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The curse of 'white oil': electric vehicles' dirty secret

Chainsawmassacre

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I'm sure the AGW obsessed will say so what but the truth is these electric vehicles are not nearly as green as advertised. Lots of good info in this article pro and con for anyone truly interested.

"The race is on to find a steady source of lithium, a key component in rechargeable electric car batteries. But while the EU focuses on emissions, the lithium gold rush threatens environmental damage on an industrial scale"

"The extra materials and energy involved in manufacturing a lithium-ion battery mean that, at present, the carbon emissions associated with producing an electric car are higher than those for a vehicle running on petrol or diesel – by as much as 38%, according to some calculations. Until the electricity in national grids is entirely renewable, recharging the battery will involve a degree of dependence on coal or gas-fired power stations."


"Everyone having an electric vehicle means an enormous amount of mining, refining and all the polluting activities that come with it.”

Lithium accounts for a small part of the battery’s cost, which means there is less incentive for manufacturers to find an alternative. As it is, recycling lithium costs more than digging it out of the ground'




 
It's just a matter of time before the world gets off of most oil. Just like it was for horses and carriages.
 
Yeah, those lithium mines are pretty awful. But, I'm sure the individuals driving around in their "green vehicles" don't think much about them.
 
You should read up on windmills...another great "green" that does nothing but shift damage from one place to another.
I am familiar with the dark side of wind power. No free lunch.
 
"...by as much as 38%, according to some calculations."

The above quote was given as evidence but one would have to read through a lengthy article to find the citation. Unless the OP does the debate courtesy of advising wherein is located what is the salient evidence of the post for readers to study, I'm not going to go into the weeds.

"Fact: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing."

(See Myth #5):
Fact: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing.

Lifecycle GHGs EV Gas Cars

Estimates shown from GREET 2 2019 are intended to be illustrative only. Emissions will vary based on assumptions about the specific vehicles being compared, EV battery size and chemistry, vehicle lifetimes, and the electricity grid used to recharge the EV, among other factors.

Above, the blue bars include vehicle manufacturing (e.g., extracting materials, manufacturing and assembling parts, and vehicle assembly) and end-of-life (recycling or disposal). Orange bars include both tailpipe emissions and the upstream emissions associated with producing gasoline or electricity (U.S. mix).

Note that the OP cites an unverifiable statistic of manufacturing, which incl mining, only, whereas the above is verifiable data of both manufacturing and emissions from vehicle use.

The above data refutes the implied claim of the OP that EV are a net worse carbon emission than fossil fuel vehicles.
 
That's probably about what the horse and carriage folks said.
According to you they were right and we should never have traded in horses for internal combustion engines.
Think about that.
 
"...by as much as 38%, according to some calculations."

The above quote was given as evidence but one would have to read through a lengthy article to find the citation. Unless the OP does the debate courtesy of advising wherein is located what is the salient evidence of the post for readers to study, I'm not going to go into the weeds.

"Fact: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing."

(See Myth #5):
Fact: The greenhouse gas emissions associated with an electric vehicle over its lifetime are typically lower than those from an average gasoline-powered vehicle, even when accounting for manufacturing.

Lifecycle GHGs EV Gas Cars

Estimates shown from GREET 2 2019 are intended to be illustrative only. Emissions will vary based on assumptions about the specific vehicles being compared, EV battery size and chemistry, vehicle lifetimes, and the electricity grid used to recharge the EV, among other factors.

Above, the blue bars include vehicle manufacturing (e.g., extracting materials, manufacturing and assembling parts, and vehicle assembly) and end-of-life (recycling or disposal). Orange bars include both tailpipe emissions and the upstream emissions associated with producing gasoline or electricity (U.S. mix).

Note that the OP cites an unverifiable statistic of manufacturing, which incl mining, only, whereas the above is verifiable data of both manufacturing and emissions from vehicle use.

The above data refutes the implied claim of the OP that EV are a net worse carbon emission than fossil fuel vehicles.
The exact percentage is debatable but what's not debatable is that electric cars are not without their own pollution.
 
According to you they were right and we should never have traded in horses for internal combustion engines.
Think about that.
yeah, that lack of progress and getting passed by in the world and not being about to win two world wars during those times would have been fun.

and, now, progress continues to churn on and things continue to change.


buggy whip? musket?
 
yeah, that lack of progress and getting passed by in the world and not being about to win two world wars during those times would have been fun.

and, now, progress continues to churn on and things continue to change.


buggy whip? musket?
But now you blame the internal combustion engine for putting mankind at peril. Maybe you should have stuck with the horse.
 
