The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation

[Rainman05]

the westerner always has to claim their civilisation have their roots in greek culture .why ? because they couldnt develop their own civilisation for hundreds of years in the history .whats more the dark middle age period dominated by abusive catholic church proves why they had to exploit teh rest of the world in order not to die of hunger.


where did l say the opposite ?

is there any other ancient civilisation except greek roman ?

no

so they need some roots!

German. breton. pictish. Iberic. Dacian. Scythian. Scandinavian tribes. Gaelic. Celtic. Basque. Irish... need I go on? etc

 

[ecofarm]

the fake democracy which isnt applied to the other countries ?

Where is real democracy?

only imperialism may be in bed with fake muslims....

Who are the fake Muslims, the moderates?

 

[Rainman05]

This westerner has never claimed his perspective has anything to do with Greece or Greek culture. I claim to be civilized on the basis of my understanding of gender equality, human rights, and civil liberties.



I wasn't alive during the period you speak of. You weren't alive during the period you speak of. So, what exactly did you have to do with the development of civilization? Never mind, I'll answer my own question -- nothing. So you couldn't develop your own civilization either -- you had to resort to benefiting from what someone else had laid out for you.

Ergo, you're as much a thief of civilization as you think we are. :lol:

Not really. Whatever we "stole" we made it better than it was before. Not to mention that in the pre-fast travel/easy access/mass communication world we live in today, and have only for at best, 90-110 years, any cultural notion from one side of the world wouldn't travel intact to another part.

Especially not 2000 years ago. So lets take the silk trade for instance. The silk trade did extend from China to Europe, but it wasn't like a one way no stop train. It was a chain of merchants. An object made in Europe, a pottery or a book, would have to exchange hundred of hands before it would reach China, if it did at all. Same for the other way around. Let's say there would be a story about, I don't know, A man called Belerephon slaying a Chimera. This story started in Greece... it was heard by a merchant who went to Bagdad. there while he bartered, he told it to another one who went to Persia. The persian would then tell it to an indian but with numerous differences because it was told to him slightly different. The indian then goes to SE asia where he tells it to another merchant there, but by now, it's not belerephon but Rajash and he didn't slay a chimera but a Kamadhenu and he did it to appease to gods. The SE asian guy would then go to Taiwan where he would tell the story again in his own way.

This is how stuff traveled back then, and this is a simple example. In reality, ofc, things would be a lot more convoluted.

 

[DDD]

Illiryans (today Albanians) and today's Dardanians are just as ancient as Greeks.

 

[code1211]

no you can never see me insult the christianity . you must have missed many of my posts in religion forum

İ usually insult bigots ,not religions or believers

You have missed my point entirely.

I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

Could you please state your thesis clearly and concisely?

 

[Medusa]

No.

Western society has nothing to do with migratory paterns because, what do you know, nothing was invented back then. I think you don't comprehend what civilization means. It's not a matter of who went where, it's a matter of who said what when, what survived. We have nothing from Ethiopia. Show me the amazing Ethiopian sculptures, texts and other works that display Ethiopian civilization as part of Western civilization. You can't because there are none.

I can however show you a great deal of Greek ones.

Also, Eupedia is not an official EU site. It's held by some private people who have private agendas so I wouldn't trust what they put out because it's called eupedia. How do I know?
Well, for one, it ends in .com ; EU sites end in .eu ; Secondly, the map of the EU it has isn't updated to include Croatia.

So anything you posted as a source from it is BS.

relax ,l believe you are white ,rainman

no no ,whiter than white

 

[Medusa]

It's been factually found that commerce between the East and West has been occurring through time immemorial. So much so that artifacts found in South American sites indicate that there was trade between the mid East and South American civilization.
Grecian tribes historically were known to trade with Asian. Remember the Silk road to China through what we know as Egypt today.
Romans and Asians continually traded and exchanged technologies.

So what's new?

they were native americans ,not westerner

 

[ashurbanipal]

the westerner always has to claim their civilisation have their roots in greek culture .why ?

Well, my answer is because it's true.

because they couldnt develop their own civilisation for hundreds of years in the history.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this point. It's not as if the dark ages (assuming this is the hundreds of years to which you refer) erased the heritage of Greek culture.

whats more the dark middle age period dominated by abusive catholic church proves why they had to exploit teh rest of the world in order not to die of hunger.

I'm reasonably well versed in the history of the Middle Ages. I have no idea why you would say this.

where did l say the opposite ?

The opposite of what?

is there any other ancient civilisation except greek roman ?

no

so they need some roots!

