The "Christian Right"

[tryreading]

I do want to point out, even though I have also been part of it, this thread has deviated some. My concern was not "god in government" more so it was about the desire and influence of the "Christian Right" in American society, not limited to the political sphere only.

It has deviated, but it has remained civil, which is rare when separation is discussed. I think its my fault the discussion went astray. Sorry.

 

[ChristopherHall]

I do want to point out, even though I have also been part of it, this thread has deviated some. My concern was not "god in government" more so it was about the desire and influence of the "Christian Right" in American society, not limited to the political sphere only.

My beef with the Christian Right is that it has sided with the rich and powerful interests and has completely disregarded those in need. When they support politicians who cut Medicare and Medicaid to facilitate billion dollar tax cuts for their corporate campaign contributors I feel raging mad.

"2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:2-4 (King James Version)

 

[Engimo]

Again, what religion. The term "God" is philosophical to a deist, principle for an agnostic, perhaps it means just a higher sense of goodness for an atheist. As I pointed out before the following defintions for God are acceptable:

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

If you choose a religious defintion...that's your choice. It just shows you're choosing to be offended.

Except that's not what it means and you damned well know it. It's the capitalized, proper-noun, God-of-the-Bible God. Does anyone ever use "God" in a context that does not refer to a divinity? If they do, I certainly have yet to hear it, and it is most definitely not what is meant the vast majority of the time.

It doesn't matter how much you try to broaden the definition of "God", that's just not how it is used in conversation or in pretty much any discourse. Inherent in the definition of God is divinity, and divinity means religion.

 

[ChristopherHall]

Except that's not what it means and you damned well know it. It's the capitalized, proper-noun, God-of-the-Bible God. Does anyone ever use "God" in a context that does not refer to a divinity? If they do, I certainly have yet to hear it, and it is most definitely not what is meant the vast majority of the time.

Deists speak of God philosophically. My wife is from a Jewish family. They used the term "God" capitalized (sometimes G-d). Also Muslims have used the term "God" capitalized. Which God is it? The Trinitarian God of classical Christianity, the monotheistic Hebraic God of Judaism, or the monotheistic lunar God of Islam? There are more examples, but I think you get my point.

It doesn't matter how much you try to broaden the definition of "God", that's just not how it is used in conversation or in pretty much any discourse. Inherent in the definition of God is divinity, and divinity means religion.

Is the curse, "Godd@mn!", a prayer? :roll:

The term "God" means very little. My God has a name. Now if you said, "under Jesus", or "under Jehovah", or "under Allah", you would have a point.

 

[tryreading]

Jefferson was running for President. One thing I learned a long time ago...never believe a man running for President, he'll say almost anything. :lol:

Here's a link to some very interesting statements made by many of our founding fathers.

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/founding.html#ja

I went to your link, read most of the quotes. I know that you know there are many quotes that would back up the separation side of the argument, from the same men. But your quotes are still as relevant. The whole of them should be understood in context.

Hamilton would be an exception to the separation thing for the most part. But I don't give him much respect because he wanted to form our government very similar to the British style at the time.

 

[kal-el]

First, what is your distinction between "murders" and "killings?"

I believe they're one in the same, given different names by fallible humans.

Or did you simply add BOTH of these for dramatic effect?

Nope. You're vacuous sarcasm is punctually understood.

Secondly, where, EXACTLY, did you find scripture where God ORDERED rapes?

O, I'm getting tired of schooling Christians on something they should already be aware of:

Numbers 31:7-18
They fought against Midian, as the lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba- the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam so of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns were the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoil, and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan accros the Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army- the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds- who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" He asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Is this little paragraph descriptive enough for you? It seems this "god" fellow commands rape and murder of the Midianites. And the last sentence alludes to the fact that virgins should be raped. Sounds like a Loving god.:lol:

Thirdly, many would argue that God simply allows humans to make decisions for themselves and makes them aware of the consequences (The wages of sin are death). In the story of the Passover, for example, the Egyptians were given many, many opportunities to change their evil ways. They simply chose to ignore or disobey God's laws. The outcome, they brought upon themselves. Same with Sodom and Gommorah.

