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The DNA of Abraham’s Children

donsutherland1

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From Newsweek:

The latest DNA volume weighs in on the controversial, centuries-old (and now revived in a 2008 book) claim that European Jews are all the descendants of Khazars, a Turkic group of the north Caucasus who converted to Judaism in the late eighth and early ninth century. The DNA has spoken: no.

In the wake of studies in the 1990s that supported biblically based notions of a priestly caste descended from Aaron, brother of Moses, an ambitious new project to analyze genomes collected from Jewish volunteers has yielded its first discoveries. In a paper with the kind of catchy title you rarely see in science journals—“Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era”—scientists report that the Jews of the Diaspora share a set of telltale genetic markers, supporting the traditional belief that Jews scattered around the world have a common ancestry. But various Diaspora populations have their own distinct genetic signatures, shedding light on their origins and history. In addition to the age-old question of whether Jews are simply people who share a religion or are a distinct population, the scientific verdict is settling on the latter.
What We Can Learn From the Jewish Genome - Newsweek

The portions I underlined are significant as they refute some of the claims some have made in this forum concerning the realities of Jewish historic legitimacy in the Middle East and that the Jewish people are a distinct people. Hence, going back to the initial arguments about Israel's re-establishment, UNSCOP was, in fact, dealing with the needs of two distinct peoples, both of whom had historic legitimacy in the region.
 

Apocalypse

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One conspiracy theory down, a billion more to go.
 

Gardener

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You know, it's always nice to have some verification, but this issue reminds me of the discussion of Gay rights (not trying to derail here but merely draw a parallel) in that just as the discussion of Gay rights does not NEED any "proof" of a Gay gene, neither does a discussion of Jewish people need genetic proof. Especially as the haters will go on hating no matter the proof in either case, anybody who demands "proof" is already displaying their bias on the subject, and will just reject the proof.
 

bub

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From Newsweek:



What We Can Learn From the Jewish Genome - Newsweek

The portions I underlined are significant as they refute some of the claims some have made in this forum concerning the realities of Jewish historic legitimacy in the Middle East and that the Jewish people are a distinct people. Hence, going back to the initial arguments about Israel's re-establishment, UNSCOP was, in fact, dealing with the needs of two distinct peoples, both of whom had historic legitimacy in the region.
There are very legitimate reasons to let Jewish people have their own state (and I would never contest the right of Israel to exist), but DNA is certainly not one of them (Jewish people and Israeli have the right to live in Israel independently of their DNA)

For example:

"These ancestors are part of a growing body of fossil and DNA evidence indicating that modern humans arose in sub-Saharan Africa and began migrating, starting about 65,000 years ago"

DNA, Ancestry and Human Migration

Would these DNA evidences, showing that humans (including Europeans and thus Belgians) have some "historic legitimacy" in Subsaharan Africa, grant Belgians the right to found a colony in Congo?
 
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Tashah

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Oy vey. Even a scientific article gets pushed into the political mud-puddle.
 

Simon W. Moon

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What about Noah's children?
 

bub

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Oy vey. Even a scientific article gets pushed into the political mud-puddle.
Well then it is posted on the wrong part of the forum.

Furthermore if it was only a "scientific article", Donsutherland would not have talked about the "Jewish historic legitimacy in the Middle East", throwing the thread into the "political mud-puddle".

That is why I am suprised you thank his post and then say it is bad to argue about that.
 
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I love this article; I find this stuff fascinating.
Now if only I could figure out how someone of near pure (as far as I can ascertain) Pict and Gael descent ended up with olive skin and dark eyes and hair.
Recent studies have shown that less than half of one percent of Celts in Ireland have true brown eyes (35% have hazel or light admixtures; the rest have blue), including the so-called Black Irish, who have dark hair but still apparently have light eyes and fair skin prone to freckling.

It is very interesting to try and figure out our ancient tribal origins.
I care a lot more about the scientific/ socio-cultural aspect than I do about the political implications; even if Jewish people could prove they'd occupied the ground Israel sits on for the past ten thousand years, they still don't have any more innate right to possession of it than the Cherokees have to Georgia, or the Aztecs have to Mexico.
Things just don't work that way, in this world. You only have a right to what you can acquire and defend, it seems to me.
I wish people wouldn't conquer others and take away their stuff, but I recognize that as a naive and futile wish that has nothing to do with history or reality or human nature.
Conquest is human nature. Man's nature, anyway.
I often think women's nature is more about conservation than conquest.
 

donsutherland1

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Well then it is posted on the wrong part of the forum.

Furthermore if it was only a "scientific article", Donsutherland would not have talked about the "Jewish historic legitimacy in the Middle East", throwing the thread into the "political mud-puddle".

That is why I am suprised you thank his post and then say it is bad to argue about that.
Bub,

That Jewish historical legitimacy in the region can be demonstrated without using scientific evidence e.g., archaeological evidence, etc., is beyond question. However, from time to time, two lines of conspiracy theory had popped up in this forum:

1) Jewish people are descended from the Khazars.
2) The Jewish immigrants who came to the Near East were Europeans not a distinct people and UNSCOP erred in defining the Jewish people as a people on an equal footing with the region's Arab population.

The latest scientific findings specifically address those lines of conspiracy theory. For that reason, I posted it here.

I did not seek to use the article to argue for the legitimacy of re-establishing Israel. I believe that matter stands on its own merits including but not limited to the shared historical legitimacy in the region for both the Arab and Jewish peoples, equal right of self-determination between the region's two peoples, legality (Balfour Declaration, League of Nations Mandate, UNSCOP, legality of Jewish immigration during the closing years of Ottoman rule and during much of the British mandate, no sovereign Palestine, etc.), among other factors.
 
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bub

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Bub,

That Jewish historical legitimacy in the region can be demonstrated without using scientific evidence e.g., archaeological evidence, etc., is beyond question. However, from time to time, two lines of conspiracy theory had popped up in this forum:

1) Jewish people are descended from the Khazars.
2) The Jewish immigrants who came to the Near East were Europeans not a distinct people and UNSCOP erred in defining the Jewish people as a people on an equal footing with the region's Arab population.

The latest scientific findings specifically address those lines of conspiracy theory. For that reason, I posted it here.

I did not seek to use the article to argue for the legitimacy of re-establishing Israel. I believe that matter stands on its own merits including but not limited to the shared historical legitimacy in the region for both the Arab and Jewish peoples, equal right of self-determination between the region's two peoples, legality (Balfour Declaration, League of Nations Mandate, UNSCOP, legality of Jewish immigration during the closing years of Ottoman rule and during much of the British mandate, no sovereign Palestine, etc.), among other factors.
And I totally agree with this.

I was just saying that DNA itself did not give any special right/obligation to anyone. That would sound like a racial policy from the darkest times of the European history.
 

donsutherland1

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I was just saying that DNA itself did not give any special right/obligation to anyone. That would sound like a racial policy from the darkest times of the European history.
I agree with you on that.
 
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