The dilemma of Arabs and Muslims immigrants in Europe

[stan1990]

I wrote a few threads in this forum about politics and religion. In the future, I will write more threads about a variety of subjects like the environment, economy and so on. Members who read my writings need to understand that I don't work as a full-time writer the same as many participants and commentators. For this reason, replying to every question or giving extended details of my views sometimes can be out of my limit. Nobody should describe freedom of speech and expressing an opinion as bigotry. However, ignoring some historical facts and events can influence in a negative way person views and neutrality. I describe myself as a zealot defender of secularism. Defending the history, not religion whatever that is possible is the purpose of my writings.

The problem of Muslims and Arabs, in general, is their dual views towards many obstacles home or abroad. One of these obstacles is the code of conduct they need to follow in their new country, the infidel west as they describe it. Following the Islamic code of conduct or the western lifestyle is a concern for many Muslims. They receive an overdose of a cultural shock in their first few weeks. While some of them pass the test, others don't make it. In general, the integration of new immigrants is a concern for many European governments. Governments agencies in the U.S, Germany, France, Australia and many others allocated a significant amount of resource for integration efforts, But they failed miserably. The reasons for this failure can be many, below is some of them.

First of all, many Arabs and Muslims are not ready to accept Western values and lifestyle. They struggle with that dilemma, criticizing Western culture and values while standing in line for hours by the embassies doors waiting for visa approval. They voted for religion at home and chose to live in secular West. Second, they cling to their traditions in a way create great difficulty for the integration efforts. Ideas such as girls practicing sports can lose their virginity is very common among new immigrants. Arranged marriages and polygamy are other examples. Finally, religion attached to their daily lives and practices in a way that keeps them isolated from their new environment and community. They will be looking for Mosques, Islamic schools and centers before asking questions such as where the closest public library or sports center located?

On the whole, many Arabs and Muslims achieve success and settle in their new country. Muslims and Arabs aren't required to forget the place of their birth, drink Scottish Whisky to prove that they aren't terrorist or stop practicing their faith, the life in the West is not about that at all. The life in the West is about discipline, obey the law, respect your neighbors, to be productive and to make existence there is meaningful.

End

 

[Mycroft]

I wrote a few threads in this forum about politics and religion. In the future, I will write more threads about a variety of subjects like the environment, economy and so on. Members who read my writings need to understand that I don't work as a full-time writer the same as many participants and commentators. For this reason, replying to every question or giving extended details of my views sometimes can be out of my limit. Nobody should describe freedom of speech and expressing an opinion as bigotry. However, ignoring some historical facts and events can influence in a negative way person views and neutrality. I describe myself as a zealot defender of secularism. Defending the history, not religion whatever that is possible is the purpose of my writings.

The problem of Muslims and Arabs, in general, is their dual views towards many obstacles home or abroad. One of these obstacles is the code of conduct they need to follow in their new country, the infidel west as they describe it. Following the Islamic code of conduct or the western lifestyle is a concern for many Muslims. They receive an overdose of a cultural shock in their first few weeks. While some of them pass the test, others don't make it. In general, the integration of new immigrants is a concern for many European governments. Governments agencies in the U.S, Germany, France, Australia and many others allocated a significant amount of resource for integration efforts, But they failed miserably. The reasons for this failure can be many, below is some of them.

First of all, many Arabs and Muslims are not ready to accept Western values and lifestyle. They struggle with that dilemma, criticizing Western culture and values while standing in line for hours by the embassies doors waiting for visa approval. They voted for religion at home and chose to live in secular West. Second, they cling to their traditions in a way create great difficulty for the integration efforts. Ideas such as girls practicing sports can lose their virginity is very common among new immigrants. Arranged marriages and polygamy are other examples. Finally, religion attached to their daily lives and practices in a way that keeps them isolated from their new environment and community. They will be looking for Mosques, Islamic schools and centers before asking questions such as where the closest public library or sports center located?

