The Eucharist

[zyzygy]

Jesus isn't dead.

Your proof of that would be what?

 

[it's just me]

I didn't make a claim. I shared my personal story of a Lutheran ritual I was forced to participate in in my youth and asked a question about that Christian ritual. As for your stalking me,go right ahead...that's on you and certainly is no skin off my backside....just so ya know

Playing victim again are we?

 

[it's just me]

It's the contextomy logical fallacy- taking another person's words and presenting them out of context to change the meaning instead of addressing what the person actually wrote.

Oh ****, now I'm doing that silly crap with logical fallacies that gfm7175 does (except he usually gets them wrong anyway)

I need to go drink some wine - white, not red.

Facts are stubborn things, and the fact is that this guy didn't get his "cannibalism" claim from the Lutherans.

 

[Quaestio]

Your proof of that would be what?

Eating his living flesh in the form of a wafer?

 

[Quaestio]

Facts are stubborn things, and the fact is that this guy didn't get his "cannibalism" claim from the Lutherans.

He said 'pseudo-cannibalism'. It's a 'fact' that you are stubbornly misrepresenting what he said.

I had the same thought about 'cannibalism' as a kid during Catholic mass when the priest spoke of the body of Christ and blood of Christ before he ate the wafer and drank the wine. Then we all had to line up for communion. I also remember thinking it wasn't very hygenic with the priest sticking his fingers into everyone's mouths. His fingers smelled of bad breath.

 

[it's just me]

He said 'pseudo-cannibalism'. It's a 'fact' that you are stubbornly misrepresenting what he said.

I had the same thought about 'cannibalism' as a kid during Catholic mass when the priest spoke of the body of Christ and blood of Christ before he ate the wafer and drank the wine. Then we all had to line up for communion. I also remember thinking it wasn't very hygenic with the priest sticking his fingers into everyone's mouths. His fingers smelled of bad breath.

"Pseudo Canmibalism": weasel words to make it sound like something it isn't.

Number one, the Priest washes his hands before the people communicate, it's part of the ritual, number two, placing a wafer on your tongue is not "sticking his fingers into everyone's mouths".

 

[Quaestio]

"Pseudo Canmibalism": weasel words to make it sound like something it isn't.

Number one, the Priest washes his hands before the people communicate, it's part of the ritual, number two, placing a water on your tongue is not "sticking his fingers into everyone's mouths".

Mate, I remember my OWN experiences very well. You weren't there, so stop telling me what YOU think this priest did.

This priest, when putting the wafer in people's mouths, would stick his fingers in. I used to try to be one of the first people in the queue because his fingers weren't as smelly at the beginning.

I think we can see who is doing the 'weaselling' in this thread. It's you.

 

[it's just me]

Mate, I remember my OWN experiences very well. You weren't there, so stop telling me what YOU think this priest did.

This priest, when putting the wafer in people's mouths, would stick his fingers in. I used to try to be one of the first people in the queue because his fingers weren't as smelly at the beginning.

I think we can see who is doing the 'weaselling' in this thread. It's you.

Mate, I am very familiar with the Novus Ordo rite, and I can assure you that getting his hands anywhere near your mouth ain't the high point of his day either. I, too have communicated in more than one RC Church.

So why don't you just stick to the facts instead of making spurious anecdotal claims?

 

[Quaestio]

Mate, I am very familiar with the Novus Ordo rite, and I can assure you that getting his hands anywhere near your mouth ain't the high point of his day either.

So why don't you just stick to the facts instead of making spurious anecdotal claims?

Mate, you can pull your head in and stop accusing me of lying about my own experiences and claiming you 'know' better than I do what happened. Did you go to Catholic mass in Australia at the same church and at the same time I did as a kid? No. I'm sticking to the facts of what happened when I was a kid. I'm not claiming that's what all Catholic priests did because obviously I have no idea if they did or not (and neither do you).

You're the one making up 'spurious' claims about other people's experiences.

 

[it's just me]

Mate, you can pull your head in and stop accusing me of lying about my own experiences and claiming you 'know' better than I do what happened. Did you go to Catholic mass in Australia at the same church and at the same time I did as a kid? No.

Let's just say I am skeptical about your claims, then, in the absence of evidence. It's what we do here.

 

[Quaestio]

Let's just say I am skeptical about your claims, then, in the absence of evidence. It's what we do here.

And you had zero evidence for your claims about what happened to ME when I was a kid, but still you pissed into a fan anyway and it blew back in your face.

