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The Debt Ceiling

Unfortunately for America (and the rest of the world), there are far too many ignorant Americans that believe that issue of raising the debt ceiling is a leverage point in controlling spending. As you well pointed out, this is about paying for the bills we have already incurred, it has nothing to do with spending. Yet, this garbage sells in the fact-free right wing media, so the wack-a-doo, make a show, right wing nuts that now control the Republican party think this plays well to the their voters. The Republican caucus, right now, is controlled by wing-nuts (crazy people). You don't want crazy people making decisions... but that is what is in front of us.

What is scary is they have no idea of the dire consequences of defaulting on our debt. They think they will control spending, but if they screw with this, they will get the opposite result .... at least a much greater expenditure on interest and may a ton of expenditure of stimulus to right the wrong of the recession/depression they create.

I pray these people don't go full stupid.
what is crazy is the fact we got here and both sides are guilty!
 
Well, it’s going to happen eventually anyway. The debt is a runaway train. America can either take the lumps it has coming so far or add to its pain in the future.
I have been hearing of this pain since Reagan


Yet it never comes
 
Well, it’s going to happen eventually anyway. The debt is a runaway train. America can either take the lumps it has coming so far or add to its pain in the future.
The debt has been a "runaway train" since after WWII. We never paid the WWII debt down either. You are being a chicken little.
 
The debt has been a "runaway train" since after WWII.

Actually, the debt was around 100% or more of the GDP in 1946, but then it came down during the economic expansion of the late 1940s and into the 1950s.

We never paid the WWII debt down either. You are being a chicken little.

But we did pay it down, too. We paid it down until the 1980s when Reagan and Congressional Democrats ignored the debt for a while, but then Clinton paid it down again.

Here's why the debt is out of control in 2023 (as I think the chart makes perfectly clear):

- We had two wars that lasted the better part of 10-20 years.
- We not only had tax cuts during the Bush years but even tax rebates
- We had the worst economic crisis in 80 years beginning in the final year of Bush's term
- We spent vast sums of money to get out of the crisis but we didn't raise enough taxes to cover the spending
- Trump and the GOP gave the rich a tax break with no substantive decrease in spending
- COVID relief in the trillions but with no tax increases

I was wrong when I posted we hadn't had tax increases since the 1990s - Obama got one passed at the end of his first term, I believe. But we've had two waves of massive emergency spending in the last 15 years and they were both woefully underfunded. I was also incorrect when I suggested that Democrats could have somehow used their majority to rescind the debt limit, as it's not a rule but the result of several acts. The difference now, and the reason there's a potential crisis, is that previous congressional majorities and minorities understood it's not a good idea to weaponize the US' full faith and credit.

Democrats are not blameless, and I agree that some hard and unpopular spending cuts will probably have to be made, but it's just richly ironic to see Republicans talking about their debt fears. Republicans object to taxes not spending, and that is the single biggest reason we're here.

us-debt-held-by-public-1790-2021-labels.jpg
 
Actually, the debt was around 100% or more of the GDP in 1946, but then it came down during the economic expansion of the late 1940s and into the 1950s.



But we did pay it down, too. We paid it down until the 1980s when Reagan and Congressional Democrats ignored the debt for a while, but then Clinton paid it down again.

Here's why the debt is out of control in 2023 (as I think the chart makes perfectly clear):

- We had two wars that lasted the better part of 10-20 years.
- We not only had tax cuts during the Bush years but even tax rebates
- We had the worst economic crisis in 80 years beginning in the final year of Bush's term
- We spent vast sums of money to get out of the crisis but we didn't raise enough taxes to cover the spending
- Trump and the GOP gave the rich a tax break with no substantive decrease in spending
- COVID relief in the trillions but with no tax increases

I was wrong when I posted we hadn't had tax increases since the 1990s - Obama got one passed at the end of his first term, I believe. But we've had two waves of massive emergency spending in the last 15 years and they were both woefully underfunded. I was also incorrect when I suggested that Democrats could have somehow used their majority to rescind the debt limit, as it's not a rule but the result of several acts. The difference now, and the reason there's a potential crisis, is that previous congressional majorities and minorities understood it's not a good idea to weaponize the US' full faith and credit.

