnam and spend the next 30 years trying to refight this war too.
I have yet to cast my vote for a republican, so how can I be a right winger.

If you would take the time to actually read the independent commission reports you might see the threat. But then again you might only see intentions and planning and not consider that a threat.

I’m only trying to change your mind.:2wave:
 

cnredd

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SouthernDemocrat said:
How can you "make the case" when the Bush Administration itself cannot "make the case".

When are you right wingers going to give it up. There was no threat. How many independent commissions need to tell you that before you get it. Yes there was a few remnants of former stockpiles and programs, but nothing of substance at all. Iraq was a third rate country, ruled by a third rate dictator, who was in middle east terms, a minor player in terrorism. Thats the facts.

I guess you will do you have with Vietnam and spend the next 30 years trying to refight this war too.
Breaking out the "broad-brush" again, I see.:roll:
 
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The U.N. has been worried where the non-existant items have gone off to since early this last summer.

Missing Iraq Weapons Concern U.N.

I'm sure that it will turn out that these items are somewhere being used to feed the hungry or make medicine or whatever "dual-use" purpose you could imagine except to kill people with.

Anyway, the U.N. is hot on the trail, so I feel better already. :cool:
 

GarzaUK

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The war had nothing to do with WMD's that was just a legal sharade to convince the UN and the US nation to go to war.

It was all to do with replacing Saddam with a pro-American liberal democracy who would of course give the US a lucrative access to it's oil.

It's been on the neo-con agenda at least for nearly a decade, to ensure US supremacy of the world for the next 20-30 years.
It back-fired.
 
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