I'm sure the AGW obsessed will say so what but the truth is these electric vehicles are not nearly as green as advertised. Lots of good info in this article pro and con for anyone truly interested.

"The race is on to find a steady source of lithium, a key component in rechargeable electric car batteries. But while the EU focuses on emissions, the lithium gold rush threatens environmental damage on an industrial scale"

"The extra materials and energy involved in manufacturing a lithium-ion battery mean that, at present, the carbon emissions associated with producing an electric car are higher than those for a vehicle running on petrol or diesel – by as much as 38%, according to some calculations. Until the electricity in national grids is entirely renewable, recharging the battery will involve a degree of dependence on coal or gas-fired power stations."


"Everyone having an electric vehicle means an enormous amount of mining, refining and all the polluting activities that come with it.”

Lithium accounts for a small part of the battery’s cost, which means there is less incentive for manufacturers to find an alternative. As it is, recycling lithium costs more than digging it out of the ground'





Why do they call it "white oil"? Is it because the evaporite deposits that house a lot of Li are usually white or offwhite? I thought most of the hard-rock ores of Li (eg lepidolite and/or spodumene) were more purple-pink. I'd vastly prefer "PURPLE OIL". That sounds kick-a**.

I wonder if there's any mining and pollution impact from internal combustion engine cars. I bet they use some metals and I'm thinking that oil ("Black oil") has some environmental impact that is less than benign. Hmmmmmm.
 
Why do they call it "white oil"? Is it because the evaporite deposits that house a lot of Li are usually white or offwhite? I thought most of the hard-rock ores of Li (eg lepidolite and/or spodumene) were more purple-pink. I'd vastly prefer "PURPLE OIL". That sounds kick-a**.

I wonder if there's any mining and pollution impact from internal combustion engine cars. I bet they use some metals and I'm thinking that oil ("Black oil") has some environmental impact that is less than benign. Hmmmmmm.
Reality seems to be a real sore spot to e car enthusiasts. They want to think these vehicles are a bold step forward that will let us have our cake and eat it too. Sorry guys but these new forms of transportation come with their own set of environmental problems. No free lunch and no free ride. Really does look like out of the frying pan into the fire.
 
Reality seems to be a real sore spot to e car enthusiasts. They want to think these vehicles are a bold step forward that will let us have our cake and eat it too. Sorry guys but these new forms of transportation come with their own set of environmental problems. No free lunch and no free ride. Really does look like out of the frying pan into the fire.

No one (except folks like you who dream up cartoon versions of people you disagree with) actually thinks electric cars are completely benign environmentally. But just pointing at Li mining as if that's somehow the worst thing on earth is a bit of a stretch compared to internal combustion cars which burn fossil fuels all day everyday every minute they are operating. Oh yeah and those cars ALSO require material mined from the earth. Not all of it super pleasant stuff to get out.

I got my electric car 2 1/2 years ago and I charge it on my home solar. So for the investment of whatever mining was necessary to get the Li for my batteries was a one-and-done event for the car. In the last 2 1/2 years I've driven effectively for FREE. I don't utilize fossil fuels to charge it and I don't utilize fossil fuels to drive it.

It's not perfect, but it's hardly the most evil thing on earth.
 
But now you blame the internal combustion engine for putting mankind at peril.
Holy crap. I have never taken one side or the other in the climate change debate because I don't understand all the details.

But what I will argue is that better technology and progress will continue. Unabated.
 
Why do they call it "white oil"? Is it because the evaporite deposits that house a lot of Li are usually white or offwhite? I thought most of the hard-rock ores of Li (eg lepidolite and/or spodumene) were more purple-pink. I'd vastly prefer "PURPLE OIL". That sounds kick-a**.

I wonder if there's any mining and pollution impact from internal combustion engine cars. I bet they use some metals and I'm thinking that oil ("Black oil") has some environmental impact that is less than benign. Hmmmmmm.
They are bad with proper terminology. Keep in mind, it's a Guardian article. Anyhow, since in mineral sciences, the term "white oil" has a specific meaning. They used it incorrectly. Just another reason to avoid The Guardian.
 