On the whole, many Arabs and Muslims achieve success and settle in their new country. Muslims and Arabs aren't required to forget the place of their birth, drink Scottish Whisky to prove that they aren't terrorist or stop practicing their faith, the life in the West is not about that at all. The life in the West is about discipline, obey the law, respect your neighbors, to be productive and to make existence there is meaningful.

End

Probably the best thing someone can do for Middle East person contemplating moving to the West is to point out the things they'll find...BEFORE...they make the move. The second best thing someone can do for a Middle East person who HAS MADE the move and who is having a hard time acclimating is to suggest they move back.

The Middle East person probably already knows that life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. That especially applies when making drastic changes in the culture you decide to live in.

One thing you didn't mention that will also have a big effect on a Muslim or Arab family who moves to the West: The children in the family will more easily acclimate to the new culture. This will cause no end to interfamilial strife. The "old school" parents against the more "free-thinking" children.

 

[stan1990]

Probably the best thing someone can do for Middle East person contemplating moving to the West is to point out the things they'll find...BEFORE...they make the move. The second best thing someone can do for a Middle East person who HAS MADE the move and who is having a hard time acclimating is to suggest they move back.

The Middle East person probably already knows that life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. That especially applies when making drastic changes in the culture you decide to live in.

One thing you didn't mention that will also have a big effect on a Muslim or Arab family who moves to the West: The children in the family will more easily acclimate to the new culture. This will cause no end to interfamilial strife. The "old school" parents against the more "free-thinking" children.

First of all, thanks for your comment. I agree with what you said, education for new immigrants to the West should be mandatory, not optional. But I have a comment on your view about the younger Arabs and Muslims generations in the West. It's not always true that the new generation of immigrants children will be more acclimative. Civil unrest caused by this younger generation feeling marginalized by government policies in countries like France. In my opinion, more efforts needed by the European government to help in the integration of newcomers, so they don't feel alienated and inherit this feeling to their children and grandchildren.

 

[Mycroft]

First of all, thanks for your comment. I agree with what you said, education for new immigrants to the West should be mandatory, not optional. But I have a comment on your view about the younger Arabs and Muslims generations in the West. It's not always true that the new generation of immigrants children will be more acclimative. Civil unrest caused by this younger generation feeling marginalized by government policies in countries like France. In my opinion, more efforts needed by the European government to help in the integration of newcomers, so they don't feel alienated and inherit this feeling to their children and grandchildren.

I would prefer this "education" happen before taking them into my country.

 

[Rexedgar]

I would prefer this "education" happen before taking them into my country.

Where do want to situate the camps?

 

[stan1990]

I would prefer this "education" happen before taking them into my country.

The problem isn't only restricted in the education of the new immigrants before they are allowed in their new country in Europe or whatever other western countries. However, I agree with you. Embassies should take this task seriously, but they don't bother. Europe needs to take only immigrants with a certain way of thinking and certain psychology if you know what I mean. What happens now is that European countries are accepting a psychopathy, lunatic lazy welfare crowds.

 

[stan1990]

Where do want to situate the camps?

Embassies abroad can take care of that task

 

[PeteEU]

Boy never have I seen a more uninformed thread on these boards...

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

 

[holbritter]

Boy never have I seen a more uninformed thread on these boards...

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

By all means, bless us with your knowledge and wisdom.

 

[holbritter]

Probably the best thing someone can do for Middle East person contemplating moving to the West is to point out the things they'll find...BEFORE...they make the move. The second best thing someone can do for a Middle East person who HAS MADE the move and who is having a hard time acclimating is to suggest they move back.

The Middle East person probably already knows that life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. That especially applies when making drastic changes in the culture you decide to live in.

One thing you didn't mention that will also have a big effect on a Muslim or Arab family who moves to the West: The children in the family will more easily acclimate to the new culture. This will cause no end to interfamilial strife. The "old school" parents against the more "free-thinking" children.

That happens/happened with many cultures, so I don't think it's a problem with just middle eastern cultures. New generations will usually be more 'free thinking', although I don't think that term is entirely accurate. It's more that children of one generation are affected by the world they grow up in (in general) i.e, new technology. Every generation does the same to some extent in a country such as the U.S. as it is always changing, and more rapidly than other countries that hold on to tradition of previous generations much longer.

