• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Constitution Should be Scrapped!

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Surely the constitution of the United States does just not work.
Has it really made the US great in terms of politics or society.
United State's women got the vote relatively late.
The issue of segregation by race was not helped by the constitution.

How has the constitution actually helped the United States
 

zymurgy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
863
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
Surely the constitution of the United States does just not work.
Has it really made the US great in terms of politics or society.
United State's women got the vote relatively late.
The issue of segregation by race was not helped by the constitution.

How has the constitution actually helped the United States
The contitution has not been followed for over 100 years. We have scrapped it.
 

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
20,688
Reaction score
7,320
Location
Washington, DC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Willoughby said:
Surely the constitution of the United States does just not work.
Has it really made the US great in terms of politics or society.
Yes, it absolutely has. Our constitution is the single biggest reason that the US is "great in terms of politics."

Willoughby said:
United State's women got the vote relatively late.
But it's in the Constitution now, so this is a moot point.

Willoughby said:
The issue of segregation by race was not helped by the constitution.
Yes it was. If it wasn't for a correct reading of the Constitution, the SCOTUS would've had no basis for Brown v Board of Education, and we might still be segregated today.

Willoughby said:
How has the constitution actually helped the United States
By establishing the principles of limited government, the rule of law, equality under the law, individual rights, and states' rights, with liberty and justice for all.
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
sorry i think you have slightly misunderstood my point. it is probably me not explaining myself properly. Basically i was trying to aak the question:
The US constitution is looked on very favourably especially by americans but what makes it any better a constitution. In the Uk we don't have a constitution but we have a political system that is fairly money free and not dominated by interest groups. We wiped out racist elements quicker and don't have anything like the death penalty. In New Zealand, which also has no written constitution was the first to give universal suffrage.

My basic point is that shouldn't a constitution such as the United state's, which is prasied so highly, lead to a better political system/society or at least on a par with other countries that don't have constitutions or have weaker constitutions.

It seems to me that all it does it cloud the whole political system in semantics with everybody picking over what it actually means
 
F

FallingPianos

Willoughby said:
Surely the constitution of the United States does just not work.
Has it really made the US great in terms of politics or society.
United State's women got the vote relatively late.
The issue of segregation by race was not helped by the constitution.

How has the constitution actually helped the United States
I think the constitution needs a lot of amending, but I wouldnt scrap the whole idea. I think its likely that our society would have degraded a lot faster without it in place.

I figure even the most perfect system of government is doomed to eventually fail because imperfect people will corrupt it, but I think having a constitution slows the process down.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
sorry i think you have slightly misunderstood my point. it is probably me not explaining myself properly. Basically i was trying to aak the question:
The US constitution is looked on very favourably especially by americans but what makes it any better a constitution. In the Uk we don't have a constitution but we have a political system that is fairly money free and not dominated by interest groups. We wiped out racist elements quicker and don't have anything like the death penalty. In New Zealand, which also has no written constitution was the first to give universal suffrage.

My basic point is that shouldn't a constitution such as the United state's, which is prasied so highly, lead to a better political system/society or at least on a par with other countries that don't have constitutions or have weaker constitutions.

It seems to me that all it does it cloud the whole political system in semantics with everybody picking over what it actually means
Because the Constitution is a guarantee and a safeguard to protect the natural rights of the people, unlike in your system of goverment where parliament can just decide what it wants to do on a whim or based on some flimsy tradition your form of Government leaves open the possibility for tyranny IE King George the III. We created our Constitution precisely because of the failure of your system of Government.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
Because the Constitution is a guarantee and a safeguard to protect the natural rights of the people,
Except the ones at GITMO, right?
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We created our Constitution precisely because of the failure of your system of Government.
so who system is working better at the moment...

also one thing that doesn't look democratic at all is the electoral college...can it be justified
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
so who system is working better at the moment...

also one thing that doesn't look democratic at all is the electoral college...can it be justified
We are a representative Democratic-republic not an absolute Democracy, without the electoral college it would be mob rule the states with the highest populations would be allowed to dictate policy to the rest of the states or higher populated urban areas could dictate to less populated rural areas but instead we have a system set up for equal representation of all the states, we protect the minority while respecting the will of the majority, and obviously our system of Government is working better than yours (and the rest of the worlds) at the moment and has been ever since its inception.
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
and obviously our system of Government is working better than yours (and the rest of the worlds) at the moment and has been ever since its inception.
any reasons for making this rather foolish sweeping statement??
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
any reasons for making this rather foolish sweeping statement??
Because it's the truth, our Constitution is a perfect document created by imperfect men who acknowledged their own imperfection and the changing needs of society that's why we have those things called amendments to allow for change but not sweeping revolutionary change based on a whim or a passing fad which can have disastrous results for a society, permanent policy shifts for temporary problems is not the best way to govern a society, ie the rising tide of socialism in Europe, in that the governments cure for problems usually turns out to be worse than the disease but rather our amendments allow for calculated moderate change which is well thought out and not done on a whim.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This thread is so full of BS.....