Two points:

1) Of course there are other ancient civilizations besides Greek and Roman: Egyptian, Summerian, Akkadian, Hittite, Harrapan, Babylonian, Persian, Scythian, etc.

2) Your point, if there is one here, seems to support my position, rather than yours.

One thing I wish to clarify is that I do not claim that western culture is superior to all others. It seems to me that all cultures and civilizations have something to offer. There is a great deal to admire about the Greeks and the Romans. But there is also a great deal that is worthy of criticism. The same can be said for other civilizations, whether ancient or modern.

 

[Medusa]

...............

 

[Diving Mullah]

some people tell the king that he is naked




The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation, written by John M. Hobson in 2004, is a book that argues against the historical theory of the rise of the West after 1492 as a "virgin birth",[1] but rather as a product of Western interactions with more technically and socially advanced Eastern civilization.

The text reinterprets Eurocentric ideas of Europe's contributions to world development. For example, it provides evidence that a complex system of global trade existed long before Mercantilist Europe, that social and economic theories in the Enlightenment came from encounters with new cultures rather than with Greek and Roman heritage, and that modern European hegemony resulted from situational advantages rather than from inherent superior traits.




The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an important book of comparative and historical sociology. It is both a punchy polemic against Eurocentrism and an impressive gathering of evidence on the historical development of Europe and Asia. Hobson argues that the many inventions which supposedly enabled Europe to dominate the world were actually diffused to Europe from Asia (usually from China) and that Asia/China remained as developed as Europe until the 19th century--and mostly he convinces." Michael Mann, author of Sources of Social Power (2 volumes)

Eastern Origins Western Civilisation :: Political sociology :: Cambridge University Press

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the westerner always has to claim their civilisation have their roots in greek culture .why ? because they couldnt develop their own civilisation for hundreds of years in the history .whats more the dark middle age period dominated by abusive catholic church proves why they had to exploit teh rest of the world in order not to die of hunger.

their geographic discoveries had to start because they needed to find other ways to reach the famous silk and spice routes which were beign controlled by ottomans.

then they got rich and rich that created a bourgeoisie class in europe which will open to a door to teh period of renaissance.

Funny you brought that up...

Yesterday I went and saw the Cyrus Cylinder.... now on a US tour. For those who don't know....Cyrus Cylinder is a cylinder 2500 year old piece of clay written by Cyrus the great the Persian King (Iran) after capturing Babylon peacefully and freeing the Jews and other slaves and letting them go back and he also allowed other cultures and religions to flourish returned all the loot back to religious temples and ruled the region as a United Kingdom with many religions and cultures under their own sovereignty. The Cylinder is often called the first call to Human Rights... The Cyrus cylinder actually belongs to British Museum but a duplicate copy sits in UN Nation as well. Cyrus's words gain notoriety Again during the Renascence era through a book called Cyropaedia, Xenophon’s book on Cyrus, basically outline how rule an empire Justly based on teaching and words of King Cyrus!

Jefferson was known to have three copies of this book and it is thought that the book was one of the main foundation in forming the preamble to the US constitution.

BTW Cylinder will be S.F till September and later will go to Los Angels and few other cites around the country. If you have an opportunity to see it you should...not often you get to see a 2500 year old piece of human history of such epic significant on display.

Diving Mullah

 

[Medusa]

Funny you brought that up...

Yesterday I went and saw the Cyrus Cylinder.... now on a US tour. For those who don't know....Cyrus Cylinder is a cylinder 2500 year old piece of clay written by Cyrus the great the Persian King (Iran) after capturing Babylon peacefully and freeing the Jews and other slaves and letting them go back and he also allowed other cultures and religions to flourish returned all the loot back to religious temples and ruled the region as a United Kingdom with many religions and cultures under their own sovereignty. The Cylinder is often called the first call to Human Rights... The Cyrus cylinder actually belongs to British Museum but a duplicate copy sits in UN Nation as well. Cyrus's words gain notoriety Again during the Renascence era through a book called Cyropaedia, Xenophon’s book on Cyrus, basically outline how rule an empire Justly based on teaching and words of King Cyrus!

Jefferson was known to have three copies of this book and it is thought that the book was one of the main foundation in forming the preamble to the US constitution.

BTW Cylinder will be S.F till September and later will go to Los Angels and few other cites around the country. If you have an opportunity to see it you should...not often you get to see a 2500 year old piece of human history of such epic significant on display.