 

[PoS]

I didn't make a claim. I shared my personal story of a Lutheran ritual I was forced to participate in in my youth and asked a question about that Christian ritual. As for your stalking me,go right ahead...that's on you and certainly is no skin off my backside....just so ya know

LOL he claims to be an expert on everything doesnt he?

 

[nota bene]

The person doesn't need to be dead for a cannibal to eat their flesh and drink their blood. Not even cooked.

But I think we all know (I hope) that this is just a symbol anyway and the wafer and blood don't really turn into the body and blood of anyone who had ever lived.

I Googled around yesterday and found several sites that address and explain this issue. Here is one that I have to regrettably excerpt (but you can read the piece, of course, in its entirety yourself):

In the Eucharist, there is a "third party", so to speak: the accidental properties of the bread and wine, which remain and render so that the flesh is not consumed under the form of flesh, but under the sacramental signs of bread and wine. There is the Body and Blood of Christ, and us who receive it, but God allows the accidental properties of bread and wine to remain. The presence of these accidental properties are what allows us to say that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord under the forms of bread and wine and not under the form of flesh. So, we do not deny that flesh is immediately and directly consumed, but we do deny that it is flesh under the form of flesh.

Thus, the argument that the Eucharist is cannibalism does not hold weight.
Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

Here is another, and it does go on to offer six reasons "why the Eucharist and cannibalism are qualitatively, or essentially, different things":

Cannibalism implies here the actual chewing, swallowing, and metabolizing of flesh and blood either after or during the killing of a human being; at least, if we stick to definition #1.

Catholics do not do any of this in the Eucharist. Though Christ is substantially present—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the Eucharist, the accidents of bread and wine remain. Here it is important to define terms. When the Church teaches the bread and wine at Mass are transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, we have to understand what this means. The word, transubstantiation, literally means “transformation of the substance.” “Substance” refers to that which makes a thing essentially what it is. Thus, “substance” and “essence” are synonyms. For example, man is essentially comprised of body, soul, intellect, and will. If you remove any one of these, he is no longer a human person. The accidents or accidentals would be things like hair color, eye color, size, weight, etc. One can change any of these and there would be no change in the essence or substance of the person.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/are-catholics-cannibals

 

[Quaestio]

I Googled around yesterday and found several sites that address and explain this issue. Here is one that I have to regrettably excerpt (but you can read the piece, of course, in its entirety yourself):

In the Eucharist, there is a "third party", so to speak: the accidental properties of the bread and wine, which remain and render so that the flesh is not consumed under the form of flesh, but under the sacramental signs of bread and wine. There is the Body and Blood of Christ, and us who receive it, but God allows the accidental properties of bread and wine to remain. The presence of these accidental properties are what allows us to say that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord under the forms of bread and wine and not under the form of flesh. So, we do not deny that flesh is immediately and directly consumed, but we do deny that it is flesh under the form of flesh.

Thus, the argument that the Eucharist is cannibalism does not hold weight.
Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

Here is another, and it does go on to offer six reasons "why the Eucharist and cannibalism are qualitatively, or essentially, different things":

Cannibalism implies here the actual chewing, swallowing, and metabolizing of flesh and blood either after or during the killing of a human being; at least, if we stick to definition #1.

Catholics do not do any of this in the Eucharist. Though Christ is substantially present—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the Eucharist, the accidents of bread and wine remain. Here it is important to define terms. When the Church teaches the bread and wine at Mass are transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, we have to understand what this means. The word, transubstantiation, literally means “transformation of the substance.” “Substance” refers to that which makes a thing essentially what it is. Thus, “substance” and “essence” are synonyms. For example, man is essentially comprised of body, soul, intellect, and will. If you remove any one of these, he is no longer a human person. The accidents or accidentals would be things like hair color, eye color, size, weight, etc. One can change any of these and there would be no change in the essence or substance of the person.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/are-catholics-cannibals

Um... I don't think anyone was serious about actual cannibalism, which is why Logician Man called it 'pseudo-cannibalism' in his OP.

But this shows just how twisty and convoluted one has to get to try to 'rationally' explain 'transubstantiation' as anything other than just symbolism.

 

[nota bene]

Um... I don't think anyone was serious about actual cannibalism, which is why Logician Man called it 'pseudo-cannibalism' in his OP.

But this shows just how twisty and convoluted one has to get to try to 'rationally' explain 'transubstantiation' as anything other than just symbolism.

Oh, but many people are serious about the cannibalism bit. My own sister, a Wiccan priestess/shaman/whatever, and her husband, also a witch and also a former Catholic just loved telling people this, so yesterday wasn't the first time I've Googled about this.

