The dilemma of rebuilding Gaza without rearming Hamas

[Fledermaus]

On his recent visit to Jerusalem and the West Bank, the UK's Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, told me it was "crucially important" to ensure funds went to "the Palestinian people, to alleviate their plight, and do not drift into the pockets of Hamas".

The dilemma of rebuilding Gaza without rearming Hamas

Donors are grappling with the challenge of helping Gaza without benefitting its militant rulers.

www.bbc.com

And there is the rub... For years Hamas has siphoned off food, money, humanitarian supplies and building supplies to support it's warring against the civilians of Israel (and the occasional and rare attack on the IDF) which in turn turns Gaza into a target.

 

[NatMorton]

IMO, not a dime of US aid to any part of Palestine under Hamas control or even Hamas influence. Otherwise one might just as well send them bullets and rockets and cut out the middleman.

 

[Napoleon]

The Settler population living illegally in East Jerusalem and the West Bank is +750,000 people. (That area is roughly the size of Delaware, which conveniently has a similarly-size population of about 990,000.)

Any "two-state solution" would require removing all of those Israeli Settlers back into the internationally agreed-upon borders of Israel. (An area roughly the size of New Jersey, for perspective, which happens to border Delaware.)

So, a "two-state solution" in 2021 is (very) roughly akin to an eventual political scenario where the *entire* population of Delaware is removed into neighboring New Jersey.

Beyond the history, rhetoric, optics, current events, or hell even international law... this is a virtually insurmountable physics problem. All rebuilding Gaza would require is for Israel to stop blowing it up everytime somebody farts in the wrong direction and put an end to its vicious collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Settler population living illegally in East Jerusalem and the West Bank is +750,000 people. (That area is roughly the size of Delaware, which conveniently has a similarly-size population of about 990,000.)

Any "two-state solution" would require removing all of those Israeli Settlers back into the internationally agreed-upon borders of Israel. (An area roughly the size of New Jersey, for perspective, which happens to border Delaware.)

So, a "two-state solution" in 2021 is (very) roughly akin to an eventual political scenario where the *entire* population of Delaware is removed into neighboring New Jersey.

Beyond the history, rhetoric, optics, current events, or hell even international law... this is a virtually insurmountable physics problem. All rebuilding Gaza would require is for Israel to stop blowing it up everytime somebody farts in the wrong direction and put an end to its vicious collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

The rambling preface to the bolded is ignored because it is irrelevant to this discussion.

As to the bolded.

Hundreds of rockets and morters launched from Gaza "everytime somebody farts in the wrong direction" is what you meant to say...

Right?

Hamas intentionally targets civilians.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way why doesn't Hamas rebuild instead of rearming?

 

[Napoleon]

The rambling preface to the bolded is ignored because it is irrelevant to this discussion.

As to the bolded.

Hundreds of rockets and morters launched from Gaza "everytime somebody farts in the wrong direction" is what you meant to say...

Right?

Hamas intentionally targets civilians.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way why doesn't Hamas rebuild instead of rearming?

Would those rockets have been fired if Israel hadn’t violently invaded one of holiest sites in Islam and injured 500 people in the process because someone threw a rock? No. Israel is gratuitously intentional in its targeted murder of Palestinian civilians and endless provocation. The fact that it invades and annexes Palestinian land with settlers is not irrelevant to that fact.

 

[Fledermaus]

Would those rockets have been fired if Israel hadn’t violently invaded one of holiest sites in Islam and injured 500 people in the process because someone threw a rock?

Over the years tens of thousands of mortars, rockets, incendiary balloons and kites have been directed at civilians and civilian property.

No. Israel is gratuitously intentional in its targeted murder of Palestinian civilians and endless provocation. The fact that it invades and annexes Palestinian land with settlers is not irrelevant to that fact.

The fact we are talking about Gaza kinda makes your "invades and annexes Palestinian land" a bit silly.

Focus.

Gaza.

 

[oneworld2]

Over the years tens of thousands of mortars, rockets, incendiary balloons and kites have been directed at civilians and civilian property.



The fact we are talking about Gaza kinda makes your "invades and annexes Palestinian land" a bit silly.

Focus.

Gaza.

" Over the years " millions of live rounds, hundreds of thousands of tank shells, a whole array of hitech weapons have been " directed" at Palestinian civilians and/or civilian property and the death toll endorses that Israeli state terrorism is way more destructive than Palestinian group terrorism .