The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution Of the United States Of America are the documents that started a this Great nation. Sure we have had some bumps in the road but look at what WE have gained Look at what we are as a Nation. Think of how better we can become.


How about this..... scrap the bible instead.
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Look at what we are as a Nation.
a bullying nation? a self-obssessed nation? a rogue state?
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Willoughby said:
a bullying nation? a self-obssessed nation? a rogue state?
List how we are these things and show me your proof..
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
a bullying nation? a self-obssessed nation? a rogue state?
No the safeguards of liberty, the only country in the world willing to fight for the freedom of others not just for ouselves, the most generous nation on earth, the leaders in technological, agricultural, and medical innovation, the lynch pin in the global economy, and when the U.N. is dominated by tyrants and despots, when the human rights commission of the U.N. consists of members; such as, the Sudan and Cuba which makes them exempt from investigation then I take being a rogue state as a compliment.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
cherokee said:
How about this..... scrap the bible instead.

Me making this statement was un-called for on my part.
I Apologize to the religious members here for saying it.
 

-Demosthenes-

Internet Revolutionist
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
7
Location
USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
cherokee said:
How about this..... scrap the bible instead.
Me making this statement was un-called for on my part.
I Apologize to the religious members here for saying it.
Ironically "scrapping" the Bible from legislation and government coincides with the first amendment.


A government based on a constitution has less potential for abuse. The supreme court strikes down laws all the time because they conflict with the constitution. Other countries like England have good systems because past documents (ex: Magna Carta) and past court rulings that are held as precedent work together as a sort of "constitution."
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
England have good systems because past documents (ex: Magna Carta) and past court rulings that are held as precedent work together as a sort of "constitution."
now that i can agree with. this informal constitution rights mean that we have some safeguards to liberty but we don't spend endless hours desperatly trying to figure out what the constitution actually means!

List how we are these things and show me your proof..
Bullying - tying help to eastern european countries to a rejection of idea that american soilders can be prosecuted under international law:

These agreements prohibit the surrender to the ICC of a broad scope of persons including current or former government officials, military personnel, and U.S. employees (including non-national contractors) and nationals. These agreements, which in some cases are reciprocal, do not always include an obligation by the United States to subject those suspected persons to investigation and/or prosecution:

The U.S. has attempted to pressure states into signing these bilateral agreements with it by adopting legislation requiring the suspension of military assistance and U.S. Economic Support Fund (ESF) aid to those States Parties which do not sign these agreements. ESF funding entails a wide range of governance programs including international counter-terrorism efforts, peace process programs, anti-drug trafficking initiatives, truth and reconciliation commissions, wheelchair distribution and HIV/AIDS education, among others. In 2003 the U.S. stopped military aid for 35 countries (among them nine European countries). U.S. law requires the cessation of such aid payments if a state is unwilling to sign the bilateral agreement (there are exceptions for NATO-members and allies such as Israel, Egypt, Australia and South Korea).
a self-obssessed nation?
the above exemption for us soldiers, rejection of international law etc etec

a rogue state?
now this one is more the opinion of a large number of people around the world
but they would probably point to the support of some very dodgy countries such as Saudi arabia, pakistan, israel etc. the group of mercenry states that act for the US etc

of course these are all opinions. but i just think it would be good if americans considered every now and agian why they are so poorly regarded by the rest of the world!
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
now that i can agree with. this informal constitution rights mean that we have some safeguards to liberty but we don't spend endless hours desperatly trying to figure out what the constitution actually means!
No, instead you take away the political and economic rights of the citizenry based on the whim of politicians seeking to either gain or maintain their own power by pandering to the will of the unwashed masses.