Diving Mullah

ancient history fascinates me

 

[Medusa]

German. breton. pictish. Iberic. Dacian. Scythian. Scandinavian tribes. Gaelic. Celtic. Basque. Irish... need I go on? etc

if so teh west should begin to be proud of their own culture instead of greeks whom they dont like in fact

 

[cpwill]

l started it for some ignorant snob westerners who claim the western civilisation is superior

thx for your care

1. Western civilization is superior, which is why so much of the rest of the world has moved to adopt portions of it.
2. I haven't read the book, but he seems to rely on many of the same anecdotes and gap-failures that people who make similar arguments rely upon. oh my goodness the Chinese invented gunpowder? no way! Gosh! oh, wait, they mostly used it for fireworks, and didn't use it to mass produce weapons that utilized gun powder, resulting in a series of military and social revolutions that ultimately fueled egalitarian overthrow of aristocratic society? Oh. :roll:

Feel free to hate on the Catholic Church for exercising political power. It was the Catholic Church which first made the argument that Political and Ecclesiastic power should be separated, giving you the intellectual tools to make that argument with. Feel free to hate on the Catholic Church for suppressing science. It was inside the Catholic Church that the scientific method was developed and protected and flowered giving you access to the base assumptions to measure the Church against. Feel free to hate on the West for abusing people. It was the West that came up with the idea that humans are not owned by their rulers or their society, but rather are each uniquely granted individual rights by God, and therefore shouldn't be abused. So feel free to hate on the West. It was the West that came up with the idea of the inalienable freedom of speech and conscience, allowing you to do so. You're welcome.

 

[Medusa]

1. Western civilization is superior, which is why so much of the rest of the world has moved to adopt portions of it.
2. I haven't read the book, but he seems to rely on many of the same anecdotes and gap-failures that people who make similar arguments rely upon. oh my goodness the Chinese invented gunpowder? no way! Gosh! oh, wait, they mostly used it for fireworks, and didn't use it to mass produce weapons that utilized gun powder, resulting in a series of military and social revolutions that ultimately fueled egalitarian overthrow of aristocratic society? Oh. :roll:

Feel free to hate on the Catholic Church for exercising political power. It was the Catholic Church which first made the argument that Political and Ecclesiastic power should be separated, giving you the intellectual tools to make that argument with. Feel free to hate on the Catholic Church for suppressing science. It was inside the Catholic Church that the scientific method was developed and protected and flowered giving you access to the base assumptions to measure the Church against. Feel free to hate on the West for abusing people. It was the West that came up with the idea that humans are not owned by their rulers or their society, but rather are each uniquely granted individual rights by God, and therefore shouldn't be abused. So feel free to hate on the West. It was the West that came up with the idea of the inalienable freedom of speech and conscience, allowing you to do so. You're welcome.

l like your fairy tales :lol:

 

[Rainman05]

if so teh west should begin to be proud of their own culture instead of greeks whom they dont like in fact

What? You have no clue about anything and area speaking purely on the basis of ignorance. I'm done with you. Feel free to waddle about in fantasies.

l like your fairy tales :lol:

To you it would seem like fairy tales. Reality and the truth always seem too far-fetched to the uninformed and uneducated so they seek refuge in their own ignorance.

 

[Captain Adverse]

the westerner always has to claim their civilisation have their roots in greek culture .why ? because they couldnt develop their own civilisation for hundreds of years in the history .whats more the dark middle age period dominated by abusive catholic church proves why they had to exploit teh rest of the world in order not to die of hunger.


where did l say the opposite ?

is there any other ancient civilisation except greek roman ?

no

so they need some roots!

The "westerner" can only claim what is the truth, and it is a truth that western civilization owes much to Ancient Greece. So what?

China, and most of the Far east claim their civilization was rooted in the Yangtze area of China and spread from there.

India and the Middle east claim their roots are in the Ganges and Tigris-Euphrates river systems, while Africans can point to Egypt and the Nile River. There was much trade between all these areas over thousands of years, and each learned a little bit from the others.

So I really don't understand your point? The prime reason that "Western Civilization" considered itself "superior" during a period of history is because it was able to exert military control over the rest of the world for about 400 years during their colonial expansion period. Again, that's past history...soooo what?

 

[cpwill]

l like your fairy tales :lol:

Said the girl with a picture of a man who understood what I posted so well he imported Westernism into his country to the point where he was willing to (if neccessary) brutally repress it's own culture. You know what else Attaturk took? Western governing assumptions. And what did he do with them? Tried to build a european-oriented westernized society.

