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The Constitutional Right to Bear Arms Has Outlived Its Usefulness

Kal'Stang

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It was quite interesting to watch this. I don't agree with the outcome and believe that the outcome is actually a very strong indicator of WHY we NEED the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution and that it hasn't outlived its usefulness. Note that this was done in New York, a place that notoriously is against the right to bear arms and limits it as much as possible so the result wasn't really all that surprising. Indeed I already expected such a result before 5 minutes of the video was even watched by me.

I would also like to note that this was an excellent example of what a debate SHOULD be like. You'll note that they didn't get bogged down in semantics like so often happens here at DP.
 

Crovax

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It was quite interesting to watch this. I don't agree with the outcome and believe that the outcome is actually a very strong indicator of WHY we NEED the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution and that it hasn't outlived its usefulness. Note that this was done in New York, a place that notoriously is against the right to bear arms and limits it as much as possible so the result wasn't really all that surprising. Indeed I already expected such a result before 5 minutes of the video was even watched by me.

I would also like to note that this was an excellent example of what a debate SHOULD be like. You'll note that they didn't get bogged down in semantics like so often happens here at DP.

The entire debate was semantical from a political perspective. In the beginning they even acknowledge that, they state that repealing the 2nd amendment is a political impossibility an that the SCOTUS has affirmed the individual right to bear arms. So why does it matter if the 2nd amendment has or hasnt outlived its usefulness?
 

Crimefree

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It was quite interesting to watch this. I don't agree with the outcome and believe that the outcome is actually a very strong indicator of WHY we NEED the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution and that it hasn't outlived its usefulness. Note that this was done in New York, a place that notoriously is against the right to bear arms and limits it as much as possible so the result wasn't really all that surprising. Indeed I already expected such a result before 5 minutes of the video was even watched by me.

I would also like to note that this was an excellent example of what a debate SHOULD be like. You'll note that they didn't get bogged down in semantics like so often happens here at DP.

There is a false assumption that both sides here on DP are arguing from a position of learned and processed thought which is obvious in the clip. However once removed from the loft echelons of academia one now has to deal with the indoctrinated converts of gun control propaganda. Not one gun control advocate here can explain why in the face of incontrovertible evidence they will not change their belief. That simple fact causes stress often beyond the breaking point of patience of those who do not understand that it is not possible to argue against a belief. The best one can do is present evidence in the hopes others will see the truth and not be conned by the emotional statements of believers.

The surest deterrent to propaganda is the truth as people who have the facts are not easily mislead.
 

Kal'Stang

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The entire debate was semantical from a political perspective. In the beginning they even acknowledge that, they state that repealing the 2nd amendment is a political impossibility an that the SCOTUS has affirmed the individual right to bear arms. So why does it matter if the 2nd amendment has or hasnt outlived its usefulness?

It's an intellectual debate. That is the only reason they had it.
 

Crovax

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It's an intellectual debate. That is the only reason they had it.

They could have argued whether a unicorn could beat a jackalope in a fight and that would have been a better use of brain power
 

apdst

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The anti-gunners will never give up repealing the 2nd Amendment. That's why we can't let our guard down.
 

azgreg

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They could have argued whether a unicorn could beat a jackalope in a fight and that would have been a better use of brain power

It can't. Jackalopes are bad ass.
 

Skeptic Bob

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They could have argued whether a unicorn could beat a jackalope in a fight and that would have been a better use of brain power

Dude, get serious. A unicorn is magical. A jackalope wouldn't stand a chance.
 

Visbek

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Note that this was done in New York, a place that notoriously is against the right to bear arms....
And if they had held it in Texas, it'd be just as biased in the opposite direction. Good luck finding any location where opinion is split right down the middle.

Anyway, the structure does try to account for local bias. They ask the audience the question before they have the debate, and then after the debate. The winner is based on which side won over more people, not based on which group has the larger number of supporters after the debate.

The scoring was:

Start of debate
64% in favor
18% against
18% undecided

End of debate
74% in favor (a gain of 10%)
22% against (a gain of 4%)

A narrow win.

P.S. This particular IQ2 was from 2013. Looks like the next one is about hunting.
 

Visbek

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The anti-gunners will never give up repealing the 2nd Amendment. That's why we can't let our guard down.
The debate wasn't about repealing the 2nd Amendment, or repealing the right to bear arms. They state that in the first minute or two of the debate.
 

Henrin

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That's a stupid debate. The right to own a gun is an extension of the right to property, the right to self defense, and the right to self governance(aka choosing governance). The real question is does the reach of the second amendment need to be expanded, not if it has outlived its usefulness.
 

Crimefree

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The anti-gunners will never give up repealing the 2nd Amendment. That's why we can't let our guard down.

It is not only he 2A they want. The 2A just gets in the way of removing rights and freedom and ability to stop government doing what it wants,

Government the servant has only one desire, to become the master.
 

Crimefree

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That's a stupid debate. The right to own a gun is an extension of the right to property, the right to self defense, and the right to self governance(aka choosing governance). The real question is does the reach of the second amendment need to be expanded, not if it has outlived its usefulness.