Democrats are not blameless, and I agree that some hard and unpopular spending cuts will probably have to be made, but it's just richly ironic to see Republicans talking about their debt fears. Republicans object to taxes not spending, and that is the single biggest reason we're here.

View attachment 67432230
What I said is that we never paid the debt from WWII. Dropping the % of GDP of the debt by increasing GDP is not paying it off. The last time we actually paid off the national debt was in 1835.

https://www.marketplace.org/2021/12/02/when-was-the-last-time-we-paid-down-the-national-debt/
 
The debt ceiling (or limit) is nothing more than a political toy to be deployed at will when someone wants to make this an issue.

Abolish it.

Accomplishes absolutely nothing. Legislation, no matter the means, determines intentions to spend and tax a long way back. Whenever we hit the next debt limit, it is an guesstimate as to when it will happen assuming the subject ever comes with when Congress passes various intentions to influence spending and taxation.

The only time this becomes an issue is when someone needs it to be simply because they do not control enough of Congress and/or the White House.
 
With the House in a mess there's been lots of talk about what will happen when it comes time to raise the debt ceiling. I'm sure everyone on this forum knows exactly what the debt ceiling is and how it works. But for my own edification I've found some facts on it.


The debt ceiling, legally known as the debt limit, is the total amount of money that the U.S. government is authorized to borrow to pay existing obligations, such as Social Security and Medicare benefits, military salaries, interest on the national debt, tax refunds, and disbursements for other programs.

The debt limit applies to federal debt held by the public, namely, securities held by investors outside the federal government, and to federal debt held by the government’s own accounts. The debt limit does not create new spending commitments but allows the government to finance existing obligations already established by Congress.



We wouldn't have this problem if democrats knew how to plan a budget and executer it. Instead we haven't had a balanced budget in decades because the democrats don't want it and they also don't want to handle the budget by voting on the 12 major appropriations bills one at a time. Instead we keep getting massive omnibus bills requiring more spending and lots of pork.
Plan a budget and that's all you get for the year.
 
We wouldn't have this problem if democrats knew how to plan a budget and executer it. Instead we haven't had a balanced budget in decades because the democrats don't want it and they also don't want to handle the budget by voting on the 12 major appropriations bills one at a time. Instead we keep getting massive omnibus bills requiring more spending and lots of pork.
Plan a budget and that's all you get for the year.
Only D’s don’t plan budgets.
 
What makes you think republicans spend less than democrats?
The problem isn't taxing it's spending. The Congress keeps telling us that increases in the economy, the GDP will result in more income to the government in tax revenue, fees licenses issued. That doesn't happen because we don't have a budget that we stick too. We need to start with better management of the money instead of just spending.
Most people understand they cannot spend more than they bring in each month. I can purchase long term on credit for big items but I still have to have it figured into my monthly expenses. Congress doesn't do that, they spend and then spend some more. Cut spending, rebuild the tax structure and stick to the budget.
 
The problem isn't taxing it's spending. The Congress keeps telling us that increases in the economy, the GDP will result in more income to the government in tax revenue, fees licenses issued. That doesn't happen because we don't have a budget that we stick too. We need to start with better management of the money instead of just spending.
Most people understand they cannot spend more than they bring in each month. I can purchase long term on credit for big items but I still have to have it figured into my monthly expenses. Congress doesn't do that, they spend and then spend some more. Cut spending, rebuild the tax structure and stick to the budget.
Familiarize yourself with entrenchment and you will see how silly you sound…
 
The problem isn't taxing it's spending.

You need to evolve away from the thinking that we tax in order to spend, that has not been true for decades now.
 
so, we wait until we fail?
We fail if we screw around with the debt ceiling. I don't believe people have an idea just how dire an economic situation could be created by defaulting on our debt. It could put the world in a depression (which will do the opposite of fixing the debt problem).

You fix the problem the problem upstream, with the budget. Living within our means includes not generally spending money we do not have, including not cutting taxes when the budget isn't balanced. The exceptions to this, however, are recession, when the government must invest in stimulus as it is the only entity large enough and with the right motivation to actually stimulate the economy during a recession.