Bullying - tying help to eastern european countries to a rejection of idea that american soilders can be prosecuted under international law:
Just why in the hell shouldn't we tie foriegn aid to our foriegn policy? Is the U.S. supposed to not do what every other country does just to appease those who will just hate us anyways regardless?


the above exemption for us soldiers, rejection of international law etc etec

etc etc etc, provide examples we do not violate international law, the international criminal court is a farce with only one intended goal which is to put the U.S. on trial by tyrants and despots and give them a sense of legitimacy and moral equivalency. The U.N. is already the soap box for dictators around the world and now you're suggesting that we hand over our soveriegnty to them too? What a joke.


now this one is more the opinion of a large number of people around the world
but they would probably point to the support of some very dodgy countries such as Saudi arabia, pakistan, israel etc. the group of mercenry states that act for the US etc

of course these are all opinions. but i just think it would be good if americans considered every now and agian why they are so poorly regarded by the rest of the world!
Who cares? Anti-Americanism isn't some new phenomenon anti-American sentiment in Europe has existed as long as our nation, you people say that if we don't have an interventionalist foriegn policy then we're supporting tyrants, but when we do have an interventionalist policy that we're imperialist, that if we don't trade with some countries that we're being unfair but if we do trade with some countries that we're supporting totalitarian regimes, Europe gets p!ssed when we intervene in Kosovo, Europe gets p!ssed when we don't intervene in Rwanda, world opinion is negative if we don't trade with Iran world opinion is negative when we trade with Saudi Arabia it's a joke at this point, screw what they think, our foriegn policy should not be dictated to us by a bunch of former colonialists, former Communist expansionists, present Communist expansionists, or totalitarian pan-Islamic regimes, you people have no room to talk. Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.
 
Last edited:

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
etc etc etc, provide examples we do not violate international law, the international criminal court is a farce with only one intended goal which is to put the U.S. on trial by tyrants and despots and give them a sense of legitimacy and moral equivalency. The U.N. is already the soap box for dictators around the world and now you're suggesting that we hand over our soveriegnty to them too? What a joke.
i accept that unforntuntly you have a superior military and economic power but maybe the UN and ICC wouldn't be such "a joke" (not that i agree with that) if you supported them properly and stuck to what they say. I think the main argument and problem with the US, that people have, are the double standards. Supporting oppressive regimes only when it helps you, supporting democracy only when it helps you, supporting terrorist organisations only when it helps you etc. Maybe try and make the US a force for good and peace in the world that would help a bit! Of course i am not saying that the UK is perfect in this respect or that any country is perfect but i just think that your power might be used for good more often!
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
i accept that unforntuntly you have a superior military and economic power but maybe the UN and ICC wouldn't be such "a joke" (not that i agree with that) if you supported them properly and stuck to what they say. I think the main argument and problem with the US, that people have, are the double standards. Supporting oppressive regimes only when it helps you, supporting democracy only when it helps you, supporting terrorist organisations only when it helps you etc. Maybe try and make the US a force for good and peace in the world that would help a bit! Of course i am not saying that the UK is perfect in this respect or that any country is perfect but i just think that your power might be used for good more often!
Our power might be used for good? Hmm, so if we don't free all the people we shouldn't free any of them am I right? It's always all or nothing with you people isn't it? Maybe the U.S. isn't perfect maybe we can't always live up to the same high moral standards as the colonial powers of Europe or the tyrannical powers throughout the world, (sarcastic emphasis added) but guess what? We're the best thing going right now. Perhaps if the peoples in oppressive governments would look introspectively at their own corrupt institutions instead of trying to shift the blame on us then they would be able to change but as long as there's people like you out their giving these people legitimacy they will never change. Furthemore; your obtuse statements regarding our support for tyrannical regimes is impossible to defend against unless you give specific empirical examples.
 

Willoughby

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
411
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Perhaps if the peoples in oppressive governments would look introspectively at their own corrupt institutions instead of trying to shift the blame on us then they would be able to change but as long as there's people like you out their giving these people legitimacy they will never change.
its not just oppressive governments saying these things. Its religious leaders, governments in democracies, elected people in these democracies, ordinary people all over the world.

your obtuse statements regarding our support for tyrannical regimes is impossible to defend against unless you give specific empirical examples.
Well a case in point would be its whole attitude to Latin America:

Support for undemocratic govs., coups or insurgents movements in:

Guatemale
Honduras
Chilean coup of 1973
The US provided significant support for General Augusto Pinochet in Chile, who came into power in the Chilean coup and went on to commit many human rights abuses.