Actually not stupid at all it simply shows the extent those who seek the repeal or rape of the 2A will go to, If anyone thinks they are not serious think again and figure how many holes they have already torn in it. How many more can it take? If on loves and wants the 2A then it is time one started to protect and defend it.
 

VanceMack

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Its ironic that Dershowitz cites the correct founders historical intent (ie the right of citizens to keep and bear military grade firearms to secure liberty of the states over an oppressive federal government) but then completely ignores historical reality. The militia is all of us. The country was not won by an 'organized' militia in the vein he promotes. The country was won by ordinary citizens taking up arms and stepping forward in times of need. Even after the war, the citizens didnt form, drill, march, and take orders. They lived, they farmed, they owned businesses...all as part of the 'militia'.

And the Constitution (and especially not the 2nd amendment) will NEVER outlive its usefulness. The only people promoting such foolishness would be people that want to see the Constitution and original intent overrun.
 

Crimefree

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Its ironic that Dershowitz cites the correct founders historical intent (ie the right of citizens to keep and bear military grade firearms to secure liberty of the states over an oppressive federal government) but then completely ignores historical reality. The militia is all of us. The country was not won by an 'organized' militia in the vein he promotes. The country was won by ordinary citizens taking up arms and stepping forward in times of need. Even after the war, the citizens didnt form, drill, march, and take orders. They lived, they farmed, they owned businesses...all as part of the 'militia'.

And the Constitution (and especially not the 2nd amendment) will NEVER outlive its usefulness. The only people promoting such foolishness would be people that want to see the Constitution and original intent overrun.

No matter how many times these charlatans jump up and down trying to push the 2A into obscurity the intent of the 2A is nowhere made more clear the the Declaration of Independence. Something the founders expected citizens to jealously guard and protect. Any claim of a benign government inevitably neglects to even mention any safe-guards in the face of incontrovertible evidence governments are the biggest killer of all time.

It's like asking Ted Bundy to run the country without a single safeguard.
 

flogger

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The circumstances that prevailed when the 2nd amendment was drafted have not existed for centuries. Not only is it no longer remotely relevent its now a lethal liability for modern American society as the annual death toll dramatically demonstrates.

It is indeed ironic that every year now in the US over seven times more people are killed per annum as a consequence of this obsolete anachronism than were killed in the entire American Revolution 1775-1783

America's Wars: U.S. Casualties and Veterans
 

Crimefree

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The circumstances that prevailed when the 2nd amendment was drafted have not existed for centuries. Not only is it no longer remotely relevent its now a lethal liability for modern American society as the annual death toll dramatically demonstrates.

It is indeed ironic that every year now in the US over seven times more people are killed per annum as a consequence of this obsolete anachronism than were killed in the entire American Revolution 1775-1783

America's Wars: U.S. Casualties and Veterans

To what circumstances do you refer? Are you comparing the results of criminal action with that of war?
 

BretJ

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Dude, get serious. A unicorn is magical. A jackalope wouldn't stand a chance.

Jackalopes are the Chuck Norris of the animal kingdom...
 

TurtleDude

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even if the second is repealed, the federal government still does not properly have any gun control power and that idiotic commerce clause nonsense is just that

but we have a sound argument that the NINTH amendment protects gun ownership
 

TurtleDude

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Jackalopes are the Chuck Norris of the animal kingdom...

really? how many Chuck Norris heads do you see on the walls of bar rooms or gun shops?
 

BretJ

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really? how many Chuck Norris heads do you see on the walls of bar rooms or gun shops?

Those are their discarded heads. They keep growing new ones.
 

TurtleDude

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Those are their discarded heads. They keep growing new ones.

are you saying they have an exoskeleton like some sort of furry grasshopper?
 

Kal'Stang

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The circumstances that prevailed when the 2nd amendment was drafted have not existed for centuries. Not only is it no longer remotely relevent its now a lethal liability for modern American society as the annual death toll dramatically demonstrates.

It is indeed ironic that every year now in the US over seven times more people are killed per annum as a consequence of this obsolete anachronism than were killed in the entire American Revolution 1775-1783

America's Wars: U.S. Casualties and Veterans

Last I knew there were still governments out there that are dictorial. Last I knew governments still grab as much power as they can every chance they get no matter what government it is.

And really, comparing wars to criminal acts? Talk about apples and oranges. But if you want real hyperbole why not use Desert Storm for your casualties? Only 300 some odd US soldiers killed there. I'm sure you'll get more bang for your buck there. (pun intended)

Instead of talking meme's why not try actually debating.
 

TaterTots

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Sure. Because home invasions, rapists, murderers, robbery, and the like have ceased to exist. If people decide to let these outrageous gun control laws to pass...pretty soon there is going to be a knock at the door asking for your firearms.
 

RetiredUSN

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The circumstances that prevailed when the 2nd amendment was drafted have not existed for centuries. Not only is it no longer remotely relevent its now a lethal liability for modern American society as the annual death toll dramatically demonstrates.

It is indeed ironic that every year now in the US over seven times more people are killed per annum as a consequence of this obsolete anachronism than were killed in the entire American Revolution 1775-1783

America's Wars: U.S. Casualties and Veterans

Hey Aristotle.......... we have 320 million people now. We had 2.5 million back then.
 
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