Yes, the passover was the first of three annual festivals, to commemorate the final plague on Egypt when the firstborn of the Egyptians were slain and the Israelites were spared because of the blood smeared all over their doorposts.LOL You wanna talk abot Sodom and Gommorah, do ya? Ha, Lot offers up his two virgin daughters for the sake of 2 angels. He killed all those living in those cities by raining down burning sulfur, hardly a trivial task.:lol:

Fourthly, a mafia headman would indicate organized crime. How is it that you come to equate God with common criminals who sustain themselves through the exploitation of others (ie., prostitution, gambling, drugs, and during the 20's - bootleg liquor). Whom did God exploit for his own benefit, and why would he even need to? Please, enlighten us O Great One! You, evidently are privy to some unearthly vision of what the Bible truly means and of what God's true intentions are.

O, here we go again. If you bothered to even read the bible, you would know that apparently Moses was god's hitman, and he used Moses many times to exert his evil will:

Numbers 31:1-2
The lord said to Moses, "Take vengence on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

Numbers 25: 16-17
The lord said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them."

Numbers 21:34-35
The lord said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you, with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon."

If this isn't gruesome enough, in Exodus 17:10-15, god uses Joshua to kill the Amalekites.

O, here this fella teaches us his kind hospitality:

Numbers 25:16-17
The lord said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them."

Haha, I just had to post that verse again.LOL

By the way, I've been reading some of your posts concerning scripture, and most of your observations simply reflect YOUR twited interpretations. Biblical scripture, especially the Old Testament was not written to be interpreted literally. Even Jesus and the apostles used symbolism and spoke in parables. The Bible, like the U.S. Constitution can, for the most part, be interpreted liberally to mean just about anything you want it to. For example, the Judicial System's interpretation of "Free Speech" has changed dramatically over the past 200 years. True-believers (those with FAITH) will take a positive message from the pages of the Bible and will use it as a guide for how to live their lives. To use the Bible as a literal Historic account is naive.

For the last time, the bible makes no distiction as to what is to be taken literally, and what isn't. By you saying that I'm interpreting verses to mean something different, you're conceding that the bible isn't infallible.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the lord is perfect,reviving the soul.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is god-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

I, personally believe you've been reading too many Dan Brown novels.:roll: :roll:

Was that you're pedomorphic attempt at humor?

 

[ChristopherHall]

God...being God has all authority and power to do as He so pleases. We may not understand his actions or not agree...but it is his divine prerogative.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Is this little paragraph descriptive enough for you? It seems this "god" fellow commands rape and murder of the Midianites. And the last sentence alludes to the fact that virgins should be raped. Sounds like a Loving god.

Now, you should know as well as I do, if you know anything at all of History, that this was not rape. Polygamy was acceptable at that time and it was customary to take the women of slain foes as wives. It would be much more cruel to leave the women to fend for themselves in this harsh environment, wouldn't you think? Don't try and mislead the reader here. You take too much of the Bible completely out of context. Let's forget about literal interpretation, you, like a left-wing media pundit take only snippits of stories and scripture and generalize it to cover all Biblical doctrines.

By the way neither I nor the Bible denies that God is both a jealous and vengeful God. (Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord!) And the foes of God's chosen have often suffered his wrath throughout the ages. Anyone who claims that God is ALL ABOUT PEACE is naive. However; can't we be a bit more fair? Wouldn't you say that he's more of a Robin Hood or Joan of Arc and less of a mafia Don? By the way, your observations are quite impractical as it is unfair to hold events that occurred 3000 years ago up to today's codes of ethics and morality. Alot of things have changed in 3000 years. Things that were acceptable then, are now seen by many as abominations and vice-versa. Any true Christian, believes that God has given us the ability to rationalize. As far as I know, we're the only species on the planet with the ability to choose between rational and irrational behavior. Given this ability, we also have the opportunity to re-evaluate our values as times change and gradually change what is acceptable and what is not. I believe that God is not only aware of this, but designed it this way. That's just my feelings on it.

 

[kal-el]

God...being God has all authority and power to do as He so pleases. We may not understand his actions or not agree...but it is his divine prerogative.

Wow, are you a god apologetic now? Under that guise he can commit numerous atrocities, but they're all fine and dandy because "it's his divine perogative." I guess it was his perogative for killing his prophets for believing his lies, or punishing the Israelities for their father's sins, or that he will slaughter innocents for their parents crimes?