One of the latest examples of alleged US intervention in Latin America is the short-lived coup in Venezuela, where president Hugo Chávez was briefly overthrown on April 11, 2002. Some claim evidence pointed towards US involvement in the coup, especially when in 2004 unclassified information from National Endowment for Democracy showed that several thousand dollars were paid to Venezuelan institutions which promote the overthrow of Chávez and the end of the what is called the Bolivarian Revolution.

The U.S. was responsible for arming and training the notorious Atlacatl Battalion in El Salvador. They were responsible for the rape, torture, mutilation, and murder of civilians, including children. A famous example of this was the El Mozote massacre. When word of this massacre got out, it was dismissed by the U.S. government as communist propaganda. In 1992, the United Nation Truth Commission investigated the site of the massacre and found 143 skeletons, including 131 children under the age of twelve. The ammunition found around the site of the massacre was manufactured in Lake City, Missouri.

and outside Latin America:

Eygpt
Jordan
Saudi Arabia

Greece:
American support for the anti-communist government of George Papadopoulos in Greece (1967-1974), which many regarded as an oppressive military dictatorship and which compelled many prominent Greeks to flee Greece

UK- the US government never tried to stop open fund raising in the US for the IRA
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Willoughby said:
its not just oppressive governments saying these things. Its religious leaders, governments in democracies, elected people in these democracies, ordinary people all over the world.



Well a case in point would be its whole attitude to Latin America:

Support for undemocratic govs., coups or insurgents movements in:

Guatemale
Honduras
Chilean coup of 1973
The US provided significant support for General Augusto Pinochet in Chile, who came into power in the Chilean coup and went on to commit many human rights abuses.

One of the latest examples of alleged US intervention in Latin America is the short-lived coup in Venezuela, where president Hugo Chávez was briefly overthrown on April 11, 2002. Some claim evidence pointed towards US involvement in the coup, especially when in 2004 unclassified information from National Endowment for Democracy showed that several thousand dollars were paid to Venezuelan institutions which promote the overthrow of Chávez and the end of the what is called the Bolivarian Revolution.
Prove that we gave logistical or financial aid to the coup plotters in Chile or Venezuela, all you have is leftist propoganda, the U.S. didn't overthrow Allende Communism did, Pinochet was under orders from the Chilean Deputy of Chambers to out the Communist usurper Salvadore Allende.
The U.S. was responsible for arming and training the notorious Atlacatl Battalion in El Salvador. They were responsible for the rape, torture, mutilation, and murder of civilians, including children. A famous example of this was the El Mozote massacre. When word of this massacre got out, it was dismissed by the U.S. government as communist propaganda. In 1992, the United Nation Truth Commission investigated the site of the massacre and found 143 skeletons, including 131 children under the age of twelve. The ammunition found around the site of the massacre was manufactured in Lake City, Missouri.
So what? The ammunition found in the Columbine victims was bought at K-Mart does that mean that K-Mart supported the Columbine massacre, you're doing what you people do best; inventing causation. And again where is your empirical evidence to back up your assertion that we were training and arming Atlacatl?
and outside Latin America:

Eygpt
Jordan
Saudi Arabia

Greece:
American support for the anti-communist government of George Papadopoulos in Greece (1967-1974), which many regarded as an oppressive military dictatorship and which compelled many prominent Greeks to flee Greece
See this is what I mean you people qualify free trade and non-interventionalism as support for their policies which it is not, it's called pragmatism look it up.

UK- the US government never tried to stop open fund raising in the US for the IRA
Example b. of you trying to create your own U.S. foriegn policy, the truth of the matter is that the IRA was on the state departments list of terrorist organizations, non-interventionalism does not equate to support.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Willoughby said:
Bullying - tying help to eastern european countries to a rejection of idea that american soilders can be prosecuted under international law:

These agreements prohibit the surrender to the ICC of a broad scope of persons including current or former government officials, military personnel, and U.S. employees (including non-national contractors) and nationals. These agreements, which in some cases are reciprocal, do not always include an obligation by the United States to subject those suspected persons to investigation and/or prosecution:




the above exemption for us soldiers, rejection of international law etc etec



now this one is more the opinion of a large number of people around the world
but they would probably point to the support of some very dodgy countries such as Saudi arabia, pakistan, israel etc. the group of mercenry states that act for the US etc

of course these are all opinions. but i just think it would be good if americans considered every now and agian why they are so poorly regarded by the rest of the world!

And your source for this is?.....

while you looking up the links just what kind of government should the USA have/be?
 
Top Bottom