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The End of NATO

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sanman

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What will replace it?
 
NATO is not finished. Trump's a ****ing idiot. I can't believe anyone still believes a word he says. Even if the U.S. left NATO, it would be just fine.
 
SEATO?
 
I watched the entire video. Where do you get the idea that it is "the end of NATO"? In fact...really...nothing has changed. Trumps position (one that echoes Obama's position) is that NATO must pay their fair share.

Why does that seems like such a foreign concept to you?
 
props for taking the time to watch an OP video. I wont do it
 
Sweden said:
You are right. NATO has 32 members. No one member, however important, has the right to close it down.
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So NATO would remain with 31 members. The U.S. would likely come to the aid of the EU as it did when our European allies needed help before, should it become necessary.
 
Is your post directed at @sanman ?
 
Sweden said:
You are right. NATO has 32 members. No one member, however important, has the right to close it down.
Click to expand...

Huh? Mandatory enshacklement to NATO?
Trump's not saying the rest of you can't do what you want.
He's just saying that if you want American participation, then you better carry your own weight.
(BTW, FYI, the rest of NATO doesn't matter without USA, no matter how comforting you find those Danish dogsledding patrol teams)

America: We'll participate - if you pull your own weight - we won't carry you
Europeans: B-b-but, that's expensive... muh social welfare spending...
America: We're not doing the same social spending -- because we're pulling your weight -- so that's something you need to do from now on -- the free ride is over

THE VASSALS ARE REVOLTING! PUT DOWN THEIR REBELLION NOW! TIME TO SEND ANOTHER TEENAGER WITH RIFLE ONTO SLOPED ROOF!
 
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It's the end of NATO as we've known it. If the European members can pony up and carry their own weight, then it can carry on.
But if they continue balking, as they've certainly been doing up until now, then it's likely not going to be acceptable to Americans.

The reigning Leftists in Europe feel their bread is buttered thru socialist politics and social welfare state programs.
How they run their societies is their business, but if they want US in NATO, then they have to meet the defense spending requirements.
If they insist on trying to choose social welfare spending at the expense of defense spending, then the arrangement can't work.
We can see that they're insisting on the right to creatively interpret the defense spending clauses in the NATO agreement.
They want to assert that "We'll spend 2% and say it's just as good as 5% - becoz that math suits us"
The only math that matters in defense matters is real math. Make-believe math, pretend math doesn't add up to shit.
 

The End of NATO​

It's about time. It's reason for existence disappeared 35 years ago.
 
Mycroft said:

The End of NATO​

It's about time. It's reason for existence disappeared 35 years ago.
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I think Russia is still a threat and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
 
Sweden said:
I think Russia is still a threat and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
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Russia is a pale remnant of the Soviet Union. Europe is completely different than it was 76 years ago.

The EU, alone, could easily defend themselves against an attack by Russia...if they didn't depend upon the US to do it for them. It's about time they stand on their own two feet.
 
Sweden said:
I think Russia is still a threat and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
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And I think @sanman is confused. The US spends its money giving tax cuts to billionaires. If it didn't, it could spend a huge amount more on the well being of the citizens of this country. It's our country, you know? Why shouldn't we have good roads and bridges? Why shouldn't we have a well staffed Social Security Department? Why shouldn't hospitals in rural areas stay open? Why should wealthy people buy up our jails and our Postal Service? Doesn't anyone remember the pride we once had in the Postal Service? My brother and I grew up on westerns about the Pony Express and how the mail always got through.

We can afford social welfare and self-defense against tyrants like Putin if Trump and the other Republicans don't give all our money away to the billionaires (read: oligarchs).
 

I believe the Pony Express was a private enterprise.
 
As the world's most powerful nation, it is in our best interest to be generous and have our allies rely on us than for us to threaten them with abandonment.

Our system of allies is one of our most powerful weapons.

Pericles recognized this exceptionalism about Athens in 431 BC:

"In doing good, again, we are unlike others; we make our friends by conferring, not by receiving favors. Now he who confers a favor is the firmer friend, because he would rather by kindness keep alive the memory of an obligation; but the recipient is colder in his feelings, because he knows that in requiting another's generosity he will not be winning gratitude but only paying a debt. We alone do good to our neighbors not upon a calculation of interest, but in the confidence of freedom and in a frank and fearless spirit."

Link
 
Individual said:
If we need replace NATO, considering where I live reviving SEATO would suit me.
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With SEATO folded up in 1977 as noted in scrolling now there's ASEAN founded in the 1950s. ASEAN has expanded to its pretty much permanent 10 SE Asian nations at the South China Sea and Malacca Strait along the western coast of Malaysia at the Andaman Sea.

Asean began as a society of elites who kibitzed at annual meetings in different countries to renew old acquaintances, have copious dinners and attend meetings that praised their monarchs, presidents and dictators. The ASEAN HQ offices are in Jakarta Indonesia which is the big dog on the block.

When the EU was formed and the Eurodollar came along ASEAN introduced economics and finance into its chummy doings while agreeing there never could be an Asean regional currency. Cambodia for instance uses the US Dollar as its primary currency and the Laos currency isn't worth a dime in Laos itself. A number of banks and businesses expanded to certain other Asean countries; university faculty and students and civil society groups exchanged visits to include studies.

With Trump The Madman busting up USA alliances and because of the thousands year old Bully China, Asean established its international military cooperation dialogue via its existing Defense Ministers Dialogue. Until then the Defense Ministers met to talk about all the modern equipment they were going to buy but which rarely happened blah blah; this was done with copious winks and nods. So where the Defense chiefs used to be a Band of Bullshitters, now cooperation and coordination has become a serious priority -- although most countries military equipment is dated because it's always cheaper to buy old stuff and the US military is right there. Indeed, the only action Thailand tanks from Switzerland have seen are coups -- bloodless coups.

Global Firepower ranks Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand as the strongest and largest military forces in ASEAN, followed next by the moneybags Singapore whose force is comparatively small but the most modern one, the most highly sophisticated and with a high quality leadership. Moreover, Singapore and Taiwan have long been as tight as Poland and Ukraine which goes back to the chaotic founding of Singapore when Taiwan on its own hustled over to set 'em up. Chinese don't forget. Most of the Singapore AF practices and is based on Taiwan which drives the CCP Bois in Beijing up the wall. Singapore keeps telling the Bois to get over it and no harm done by it. Taiwan shrugs and goes about its business deterring the CCP.

The ASEAN logo since 1957 is a bale of golden wheat staffs which has long since become overrun by urban skylines.
 
Mycroft said:

The End of NATO​

It's about time. It's reason for existence disappeared 35 years ago.
Click to expand...
Nay but it's true common sense conservatives disappeared since long before that. Today's conservatives are 20th century fascists reborn into 21st century America. Your Hero Trumph.
 
NATO is stronger because of Trump. Both terms he pushed NATO members to increase the portions they spend to defend NATO. That's a good thing. I believe the current amount is a trillion dollars more based on the previous increase Trump initiated. It's going to get larger and to defend NATO members this is a good thing as the Secretary General of NATO commented.
 
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