 

[kal-el]

Now, you should know as well as I do, if you know anything at all of History, that this was not rape. Polygamy was acceptable at that time and it was customary to take the women of slain foes as wives.

Customary? Yea, polygamy was acceptable, but last time I checked, rape was not. And it was cleary rape: but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. . And there's numerous other examples in the OT, like god giving the numerous wives of king Saul to David, and the raper has to marry the women he raped, etc, etc, etc.

It would be much more cruel to leave the women to fend for themselves in this harsh environment, wouldn't you think?

I think she'd rather fend for herself, than to be sexually violated by Moses's minions and an emotionally insecure diety.:lol:

Don't try and mislead the reader here.

How is it misleading? I'm only speaking the truth. I'm not making any naked assertions. All that I have said is supported in scripture.

You take too much of the Bible completely out of context.

O, so tiring. It seems Christians only yell this when their bible is shown as being erroneous. One again, if it is perfect, it is impossible for imperfect humans to take it out of context. Do yourself a favor and just admit the bible isn't perfect.

Let's forget about literal interpretation, you, like a left-wing media pundit take only snippits of stories and scripture and generalize it to cover all Biblical doctrines.

Now what pray tell do liberals have to do with this?

By the way neither I nor the Bible denies that God is both a jealous and vengeful God. (Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord!)

Among other things.:lol:

And the foes of God's chosen have often suffered his wrath throughout the ages.

Also innocents who were slaughtered because of their parent's crimes. Is that just?

Anyone who claims that God is ALL ABOUT PEACE is naive.

Agreed.

However; can't we be a bit more fair? Wouldn't you say that he's more of a Robin Hood or Joan of Arc and less of a mafia Don?

Well I could, but on the other hand, Robin Hood or Joan of Arc didn't kill firstborn, slaughter hundreds of innocents, or terrorize people with arrows and poison.

By the way, your observations are quite impractical as it is unfair to hold events that occurred 3000 years ago up to today's codes of ethics and morality.

Ok, you're being quite hypocritical. Christians are always quoting the bible for numerous moral standards.

Alot of things have changed in 3000 years.

That's quite a keen observation. Nothing gets by you.:lol:

 

[FluffyNinja]

Customary? Yea, polygamy was acceptable, but last time I checked, rape was not. And it was cleary rape: but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. . And there's numerous other examples in the OT, like god giving the numerous wives of king Saul to David, and the raper has to marry the women he raped, etc, etc, etc.



I think she'd rather fend for herself, than to be sexually violated by Moses's minions and an emotionally insecure diety.:lol:



How is it misleading? I'm only speaking the truth. I'm not making any naked assertions. All that I have said is supported in scripture.



O, so tiring. It seems Christians only yell this when their bible is shown as being erroneous. One again, if it is perfect, it is impossible for imperfect humans to take it out of context. Do yourself a favor and just admit the bible isn't perfect.



Now what pray tell do liberals have to do with this?



Among other things.:lol:



Also innocents who were slaughtered because of their parent's crimes. Is that just?



Agreed.



Well I could, but on the other hand, Robin Hood or Joan of Arc didn't kill firstborn, slaughter hundreds of innocents, or terrorize people with arrows and poison.




Ok, you're being quite hypocritical. Christians are always quoting the bible for numerous moral standards.



That's quite a keen observation. Nothing gets by you.:lol:

First off, I never made the claim that the Bible was perfect. I agree that there are many doctrines in the scripture, particularly Old Testament, which have been rendered outdated and obsolete -- I'm sure many of our Jewish friends will take offense to this, oh well.

Secondly, I still believe that the primary weakness of your arguments does not lie in your interpretation of Old Testament scripture (you appear to be either quite knowledgeable of Biblical lore or are good at internet search queries) but in your OVERALL UNDERSTANDING of Modern Christian Faith. You still seem to be operating under the assumption that ALL Christians interpret scripture in the SAME way and defend all Biblical Accounts as perfect. I am knowledgeable enough to know that the Bible has undergone many translations through several different languages since the original books were written. I realize that each translation has resulted in some information being deleted and some extraneous info being added. I'm aware that there are many words and phrases which cannot be literally translated from Hebrew to Greek to English. Therefore, the translations we are left with must be considered far from perfect. I agree, many Christians may not admit this, but I'm not one of those.