That Israel invades Palestinian territory in Gaza isn't even contentious. Your commentary is not built on anything akin to actual knowledge

 

[Fledermaus]

" Over the years " millions of live rounds, hundreds of thousands of tank shells, a whole array of hitech weapons have been " directed" at Palestinian civilians and/or civilian property and the death toll endorses that Israeli state terrorism is way more destructive than Palestinian group terrorism .

That Israel invades Palestinian territory in Gaza isn't even contentious. Your commentary is not built on anything akin to actual knowledge

The IDF stikes at terrorists inside Gaza.

Now, to rebuilding.....

For years Hamas has siphoned off food, money, humanitarian supplies and building supplies to support it's warring against the civilians of Israel (and the occasional and rare attack on the IDF) which in turn turns Gaza into a target.

Why doesn't Hamas invest in Gaza and the Palestinians?

Why not rebuild houses and roads?

Why not stop using irrigation piping for rockets and use in for irrigation?

Why not construct shelters for Palestinians?

Why not employ Palestinians in the rebuilding process?

 

[oneworld2]

The IDF stikes at terrorists inside Gaza.

And the Palestinian factions strike against IDF terrorists inside Israel with indiscriminate weapons that constitute war crimes

Now, to rebuilding.....

For years Hamas has siphoned off food, money, humanitarian supplies and building supplies to support it's warring against the civilians of Israel (and the occasional and rare attack on the IDF) which in turn turns Gaza into a target.

Why doesn't Hamas invest in Gaza and the Palestinians?

Why not rebuild houses and roads?

Why not stop using irrigation piping for rockets and use in for irrigation?

Why not construct shelters for Palestinians?

Why not employ Palestinians in the rebuilding process?

Obviously you only know what you have been conditioned to know about Hamas.

The reason Hamas won the majority of seats in the last truly national elections was because of the money, time and effort spent on improving the lives of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. There are works by Khaled Hroub, Avraham Sela and others that show a much more complete picture of the movement/organisation known as Hamas than the very predictable western propaganda opinion pieces in the MSM, not that you wuld ever read anything of the sort.

In short , you haven't a clue about what Hamas does wrt Palestinian life and/or social services that might explain why they were and probably still are, enjoying more support than the PA.

read and weep

In the 1990s, some 85% of its budget was allocated to the provision of social services.[59] Hamas has been called perhaps the most significant social services actor in Palestine. By 2000, Hamas or its affiliated charities ran roughly 40% of the social institutions in the West Bank and Gaza and, with other Islamic charities, by 2005, was supporting 120,000 individuals with monthly financial support in Gaza.[60] Part of the appeal of these institutions is that they fill a vacuum in the administration by the PLO of the Palestinian territories, which had failed to cater to the demand for jobs and broad social services, and is widely viewed as corrupt.[61] As late as 2005, the budget of Hamas, drawing on global charity contributions, was mostly tied up in covering running expenses for its social programmes, which extended from the supply of housing, food and water for the needy to more general functions like financial aid, medical assistance, educational development and religious instruction. A certain accounting flexibility allowed these funds to cover both charitable causes and military operations, permitting transfer from one to the other.[62]

Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NatMorton]

And the Palestinian factions strike against IDF terrorists inside Israel with indiscriminate weapons that constitute war crimes




Obviously you only know what you have been conditioned to know about Hamas.

The reason Hamas won the majority of seats in the last truly national elections was because of the money, time and effort spent on improving the lives of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. There are works by Khaled Hroub, Avraham Sela and others that show a much more complete picture of the movement/organisation known as Hamas than the very predictable western propaganda opinion pieces in the MSM, not that you wuld ever read anything of the sort.

In short , you haven't a clue about what Hamas does wrt Palestinian life and/or social services that might explain why they were and probably still are, enjoying more support than the PA.

read and weep

Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you really be that obtuse? Building mosques, building medical clinics, and providing aid to the poor is exactly how groups like al Qaeda gained grassroots support. Those actions didn't make AQ any less of a terrorist organization than Hamas's PR does.

In Hamas we are discussing an organization whose founding charter literally calls on the region's rocks and trees to help kills Jews. Hamas is radical. Hamas is destructive. Hamas needs to be repudiated and then eradicated before any aid we fund goes Palestine's way.

 

[oneworld2]

Can you really be that obtuse? Building mosques, building medical clinics, and providing aid to the poor is exactly how groups like al Qaeda gained grassroots support. Those actions didn't make AQ any less of a terrorist organization than Hamas's PR does.