But if you are willing to admit that I am correct and you are not on this, simply identify the claim there that you think represents a fairy tale, and I will demonstrate its veracity to you, at which point you can apologize . You won't take that deal, because it would expose you, but it's on the table.

 

[cpwill]

To you it would seem like fairy tales. Reality and the truth always seem too far-fetched to the uninformed and uneducated so they seek refuge in their own ignorance.

:shrug: she has 'nationalism' confused with 'rationalism'. It's part of what makes talking to that area of the world difficult, there is a broad, deep tendency to buy into problematic self-reinforcing narratives, even ridiculous conspiracy-theory versions. That is why, for example, only a relatively small minority of Turks believe that 9/11 was perpetuated by Arab Muslims.

 

[Medusa]

Said the girl with a picture of a man who understood what I posted so well he imported Westernism into his country to the point where he was willing to (if neccessary) brutally repress it's own culture. You know what else Attaturk took? Western governing assumptions. And what did he do with them? Tried to build a european-oriented westernized society.

But if you are willing to admit that I am correct and you are not on this, simply identify the claim there that you think represents a fairy tale, and I will demonstrate its veracity to you, at which point you can apologize . You won't take that deal, because it would expose you, but it's on the table.

democracy is not your invention ,cpwill

ancient turks used to respect democracy :lol:

l know you will laugh when you read it

but decide please

you mean the abusive church instutition provided democracy for you westerners

what a man :mrgreen:

 

[Medusa]

:shrug: she has 'nationalism' confused with 'rationalism'. It's part of what makes talking to that area of the world difficult, there is a broad, deep tendency to buy into problematic self-reinforcing narratives, even ridiculous conspiracy-theory versions. That is why, for example, only a relatively small minority of Turks believe that 9/11 was perpetuated by Arab Muslims.

devilish turks are imperialist

lets hate them :roll:

 

[Medusa]

What? You have no clue about anything and area speaking purely on the basis of ignorance. I'm done with you. Feel free to waddle about in fantasies.



To you it would seem like fairy tales. Reality and the truth always seem too far-fetched to the uninformed and uneducated so they seek refuge in their own ignorance.

stop pretending to misunderstand me rainman

you are smart enough to deny the facts which disturb you

the westerner needs greeks to feel good

but l dont ,however it is always me who likes greeks

EU wants ot get rid of them ,you know ?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/154017-chinese-pyramids.html

 

[cpwill]

devilish turks are imperialist

lets hate them :roll:

Not at all. Turkey is going to probably win, and re-extend her influence across much of the former Ottoman Empire. I think even the Kurds will eventually become a (admittedly awkward) client group. She's excellently well positioned.

 

[cpwill]

democracy is not your invention ,cpwill

That is correct nor would I want it to be when I have superior models such as representative republics.

ancient turks used to respect democracy :lol:

well... ancient anatolians did. because the Greeks colonized them. Turks come from further east.

l know you will laugh when you read it

but decide please

you mean the abusive church instutition provided democracy for you westerners

The Catholic Church? It gave us much of the necessary intellectual groundwork, yes. The separation of City of God and the City of Man's governance is necessary if one is to have a limited state capable of self-correction, after all. St Augustine

 

[code1211]

Not at all. Turkey is going to probably win, and re-extend her influence across much of the former Ottoman Empire. I think even the Kurds will eventually become a (admittedly awkward) client group. She's excellently well positioned.

I watched a show recently on the tube detailing the rise and recession of world powers through history and the advance of almost all preeminent societies pivoted on them being located at the center of the trading routes of the day plus the energetic exploitation of that happenstance.

It was an interesting take on the coincidence that creates the dominance.

Among the examples of history were Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, Spain, Britain and the US. Some were there by geography and others by empire. All controlled the avenues of trade whether it be the Silk Road or the DOW industrials.

 

[cpwill]

I watched a show recently on the tube detailing the rise and recession of world powers through history and the advance of almost all preeminent societies pivoted on them being located at the center of the trading routes of the day plus the energetic exploitation of that happenstance.

It was an interesting take on the coincidence that creates the dominance.

Among the examples of history were Egypt, Greece, Rome, Persia, Spain, Britain and the US. Some were there by geography and others by empire. All controlled the avenues of trade whether it be the Silk Road or the DOW industrials.

:shrug: I wouldn't ever turn down the geopolitical argument. That being said, it's a bit of a correlative, rather than causal, relationship. There was no reason (trade route wise) for London to rule 1/3 of the globe; but because she did, London became a major trade and financial hub.