At some point in your life you must come to the understanding that by stereotyping ALL Christians and thier beliefs about scripture your arguments simply begin to take on the tone of a bitter atheist. If you truly want to be helpful or informative, stop making such generalizations and understand that there are many Christians who read scripture for the POSITIVE messages and the HOPE that much of the Bible briings to them. For many it simply gives their life meaning and spiritual guidance in a morally tumultuous world. I like many Christians I know, hold on dearly to the belief in an after-life and in the message of salvation that can be found in the New Testament. We read the OT scripture primarily for its historic value but we do not attempt to apply ALL of the messages of the Old Testament to our lives literally.

Contrary to your beliefs or rantings, whichever actually applies, not ALL Christians follow a literal interpretation blindly like sheep. I often question that which I do not fully understand and welcome alternative interpretations. However, I resent being placed in ONE category with ALL Christians or those who claim to be. Surely you realize there are hundreds and hundreds of Protestant denominations alone. Do you know WHY there are so many? It comes down to basic interpretation of Biblical Doctrine.

Perhaps you should spend less time researching travesties, hypocricies, and faults of the Bible (of which I agree many examples can be found) and spend more time researching various Christian denominations and how their interpretations of scripture differ. Stop limiting the scope of your own observations by placing a generic tag on ALL who follow the teachings of Christ.

 

[tecoyah]

Yes, these fundies that like to pretend they idolize everything Christ stood for, are in fact, the very own people Jesus was rebelling against. These same people, if they claim that the bible isn't to be taken literally,(most fundies do anyway) well if that's the case, then it's morals support wife beating, sex slaves, stoning people, murder, lies, rape, and numerous other atrocities. When you read the bible, and understanding it is vastly different from just reading it, you come to the cold conclusion that god is just your average, symptomatically hesitant diety, who is sketched as a assassin of people, or anything for that matter, who refuses to bend over for him.:lol:

I know what you mean....almost made me want to stay Christian when I read all the cool stuff we got to do........then they told me I couldnt eat Lobster....I was like....well F@CK THIS!!!!!

 

[kal-el]

Secondly, I still believe that the primary weakness of your arguments does not lie in your interpretation of Old Testament scripture (you appear to be either quite knowledgeable of Biblical lore or are good at internet search queries) but in your OVERALL UNDERSTANDING of Modern Christian Faith.

Actually, I understnad it quite well, for your information, I used to be a Christian. I just have a hard time comprehending why people adulate such a pschyo, genocidal diety. If you read the OT in deph, one can easily come to this conclusion. If you don't, it's either because you refuse to believe that what you worship is so terrible and has faults, or you simply make excuses for his killing sprees and hissy fits. On the other hand, if someone still claims that he is a loving god, they may be right, but only to people who kiss his ass. Obviously, these people are apprenticed on the bible.

You still seem to be operating under the assumption that ALL Christians interpret scripture in the SAME way and defend all Biblical Accounts as perfect.

Well, according to the bible, yes they are. And if Christians interpret them differently, that just goes to show that there bible is nothing but a book of legends, hardly infallible.

I am knowledgeable enough to know that the Bible has undergone many translations through several different languages since the original books were written. I realize that each translation has resulted in some information being deleted and some extraneous info being added. I'm aware that there are many words and phrases which cannot be literally translated from Hebrew to Greek to English. Therefore, the translations we are left with must be considered far from perfect. I agree, many Christians may not admit this, but I'm not one of those.

The OT was mostly written in Hebrew, and some in Aramaic. The OT is divided into 3 sections, The Torah, the prophets, and the latter prophets. The NT was first written in Greek as at that time, Alexander the Great conqeured the whole area and made Greek the official language. Of course the bible has undergone many translations, as they didn't have printing presses, scribes had to copy the scripture by hand, which basically took a better part of their lives. So, if it was once the word of a perfect god, I highly doubt it is now, being that it has undergone numerous translations by fallible transcribers who included verses which fit into their worldviews.

At some point in your life you must come to the understanding that by stereotyping ALL Christians and thier beliefs about scripture your arguments simply begin to take on the tone of a bitter atheist. If you truly want to be helpful or informative, stop making such generalizations and understand that there are many Christians who read scripture for the POSITIVE messages and the HOPE that much of the Bible briings to them.