In Hamas we are discussing an organization whose founding charter literally calls on the region's rocks and trees to help kills Jews. Hamas is radical. Hamas is destructive. Hamas needs to be repudiated and then eradicated before any aid we fund goes Palestine's way.

AS I have said before and will say again, they view our actions as terrorism and not without merit. So you can claim it only applies to the " other" if it serves to confirm your biases but some of us prefer a more objective approach.

The poster asked why Hamas didn't help the Palestinians because they were ignorant that they do. Now you can cry about what that help is for if you like but there is no bigger recruiting officers for Palestinian combatants/terrorists than the ongoing abuses and murderous actions of western supported Israeli state terrorism being waged against them. And, from what I recall ,you fully support that, so who are you to try to preach about the recruiting of future Muslim terrorists/combatants by anyone ?

 

[NatMorton]

they view our actions as terrorism and not without merit.

Their claim is without merit. They are the terrorists. No us, and not Israel.

 

[Fledermaus]

And the Palestinian factions strike against IDF terrorists inside Israel with indiscriminate weapons that constitute war crimes

IDF terrorists in Sderot?

Please lie again.

Hamas targets civilians almost exclusively.

Obviously you only know what you have been conditioned to know about Hamas.

The reason Hamas won the majority of seats in the last truly national elections was because of the money, time and effort spent on improving the lives of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. There are works by Khaled Hroub, Avraham Sela and others that show a much more complete picture of the movement/organisation known as Hamas than the very predictable western propaganda opinion pieces in the MSM, not that you wuld ever read anything of the sort.

In short , you haven't a clue about what Hamas does wrt Palestinian life and/or social services that might explain why they were and probably still are, enjoying more support than the PA.

read and weep

Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When did they win those seats?

Hmmmmmmm?

Wasn't that before Hamas turned Gaza into a armed camp from which they have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks targeting the Israeli citizens?

Wasn't that before Operation Cast Lead and other strikes?

Wasn't that before they wasted huge sums of money on Iranian rockets and other military weapons?

Wasn't that before they wasted all those building materials on abortive terror tunnels?

Why yes.... Yes it was.

Time machine doesn't work.

I am not asking what Hamas did then.

I am asking why it doesn't rebuild NOW.

 

[oneworld2]

Their claim is without merit. They are the terrorists. No us, and not Israel.

No, their claim is supported by a whole raft of backing evidence but you have been indoctrinated into believing that only other people engage in terrorism, your state and its allies do not. That's what you have been spoon fed for as long as your can remember and you have not the capacity/independence of thought to step back and question it

 

[oneworld2]

IDF terrorists in Sderot?

Please lie again.

Hamas targets civilians almost exclusively.

The IDF are the state terrorists operating for the state of Israel and Sderot is filled with them ,like every other Israeli city is. Please fail again

When did they win those seats?

Hmmmmmmm?

Wasn't that before Hamas turned Gaza into a armed camp from which they have launched tens of thousands of rocket and mortar attacks targeting the Israeli citizens?

Wasn't that before Operation Cast Lead and other strikes?

Wasn't that before they wasted huge sums of money on Iranian rockets and other military weapons?

Wasn't that before they wasted all those building materials on abortive terror tunnels?

Why yes.... Yes it was.

Time machine doesn't work.

I am not asking what Hamas did then.

I am asking why it doesn't rebuild NOW.

You asked what Hamas does for the people of Palestine because you only possess the one view and don't really know what they did/do outside of that. You are ignorant about the Palestinians and the Palestinian factions vying for control/representation. They still run many social programmes and employ many Palestinians. You tried to say they do nothing but terrorism and got found out being ignorant about everything.

You know next to nothing about Palestinians and it shows every time you post stuff about them.

 

[Fledermaus]

The IDF are the state terrorists operating for the state of Israel and Sderot is filled with them ,like every other Israeli city is. Please fail again


You asked what Hamas does for the people of Palestine because you only possess the one view and don't really know what they did/do outside of that. You are ignorant about the Palestinians and the Palestinian factions vying for control/representation. They still run many social programmes and employ many Palestinians. You tried to say they do nothing but terrorism and got found out being ignorant about everything.

You know next to nothing about Palestinians and it shows every time you post stuff about them.

Innocent Israeli citizens are terrorists? That is what fills Sderot and other cities.

You and Hamas are in agreement. Just like the TV show.

Hamas internationally targets civilians.

Oh, and your references were from before Hamas took over.

We see the results of Hamas' rebuilding...