 

[Mycroft]

That happens/happened with many cultures, so I don't think it's a problem with just middle eastern cultures. New generations will usually be more 'free thinking', although I don't think that term is entirely accurate. It's more that children of one generation are affected by the world they grow up in (in general) i.e, new technology. Every generation does the same to some extent in a country such as the U.S. as it is always changing, and more rapidly than other countries that hold on to tradition of previous generations much longer.

Good point and I agree. This same dynamic affects all cultures that are markedly different.

In this thread, however, we are talking about Arabs and Muslims who immigrate to Europe.

 

[yankintx]

I wrote a few threads in this forum about politics and religion. In the future, I will write more threads about a variety of subjects like the environment, economy and so on. Members who read my writings need to understand that I don't work as a full-time writer the same as many participants and commentators. For this reason, replying to every question or giving extended details of my views sometimes can be out of my limit. Nobody should describe freedom of speech and expressing an opinion as bigotry. However, ignoring some historical facts and events can influence in a negative way person views and neutrality. I describe myself as a zealot defender of secularism. Defending the history, not religion whatever that is possible is the purpose of my writings.

The problem of Muslims and Arabs, in general, is their dual views towards many obstacles home or abroad. One of these obstacles is the code of conduct they need to follow in their new country, the infidel west as they describe it. Following the Islamic code of conduct or the western lifestyle is a concern for many Muslims. They receive an overdose of a cultural shock in their first few weeks. While some of them pass the test, others don't make it. In general, the integration of new immigrants is a concern for many European governments. Governments agencies in the U.S, Germany, France, Australia and many others allocated a significant amount of resource for integration efforts, But they failed miserably. The reasons for this failure can be many, below is some of them.

First of all, many Arabs and Muslims are not ready to accept Western values and lifestyle. They struggle with that dilemma, criticizing Western culture and values while standing in line for hours by the embassies doors waiting for visa approval. They voted for religion at home and chose to live in secular West. Second, they cling to their traditions in a way create great difficulty for the integration efforts. Ideas such as girls practicing sports can lose their virginity is very common among new immigrants. Arranged marriages and polygamy are other examples. Finally, religion attached to their daily lives and practices in a way that keeps them isolated from their new environment and community. They will be looking for Mosques, Islamic schools and centers before asking questions such as where the closest public library or sports center located?

On the whole, many Arabs and Muslims achieve success and settle in their new country. Muslims and Arabs aren't required to forget the place of their birth, drink Scottish Whisky to prove that they aren't terrorist or stop practicing their faith, the life in the West is not about that at all. The life in the West is about discipline, obey the law, respect your neighbors, to be productive and to make existence there is meaningful.

End

I am an expat living in Saudi. Have you ever lived in the Middle East ? You are so off, save us all your uninformed opinion, you dont know ****.

 

[Sweden]

Probably the best thing someone can do for Middle East person contemplating moving to the West is to point out the things they'll find...BEFORE...they make the move. The second best thing someone can do for a Middle East person who HAS MADE the move and who is having a hard time acclimating is to suggest they move back.

The Middle East person probably already knows that life is nothing but a series of trade-offs. That especially applies when making drastic changes in the culture you decide to live in.

One thing you didn't mention that will also have a big effect on a Muslim or Arab family who moves to the West: The children in the family will more easily acclimate to the new culture. This will cause no end to interfamilial strife. The "old school" parents against the more "free-thinking" children.

It was long assumed that second generation Muslim migrants would identify with the Western country in which they were born and educated. It has not worke out that way way. Survey of Muslims in the UK have shown that second and even third generations identify with a more radical Islam than did their parents. Here in Sweden schools are having a hard time with Muslim pupils who openly - and sometimes violently - display their contempt for Swedes and all aspects of Swedish culture.

 

[Sweden]

I am an expat living in Saudi. Have you ever lived in the Middle East ? You are so off, save us all your uninformed opinion, you dont know ****.