Yes, I really don't see much of a point bashing, when I'm perfectly equipped to speak scripture. I can relate to Christians, even though I do not hold the same belief.

For many it simply gives their life meaning and spiritual guidance in a morally tumultuous world. I like many Christians I know, hold on dearly to the belief in an after-life and in the message of salvation that can be found in the New Testament. We read the OT scripture primarily for its historic value but we do not attempt to apply ALL of the messages of the Old Testament to our lives literally.

Yes, well in the bible it states that all scripture is god-breathed. If you don't accept the whole bible, I'd say you don't believe it's the word of god.

Contrary to your beliefs or rantings, whichever actually applies, not ALL Christians follow a literal interpretation blindly like sheep. I often question that which I do not fully understand and welcome alternative

Ok, well do you believe in the Noah's ark drunken fiasco? What about the prophet Jonah being swallowed by a fish? Jesus did, I don't think anyone would want to argue with the defunct carpenter.:lol:

However, I resent being placed in ONE category with ALL Christians or those who claim to be. Surely you realize there are hundreds and hundreds of Protestant denominations alone. Do you know WHY there are so many? It comes down to basic interpretation of Bible.

Sure, that's my point. Being is there's so many denominations under a certain religion, that just begs me to ask a certain question, why would a loving god place the truth in just 1 denomination?

Perhaps you should spend less time researching travesties, hypocricies, and faults of the Bible (of which I agree many examples can be found) and spend more time researching various Christian denominations and how their interpretations of scripture differ. Stop limiting the scope of your own observations by placing a generic tag on ALL who follow the teachings of Christ.

Actually, you could hardly call this "research" when all I have to do is re-read the OT. Why would I want to research different Chrisitian denominations? I already said I'd be perfectly willing to just debate scripture.

 

[ChristopherHall]

Wow, are you a god apologetic now? Under that guise he can commit numerous atrocities, but they're all fine and dandy because "it's his divine perogative." I guess it was his perogative for killing his prophets for believing his lies, or punishing the Israelities for their father's sins, or that he will slaughter innocents for their parents crimes?

God is a creator and sees things quite differently than we do. We belong to God in both life and death so taking life means little to God. God is like an artist or a geneticist and man is like clay or a cloned creation. If an artist decides to discard, shatter, or crush a clay pot is it not his right to do so? If a geneticist clones a lamb and discovers that it is developing abnormally does he not have the right to destroy it? Man is God's creation and thereby is God's property.

Often people accuse God of attrocities because they violate established moral laws such as "Thou shalt not kill." But let's take a close look at this. God gave the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill.", to man. Why? Because only God is all knowing and just enough to know when is the right time to take life. If a man kills another man that man is in a sense "playing God" with another man's existance. God's Laws apply to man. Therefore God is above His own Law and can act in full authority as he feels is necessary. Also God often acts on knowledge we do not have. God may smite Jerry Falwell with a massive heart attack next week and all of Christianity wonder "why"....but God knows what we do not know...perhaps in God's omniscience God knew that Falwell would say something inflamatory that would ignite untold violence throughout the Muslim world. So in taking Falwell's life based on foreknowledge God was not committing a crime...God was actually being just. When God ordered the destruction of a people or individuals or when God himself smote them...God did so based entirely upon his foreknowledge of what would be just and using full authority to do what was necessary.

That is of course...if God exists. I believe that he does.

 

[kal-el]

God is a creator and sees things quite differently than we do.

Obviously. We view killing, and using threats and violence to get our way as bad.

We belong to God in both life and death sotaking life means little to God.

Haha, well said.:lol:

God is like an artist or a geneticist and man is like clay or a cloned creation. If an artist decides to discard, shatter, or crush a clay pot is it not his right to do so? If a geneticist clones a lamb and discovers that it is developing abnormally does he not have the right to destroy it? Man is God's creation and thereby is God's property.

Yep, if his "property" stays from his presence, to adulate false gods, he will kill their children:

Jeremiah 16:10-11
When you tell these people all this and they ask you, "Why has the lord decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the lord our god?" Then say to them, "It is because your fathers forsook me", declares the lord, "and followed other gods and served and worshipped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law."