No one (except folks like you who dream up cartoon versions of people you disagree with) actually thinks electric cars are completely benign environmentally. But just pointing at Li mining as if that's somehow the worst thing on earth is a bit of a stretch compared to internal combustion cars which burn fossil fuels all day everyday every minute they are operating. Oh yeah and those cars ALSO require material mined from the earth. Not all of it super pleasant stuff to get out.

I got my electric car 2 1/2 years ago and I charge it on my home solar. So for the investment of whatever mining was necessary to get the Li for my batteries was a one-and-done event for the car. In the last 2 1/2 years I've driven effectively for FREE. I don't utilize fossil fuels to charge it and I don't utilize fossil fuels to drive it.

It's not perfect, but it's hardly the most evil thing on earth.
And I never claimed e cars were “the most evil thing on earth”. Obviously you are touchy on the subject because you thought owning an e car made your driving benign but the truth is it really is debatable which is worse, e car or internal combustion. Jury’s out on that one.
 
I'm sure the AGW obsessed will say so what but the truth is these electric vehicles are not nearly as green as advertised. Lots of good info in this article pro and con for anyone truly interested.

"The race is on to find a steady source of lithium, a key component in rechargeable electric car batteries. But while the EU focuses on emissions, the lithium gold rush threatens environmental damage on an industrial scale"

"The extra materials and energy involved in manufacturing a lithium-ion battery mean that, at present, the carbon emissions associated with producing an electric car are higher than those for a vehicle running on petrol or diesel – by as much as 38%, according to some calculations. Until the electricity in national grids is entirely renewable, recharging the battery will involve a degree of dependence on coal or gas-fired power stations."


"Everyone having an electric vehicle means an enormous amount of mining, refining and all the polluting activities that come with it.”

Lithium accounts for a small part of the battery’s cost, which means there is less incentive for manufacturers to find an alternative. As it is, recycling lithium costs more than digging it out of the ground'




Challenges with emerging technology? That never happened with early oil and gas development.
 
Challenges with emerging technology? That never happened with early oil and gas development.
E cars challenges and environmental cost are two different things. Lithium could just be the new coal and oil not only in power but in environment damage and don’t forget all the copper mining e technology is requiring.
Even the carbon footprint between internal combustion and e cars is similar if not equal.
 
E cars challenges and environmental cost are two different things. Lithium could just be the new coal and oil not only in power but in environment damage

Given that there are no coal mines in which the coal is extracted simply by dissolving it in water and re-precipitating it back out would possibly put that eventuality in doubt. But then again there is a LOT of mined material that goes into cars as well doesn't really make it a slam dunk that electric vehicles are inherently worse.

and don’t forget all the copper mining e technology is requiring.

...and there's no copper in internal combustion cars? How about other metals like those in catalytic convertors?

Even the carbon footprint between internal combustion and e cars is similar if not equal.

The one thing an electric car CAN do that an ICE car can NEVER do is operate without fossil fuels. I wonder if there's some hypothetical advantage there?
 
Given that there are no coal mines in which the coal is extracted simply by dissolving it in water and re-precipitating it back out would possibly put that eventuality in doubt. But then again there is a LOT of mined material that goes into cars as well doesn't really make it a slam dunk that electric vehicles are inherently worse.



...and there's no copper in internal combustion cars? How about other metals like those in catalytic convertors?



The one thing an electric car CAN do that an ICE car can NEVER do is operate without fossil fuels. I wonder if there's some hypothetical advantage there?
Ground water is being polluted by the leaching process and as of now most e cars do indeed run on fossil fuels.
Copper mining is increasing exponentially as e technology is forced on us.
 
Ground water is being polluted by the leaching process and as of now most e cars do indeed run on fossil fuels.
Copper mining is increasing exponentially as e technology is forced on us.
Copper mining will increase regardless. The groundwater problems are of environmental impact differences, and because it is cheaper to buy from countries that have little or no environmental regulations.

I find it funny that the AGW activists insist we are causing future costs with CO2, while at the same time ignoring the deadly ecological damage being done in the name of clean energy.
 
Ground water is being polluted by the leaching process and as of now most e cars do indeed run on fossil fuels.

Ground water is being polluted by extraction of petroleum as we speak. And I never said ev cars don't run on fossil fuels but they don't have to. Mine is a great example. I charge on solar. There is no way to drive an ICE car without fossil fuels. Just none.

Copper mining is increasing exponentially as e technology is forced on us.

Currently there's something like 50lb of copper in a regular car. There's also metals like rhodium which won't be needed for ev cars but are required for the catalytic convertors of ICE cars.
 
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