The problem is, to fix our deficits, we will need to cut spending AND increase taxes, which will take political will and compromise (and time), neither of which we seem to have in abundance. But, that is the solution, this idea of screwing with the debt ceiling is just terrorism with the terrorist being ignorant of the power of their grenades, which makes this quite scary. What the wack-a-doo far right is setting up is a show with powerful explosives that they do not understand. We can only pray none of us gets hurt.

The problem isn't taxing it's spending. The Congress keeps telling us that increases in the economy, the GDP will result in more income to the government in tax revenue, fees licenses issued. That doesn't happen because we don't have a budget that we stick too. We need to start with better management of the money instead of just spending.
Most people understand they cannot spend more than they bring in each month. I can purchase long term on credit for big items but I still have to have it figured into my monthly expenses. Congress doesn't do that, they spend and then spend some more. Cut spending, rebuild the tax structure and stick to the budget.
Its both. The solution requires bi-partisan sacrifice, not a demand that the other guy sacrifice. Expecting the other guy to solve the problem and us not to be inconvenienced is pretty immature. You are either serious about the problem and willing to do what it takes or you are not serious.

BTW... the household budget analogy does not apply to the federal government.
 
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We fail if we screw around with the debt ceiling. I don't believe people have an idea just how dire an economic situation could be created by defaulting on our debt. It could put the world in a depression (which will do the opposite of fixing the debt problem).

You fix the problem the problem upstream, with the budget. Living within our means includes not generally spending money we do not have, including not cutting taxes when the budget isn't balanced. The exceptions to this, however, are recession, when the government must invest in stimulus as it is the only entity large enough and with the right motivation to actually stimulate the economy during a recession.

The problem is, to fix our deficits, we will need to cut spending AND increase taxes, which will take political will and compromise (and time), neither of which we seem to have in abundance. But, that is the solution, this idea of screwing with the debt ceiling is just terrorism with the terrorist being ignorant of the power of their grenades, which makes this quite scary. What the wack-a-doo far right is setting up is a show with powerful explosives that they do not understand. We can only pray none of us gets hurt.


Its both. The solution requires bi-partisan sacrifice, not a demand that the other guy sacrifice. Expecting the other guy to solve the problem and us not to be inconvenienced is pretty immature. You are either serious about the problem and willing to do what it takes or you are not serious.

BTW... the household budget analogy does not apply to the federal government.
I am all for taxes, but they must be used if good faith.
 
2011 here we come on Thursday.
A new GOP House, just like then.
An even crazier variant of the Gingrich revolution.
Worse than the TEA version.
D’s also held the Senate then.
 
The debt ceiling (or limit) is nothing more than a political toy to be deployed at will when someone wants to make this an issue.

Abolish it.

Accomplishes absolutely nothing. Legislation, no matter the means, determines intentions to spend and tax a long way back. Whenever we hit the next debt limit, it is an guesstimate as to when it will happen assuming the subject ever comes with when Congress passes various intentions to influence spending and taxation.

The only time this becomes an issue is when someone needs it to be simply because they do not control enough of Congress and/or the White House.

Historically, it's Congress' way to check the Executive or the other party. It wasn't controversial until Republicans decided they could weaponize it
 
Unfortunately for America (and the rest of the world), there are far too many ignorant Americans that believe that issue of raising the debt ceiling is a leverage point in controlling spending. As you well pointed out, this is about paying for the bills we have already incurred, it has nothing to do with spending. Yet, this garbage sells in the fact-free right wing media, so the wack-a-doo, make a show, right wing nuts that now control the Republican party think this plays well to the their voters. The Republican caucus, right now, is controlled by wing-nuts (crazy people). You don't want crazy people making decisions... but that is what is in front of us.

What is scary is they have no idea of the dire consequences of defaulting on our debt. They think they will control spending, but if they screw with this, they will get the opposite result .... at least a much greater expenditure on interest and may a ton of expenditure of stimulus to right the wrong of the recession/depression they create.

I pray these people don't go full stupid.
What you foolishly overlook is that the reason for needing to "RAISE THE DEBT CEILING" is the mismanagement of Taxes, all
the way to CRIMINAL FLEECING O AMERICA BY CORRUPT POLITICIANS!!!!....

Here's a VERY old American Story that is Absolutely right, but in today mind set is it totally Foreign to FAR too many people.
 