Often people accuse God of attrocities because they violate established moral laws such as "Thou shalt not kill." But let's take a close look at this. God gave the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill.", to man. Why? Because only God is all knowing and just enough to know when is the right time to take life.

Yep, in most cases only god can kill, and he brags about it often:

Jeremiah 44:2
This is what the lord almighty, the god of Israel says, "You saw the great disaster I brought on Jerusalem and on all the towns of Judah. Today they lie deserted and in ruins because of the evil they have done. They provoked me to anger by burning insence and by worshipping other gods that neither they nor your fathers knew.

If a man kills another man that man is in a sense "playing God" with another man's existance.

Yes, that's why I am firmly opposed to the death penalty.

God's Laws apply to man. Therefore God is above His own Law and can act in full authority as he feels is necessary.

Obviously, he makes habit of breaking them often.

Also God often acts on knowledge we do not have. God may smite Jerry Falwell with a massive heart attack next week and all of Christianity wonder "why"....but God knows what we do not know...perhaps in God's omniscience God knew that Falwell would say something inflamatory that would ignite untold violence throughout the Muslim world. So in taking Falwell's life based on foreknowledge God was not committing a crime...God was actually being just. When God ordered the destruction of a people or individuals or when God himself smote them...God did so based entirely upon his foreknowledge of what would be just and using full authority to do what was necessary.

I guess god was being just when he killed 2 of Aaron's sons for offering strange fire, or when he killed all the Ehyptian firstborn.

That is of course...if God exists. I believe that he does.

That's great.

 

[ChristopherHall]

Obviously. We view killing, and using threats and violence to get our way as bad.

To God, killing is merely pulling a bad actor off the stage of history. In addition God doesn't "threaten"...he offers sincere and stern warnings.

Yep, if his "property" stays from his presence, to adulate false gods, he will kill their children:

Yes. From an eternal perspective it would be better to take said children from life while innocent that they might live in Heaven than to allow the children to live and enter the sins of their fathers only to die alienated from God and earning an eternity in Hell.

Yep, in most cases only god can kill, and he brags about it often:

Not bragging. Warning and reminding.

Yes, that's why I am firmly opposed to the death penalty.

I can respect that.

Obviously, he makes habit of breaking them often.

He's not breaking them seeing that they were given to men to obey.

I guess god was being just when he killed 2 of Aaron's sons for offering strange fire, or when he killed all the Ehyptian firstborn.

In regards to Aaron's sons, God was eliminating the spiritual error form the midst of his people and forever establishing a precedent that he doesn't tolerate rebellion.

In regards to the Egyptian firstborn, it was merciful for God to spare them from becoming full participants in Egypt's rebellion against God. The pain was not felt by the children who entered eternity at the hands of the angel, rather the pain was felt by the Egyptians in that God had taken his blessing, their firstborn, from them. The grief of loosing God's precious gift was the real punishment.

That's great.

He's great.

 

[tryreading]

I do want to point out, even though I have also been part of it, this thread has deviated some. My concern was not "god in government" more so it was about the desire and influence of the "Christian Right" in American society, not limited to the political sphere only.

I think that the Christian Right is presenting a very sanitized form of religious observance, nice suits, spotless elegant backdrops. The struggle now is to pass laws preventing same-sex marriage, and other issues where the listener/witness can just sit back and say 'they're right, I'll vote for their man.' The emergency is to 'save' Terri Schiavo. The current goal is to have ID taught in science class. Some of these endeavors seem misplaced to me. And these issues are a matter of paperwork, clean and easy, without any real caring involved.

 

[kal-el]

To God, killing is merely pulling a bad actor off the stage of history.

And he does that often. Again that's a bit like implying that we are just a bunch of powerless paws in some sort of divine game being played out.

In addition God doesn't "threaten"...he offers sincere and stern warnings.

O man, in that case in Hosea 4:13, god issues stern warnings to people who misbehave that he will make their daughters whores, and their wives will commit adultery. And Exodus 22:24 states that if you **** god off, he will kill you and your family, and in Exodus 4:23 god issues a stern warning to kill Pharoah's son. Sounds like threatening to me.

Yes. From an eternal perspective it would be better to take said children from life while innocent that they might live in Heaven than to allow the children to live and enter the sins of their fathers only to die alienated from God and earning an eternity in Hell.