Tell us about your view of Islam from your Saudi vantage point.

 

[Evilroddy]

I wrote a few threads in this forum about politics and religion. In the future, I will write more threads about a variety of subjects like the environment, economy and so on. Members who read my writings need to understand that I don't work as a full-time writer the same as many participants and commentators. For this reason, replying to every question or giving extended details of my views sometimes can be out of my limit. Nobody should describe freedom of speech and expressing an opinion as bigotry. However, ignoring some historical facts and events can influence in a negative way person views and neutrality. I describe myself as a zealot defender of secularism. Defending the history, not religion whatever that is possible is the purpose of my writings.

(Edited for word count.)

First of all, many Arabs and Muslims are not ready to accept Western values and lifestyle. They struggle with that dilemma, criticizing Western culture and values while standing in line for hours by the embassies doors waiting for visa approval. They voted for religion at home and chose to live in secular West. Second, they cling to their traditions in a way create great difficulty for the integration efforts. Ideas such as girls practicing sports can lose their virginity is very common among new immigrants. Arranged marriages and polygamy are other examples. Finally, religion attached to their daily lives and practices in a way that keeps them isolated from their new environment and community. They will be looking for Mosques, Islamic schools and centers before asking questions such as where the closest public library or sports center located?

On the whole, many Arabs and Muslims achieve success and settle in their new country. Muslims and Arabs aren't required to forget the place of their birth, drink Scottish Whisky to prove that they aren't terrorist or stop practicing their faith, the life in the West is not about that at all. The life in the West is about discipline, obey the law, respect your neighbors, to be productive and to make existence there is meaningful.

End

Did Western cultures respect the values and social priorities of the Europeans they joined when they moved into Europe? Did invading Bronze Age Celts respect the values and culture of the Neolithic Europeans they conquered? Did later Celtic arrivals respect the earlier established Celts! Did the Greeks from Anatolia respect the culture and values of the people of what today is called Greece when they arrived in Europe proper? Did Romans respect the values and cultures of the Europeans they conquered and assimilated? Did Germans respect the values and the culture of the Western Roman Empire they attacked and destroyed? Did Slavs and later Magyars respect the values and cultures of the Europeans they displaced or assimilated? How about the Norsemen, the Tartars, the Turks, the Swedes, the Spanish, the French or the British? Nope. None of these cultures respected the values and the cultures of their predecessors in the cultural carrousel that is European civilisation. So why should Arabs and non-Arab Muslims accept the values and culture of the West simply because they are moving there?

The notion that there is a fixed Western culture is a fallacy. It is the result of being a Shad-fly perched on the bow of a tree. The life span of the Shad-fly is so short that from the fly's perspective the tree is permanent and unchanging. But trees grow, change and die when seen from a longer-term perspective. Likewise cultures and values are not permanent but are in a constant state of dynamic flux, ever mutating and evolving as new ideas and new circumstances change the culture or values either incrementally or drastically. Thus the Western Culture and Western values are not a snap shot of a moment fixed in time but are an ever developing movie where the actors are constantly adjusting that culture and those values.

Therefore the arrival of Arab Muslims and non-Arab Muslims to Europe or America is just the latest flux in the dynamic equilibrium that is Western values and culture and the latest stutter in the cultural conversation which happens between the new and the old in any civilisation.

I challenge any poster here to make a substantial list of Western values that is durable enough to span a whole century or two. Western culture and values have changed, are changing and will change further still, as we do not live in a steady-state culture or a monolithic value system at all.

So climb aboard the cultural carrousel and enjoy the ups and downs of the ponies or swans as we race around the roundabout in the ever-changing tug-of-war between new and old. Cultures and values change, so get used to it. You don't have the luxury of being a Shad-fly on the bow of a tree.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[stan1990]

Tell us about your view of Islam from your Saudi vantage point.