It's unconstitutional... IMHO

It's also dangerous. If the country were to go into an actual full-on default, I doubt we'd recover from it. Sure, life and the business of government would eventually go on after it's sorted, but once we tell bondholders we're willing to use their debts owed to make a political point, it damages the credibility of the bond issuer and confidence in the bond holder. Most of America's political and economic power these days is in the ability to use its currency to maintain its order. Undermine that and America's just another big country with a lot of financial problems.
 
Get Rid of The Debt Ceiling... Its absurd, the country is already in debt!!!
 
We wouldn't have this problem if democrats knew how to plan a budget and executer it. Instead we haven't had a balanced budget in decades because the democrats don't want it and they also don't want to handle the budget by voting on the 12 major appropriations bills one at a time. Instead we keep getting massive omnibus bills requiring more spending and lots of pork.
This might be the most moronic post ever made on DP. And there have been some moronic posts over the years. How do you not know that republicans have had total control of congress and the white house, numerous times over the past 40 years?
Plan a budget and that's all you get for the year.
Then why don't republicans ever do that?
 
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and to note the Republicans kept telling the lie that Obama doubled the debt and he didn't
the ONLY Presidents to double the debt in the last 60 plus years have been Republicans
Reagan almost TRIPLED it and G. W. Bush just over doubled it
But according to the Republicans they know how to cut the debt
have a nice day
 
The debt has been a "runaway train" since after WWII. We never paid the WWII debt down either. You are being a chicken little.
Oh, no ? Do say,,,


END OF FISCAL YEARDEBT (IN BILLIONS, ROUNDED)DEBT-TO-GDP RATIOMAJOR EVENTS BY PRESIDENTIAL TERM

1946$269119%Truman's 1st term budgets and recession
1952$25971%
1953$26668%Recession when war ended
1954$27169%Eisenhower's budgets and Recession
1955$27464%
1956$27361%
1957$27157%Recession
1958$27658%Eisenhower's 2nd term and recession
1959$28555%Fed raised rates
1960$28654%Recession
1961$28952%Bay of Pigs
1962$29850%JFK budgets and Cuban missile crisis
1963$30648%U.S. aids Vietnam, JFK killed
1964$31246%LBJ's budgets and war on poverty
1965$31743%U.S. entered Vietnam War
1966$32040%
1967$32640%
1968$34839%
1969$35436%Nixon took office
1970$37135%Recession
1971$39835%Wage-price controls
1972$42734%Stagflation
1973$45833%Nixon ended gold standard and OPEC oil embargo
1974$47531%Watergate and budget process created
1975$53332%Vietnam War ended
1976$62033%Stagflation
1977$69934%Stagflation
1978$77233%Carter budgets and recession
1979$82732%
1980$90832%Volcker raised fed rate to 20%
1981$99831%Reagan tax cut
...
1993$4,41163%Omnibus Budget Act
,,,,
2001$5,80755%9/11 attacks and EGTRRA
 
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and to note the Republicans kept telling the lie that Obama doubled the debt and he didn't
the ONLY Presidents to double the debt in the last 60 plus years have been Republicans
Reagan almost TRIPLED it and G. W. Bush just over doubled it
But according to the Republicans they know how to cut the debt
have a nice day


G.O.P. spending influence under Trump spanned from October 1, 2017 to September 30, 2021. So, the Trump "bump" exceeds 40 percent.

END OF FISCAL YEARDEBT (IN BILLIONS, ROUNDED)DEBT-TO-GDP RATIOMAJOR EVENTS BY PRESIDEN

2016$19,573105%Brexit
2017$20,245104%Congress raised the debt ceiling
2018$21,516105%Trump tax cuts
2019$22,719107%Trade wars
2020$27,748129%COVID-19 and 2020 recession
2021$29,617124%COVID-19 and American Rescue Plan Act
2022$30,824123%Inflation Reduction Act and student loan forgiveness


What "knucks" never bother or refuse to "get" in addition to the accurate description in Tbird19482's post, is that it is all relative.



The only threat to U.S,. fiscal soundness at present is G.O.P. extorting in lieu of having the votes to actually legislate the rollbacks of what has been successfully passed and signed..

U.S. debt is obligated in script U.S. prints. G.O.P. threatens to blow that up unless demands are met. List of G.O.P. demands becomes endless if democrats capitulate,

 
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