How can hell be so bad? A Loving god created it? He surely wouldn't torment innocents eternally for their crimes committed during a finite lifetime? That doesn't sound so loving to me.

Not bragging. Warning and reminding.

Ha, god admits that he does bad things, (Jer.18:11), and he'll laugh as he kills heathen (Psalms 59:8). This doesn't sound like warning and reminding. It's strange the excuses you can think up, and at the same time, choose not to see all the cruelites, absurdities, and egotistical traits of your skydaddy.

He's not breaking them seeing that they were given to men to obey.

O, so he's above his very own laws. Do not ask of others what you're not willing to do.

In regards to Aaron's sons, God was eliminating the spiritual error form the midst of his people and forever establishing a precedent that he doesn't tolerate rebellion.

And all this using Nadab and Abihu as an example. This petty diety killed them because of the trivial reason of giving an offering with unauthorized fire.

In regards to the Egyptian firstborn, it was merciful for God to spare them from becoming full participants in Egypt's rebellion against God. The pain was not felt by the children who entered eternity at the hands of the angel, rather the pain was felt by the Egyptians in that God had taken his blessing, their firstborn, from them. The grief of loosing God's precious gift was the real punishment.

Wow, you are able to think yourself through a corkscrew without bending, right? I'm speechless at the excuses you can muster up to cover up this murderous diety's acts.:lol:

He's great.

Negative. Would you call a cold-blooded killer, narcistic, womanizer, slave advocate, emotional entity great?

 

[ChristopherHall]

And he does that often. Again that's a bit like implying that we are just a bunch of powerless paws in some sort of divine game being played out.

Not powerless, just not as powerful.

O man, in that case in Hosea 4:13, god issues stern warnings to people who misbehave that he will make their daughters whores, and their wives will commit adultery. And Exodus 22:24 states that if you **** god off, he will kill you and your family, and in Exodus 4:23 god issues a stern warning to kill Pharoah's son. Sounds like threatening to me.

I was in the Army for 8 years. If something is endangering national interests and diplomacy is failing...often threats of military force are necessary. Threats are not always evil nor wrong. Don't be such a pansy. A threat is often needed and the only thing worse than a threat is a threat a person unwilling to act upon if needed.

Think of the Kingdom of God being thwarted by a bunch of idolatrous hairless monkeys. So God threatens them...and destroys them as needed to advance and preserve the Kingdom of Heaven. God is a sovereign King.

How can hell be so bad? A Loving god created it? He surely wouldn't torment innocents eternally for their crimes committed during a finite lifetime? That doesn't sound so loving to me.

Hell was not made for man:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. However, men may rebel against God and thereby choose to go there.

Ha, god admits that he does bad things, (Jer.18:11), and he'll laugh as he kills heathen (Psalms 59:8). This doesn't sound like warning and reminding. It's strange the excuses you can think up, and at the same time, choose not to see all the cruelites, absurdities, and egotistical traits of your skydaddy.

Yes...often God is a valiant, all powerful, King at War.

Psalm 24:8
Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

There is a war taking place against the armies of Hell and the Kingdom of God. Both are waring over men's souls. You have to be a man and choose which side you're on instead of whining about it.

O, so he's above his very own laws. Do not ask of others what you're not willing to do.

God's Laws apply to man. God is a sovereign King with the authority and power to do as he chooses and deal with his enemies as he sees fit. God is no weak kneed, slack jawed politician or president.

And all this using Nadab and Abihu as an example. This petty diety killed them because of the trivial reason of giving an offering with unauthorized fire.

Yes...God is severe. His Law is His Law. If you think God was tough on them in this life...you aint seen nothing yet. These men committed high treason against the Law of God. They were trained and schooled in the Law of the Lord yet they did this. It wasn't by accident. It was an act of treating God's commands as being trivial and unnecessary...so God used them as an example. I think they got what was coming to them.

Wow, you are able to think yourself through a corkscrew without bending, right? I'm speechless at the excuses you can muster up to cover up this murderous diety's acts.:lol:

War is hell. And this war is far greater than any war ever faught by human hands.

Negative. Would you call a cold-blooded killer, narcistic, womanizer, slave advocate, emotional entity great?

God's at war. Stop whining and pick a side.