Good point
Thanks

 

[stan1990]

Did Western cultures respect the values and social priorities of the Europeans they joined when they moved into Europe? Did invading Bronze Age Celts respect the values and culture of the Neolithic Europeans they conquered? Did later Celtic arrivals respect the earlier established Celts! Did the Greeks from Anatolia respect the culture and values of the people of what today is called Greece when they arrived in Europe proper? Did Romans respect the values and cultures of the Europeans they conquered and assimilated? Did Germans respect the values and the culture of the Western Roman Empire they attacked and destroyed? Did Slavs and later Magyars respect the values and cultures of the Europeans they displaced or assimilated? How about the Norsemen, the Tartars, the Turks, the Swedes, the Spanish, the French or the British? Nope. None of these cultures respected the values and the cultures of their predecessors in the cultural carrousel that is European civilisation. So why should Arabs and non-Arab Muslims accept the values and culture of the West simply because they are moving there?

The notion that there is a fixed Western culture is a fallacy. It is the result of being a Shad-fly perched on the bow of a tree. The life span of the Shad-fly is so short that from the fly's perspective the tree is permanent and unchanging. But trees grow, change and die when seen from a longer-term perspective. Likewise cultures and values are not permanent but are in a constant state of dynamic flux, ever mutating and evolving as new ideas and new circumstances change the culture or values either incrementally or drastically. Thus the Western Culture and Western values are not a snap shot of a moment fixed in time but are an ever developing movie where the actors are constantly adjusting that culture and those values.

Therefore the arrival of Arab Muslims and non-Arab Muslims to Europe or America is just the latest flux in the dynamic equilibrium that is Western values and culture and the latest stutter in the cultural conversation which happens between the new and the old in any civilisation.

I challenge any poster here to make a substantial list of Western values that is durable enough to span a whole century or two. Western culture and values have changed, are changing and will change further still, as we do not live in a steady-state culture or a monolithic value system at all.

So climb aboard the cultural carrousel and enjoy the ups and downs of the ponies or swans as we race around the roundabout in the ever-changing tug-of-war between new and old. Cultures and values change, so get used to it. You don't have the luxury of being a Shad-fly on the bow of a tree.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Thanks for your comment.
I don't believe in fixed European culture. But I do agree with you to a certain degree.
Sometimes, governments policies in Europe act in the opposite of their integration efforts. It helps to alienate instead of integrating the newcomers. But I notice that many problems exist with Muslims than Christian Arabs. Muslims immigrate to Europe with a dream to turn it into an Islamic continent. To believe in the idea of Islam prevail over European culture is prescription for trouble. Europe is a great place to live with many opportunities for new immigrants especially educational ones. They should take advantage of it, and teach their kids how to love their new home. Arabs and Muslims, in general, don't adapt. and they try to change the status quo. This will create turmoils added to cultural sensitivities, Europe is setting on a powder keg waiting to explode at any moment.

 

[stan1990]

It was long assumed that second generation Muslim migrants would identify with the Western country in which they were born and educated. It has not worke out that way way. Survey of Muslims in the UK have shown that second and even third generations identify with a more radical Islam than did their parents. Here in Sweden schools are having a hard time with Muslim pupils who openly - and sometimes violently - display their contempt for Swedes and all aspects of Swedish culture.

I won't write it any better than you. Good comment
The question is why do think this happen?

 

[stan1990]

Boy never have I seen a more uninformed thread on these boards...

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk

What do you mean? I missed your point? can you provide more details?

 

[Sweden]

I won't write it any better than you. Good comment
The question is why do think this happen?[/QI

I think you have go it right in your comment at #17. All too many Muslim imigrants despise European secular culture. They see any move to identify with the mores and valuesof their new home as a betrayal of Islam.

Here the pretense that all the "new Swedes" will soon be just like real Swedes has worn thin. Our establishment still utters this lie but with much less conviction.

 

[stan1990]

I won't write it any better than you. Good comment
The question is why do think this happen?[/QI

I think you have go it right in your comment at #17. All too many Muslim imigrants despise European secular culture. They see any move to identify with the mores and valuesof their new home as a betrayal of Islam.

Here the pretense that all the "new Swedes" will soon be just like real Swedes has worn thin. Our establishment still utters this lie but with much less conviction.

Thanks for your participation