 

[it's just me]

And you had zero evidence for your claims about what happened to ME when I was a kid, but still you pissed into a fan anyway and it blew back in your face.

The burden of proof is on you, Ace.

 

[it's just me]

LOL he claims to be an expert on everything doesnt he?

Now there's the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[Quaestio]

Oh, but many people are serious about the cannibalism bit. My own sister, a Wiccan priestess/shaman/whatever, and her husband, also a witch and also a former Catholic just loved telling people this, so yesterday wasn't the first time I've Googled about this.

Do you think it's just symbolism or do you believe the explanations you sourced? Thanks for those by the way, they were interesting. It's been a long time since I even thought about it.

Maybe your sister and her husband are just having a laugh? But you know them, I don't. People say all sorts of silly stuff.
I personally haven't thought of it as real cannibalism and never did even as a kid- just that it sounded like cannibalism.

 

[Quaestio]

The burden of proof is on you, Ace.

I was just telling an anecdotal story of what happened when I was a kid, Einstein. Not making any sort of claim about all Catholic priests or the Eucharist or anything else.

You made a claim that you supposedly 'knew' what the priest did and didn't do at my church when I was a kid. So are you claiming to have been there? Are you all knowing? Can you tell us the name of the church, the years I attended and the name of the priest?

You're posts are getting smellier and smellier just like the priest's fingers after he had them in everyone's mouths... or like pissing into a fan.

 

[it's just me]

I was just telling an anecdotal story of what happened when I was a kid, Einstein. Not making any sort of claim about all Catholic priests or the Eucharist or anything else.

You made a claim that you supposedly 'knew' what the priest did and didn't do at my church when I was a kid. So are you claiming to have been there? Are you all knowing? Can you tell us the name of the church, the years I attended and the name of the priest?

You're posts are getting smellier and smellier just like the priest's fingers after he had them in everyone's mouths... or like pissing into a fan.

The very poster you are defending has claimed to know more about other posters than they know about themselves, and he's not the only one so get used to it.

I don't really care one way or the other but it sounded an awful lot like you were deflecting there and after having read some of your posts I was disappointed that you decided to stick up for this guy.

 

[Quaestio]

The very poster you are defending has claimed to know more about other posters than they know about themselves, and he's not the only one so get used to it.

I don't really care one way or the other but it sounded an awful lot like you were deflecting there and after having read some of your posts I was disappointed that you decided to stick up for this guy.

I haven't been in this B and S sub-forum long but I've seen no evidence of that from him. However, I've seen you do that very thing in this thread yourself. Seriously mate, go find someone else to piss and moan at. You've done your dash with me after this thread where you've called me a liar and claimed to know better than I do what I experienced as a kid.

 

[it's just me]

I haven't been in this B and S sub-forum long but I've seen no evidence of that from him. However, I've seen you do that very thing in this thread yourself. Seriously mate, go find someone else to piss and moan at. You've done your dash with me after this thread where you've called me a liar and claimed to know better than I do what I experienced as a kid.

Then go look in the basement for threads about a poster named Turtledude who is a lawyer and a Yale graduate. Your friend has accused him on numerous occasions of no being who he says he is and I was just trying to instruct him in this thread about the importance of being truthful then you came along and started in on me. I wouldn't have even said anything about the fingers in the mouth thing if it hadn't been for that.

So go in peace, you'll have no more trouble from me.

 

[PoS]

Now there's the pot calling the kettle black...

LOL unlike you I never claimed to know another's personal details. Does god feed you all this intel via prayer or a burning bush?

 

[it's just me]

LOL unlike you I never claimed to know another's personal details. Does god feed you all this intel via prayer or a burning bush?

You claim to know mine. How many times have you called me an impostor AND been chastised by the moderators for doing it?

But we are getting off the topic.

 

[nota bene]

Do you think it's just symbolism or do you believe the explanations you sourced? Thanks for those by the way, they were interesting. It's been a long time since I even thought about it.

You're welcome. There are probably better sources; I just took the first two hits on Google.

Maybe your sister and her husband are just having a laugh? But you know them, I don't. People say all sorts of silly stuff.

I personally haven't thought of it as real cannibalism and never did even as a kid- just that it sounded like cannibalism.

My little sister and her husband, both licensed pagan ministers in the state of New York. are both now dead. I'm not sure whether either really believed this, but they definitely enjoyed shocking and offending others. If someone is unfamiliar with consubstantiation and transubstantiation, I can see how the cannibalism thing might might make superficial sense.