 

[kal-el]

Not powerless, just not as powerful.

My apologies, I Just seen your reply. Well, if he is so powerful, iron chariots must be his achilees heel.:lol:

I was in the Army for 8 years.

Congratulations.

If something is endangering national interests and diplomacy is failing...often threats of military force are necessary. Threats are not always evil nor wrong. Don't be such a pansy. A threat is often needed and the only thing worse than a threat is a threat a person unwilling to act upon if needed.

Now you're comparing human actions (threats) to godly actions. And threats don't seem to coinside with omnibenevolence.

Think of the Kingdom of God being thwarted by a bunch of idolatrous hairless monkeys. So God threatens them...and destroys them as needed to advance and preserve the Kingdom of Heaven. God is a sovereign King.

Yes, but his very own creation does not deserve to constantly be reminded that their creator will kill them and all their children if they refuse to adulate him. This is the ideal defintion of terrorism- using threats and violence to get one's way.

Hell was not made for man:

Then why send any man there? And if god is omnipresent, then what's the difference between heaven and earth? If people think they will be next to god in heaven, if he's omnipresent, their next to him now!:lol:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hahahaha, if this god is perfect, as some wish to pretend, then he created the devil with the knowledge that he would become pure evil. So, in conclusion, I'd have to say this fellow must be either straight up stupid (didn't know Satan would turn), impotent (not able to destroy Satan), or baleful (not wanting the best for his creation, doesn't give a **** about some). Or god din't create Satan, and this is a contradictory statement of Isaiah 45:7.

Leveticus 26:16-
then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and waste away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you wil rule over you, and you will flee when noone is pursing you. If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like ironand the ground beneath you like bronze. Your strenght will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield it's crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit. If you remain hostile towards me and refuse to listen to me, I will mutliply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. In spite of these things you do not accept my correction, but continue to be hostile towards me, I myself will be hostile towards you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.

And this list of threats goes on. Geese, it seems to me like I would rather be cast into hell than suffer the wrath of an angry diety. How can hell be that bad anyway, the devil seems pretty hip, not some douchebag like this "god" fellow. Who kills people for not believing his lies, and punishes children for the shortcomings of their elders, and kills for trivial reasons like kids making fun of one of his prophet's baldness.:lol:

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. However, men may rebel against God and thereby choose to go there.

If he is omniscient, he would know our choices, and being omnipotent can stop them, but it seems he permits some to be tortured eternally, so he's not omnibenevolent.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason, god sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have not delighted in wickedness.

So it seems we don't haver a choice in the matter, it seems this fellow not only lies, but purposely condemnes people to hell.

Yes...often God is a valiant, all powerful, King at War.

That goes without saying...

Psalm 24:8
Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

Judges 1:19
The lord was with the men of Judah. They took possesion of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the peole from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

There is a war taking place against the armies of Hell and the Kingdom of God. Both are waring over men's souls. You have to be a man and choose which side you're on instead of whining about it.

Uhh, it's not much of a choice, considering that god will kill those who hate him, and the fact that if you don't do as he says, he'll destroy you. So, where's the choice?

God's Laws apply to man.

Yup, this superficial diety is in the habit of asking us to do what he isn't willing or able to do, why call him god then?

God is a sovereign King with the authority and power to do as he chooses and deal with his enemies as he sees fit.

Yep, I guess he saw fit to command the Israelites to stone a man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? I guess he sees it fit to slaughter innocents for their parent's crimes, and I guess he saw it fit to give assistence to Asa and kill 1 million Eithiopians.

God is no weak kneed, slack jawed politician or president.

Ahhh.. duh. I'm curios, where did I assert that?

Yes...God is severe.

Wow, I'm glad you're finally opening your eyes.:lol:

His Law is His Law.

And Moses'.

If you think God was tough on them in this life...you aint seen nothing yet.

Wow, you're taking right after this "god" fellow. Utilizing threats.

These men committed high treason against the Law of God.

No, not all. He killed innocents for the shortcomings of their parents. The bible mentions them as "innocents", so they very well could not have committed high treason.

They were trained and schooled in the Law of the Lord yet they did this.

Did what? Innocents didn't do anything to deserve to be slaughtered.

It wasn't by accident.

Of course it wasn't, he's omniscient, remember?

It was an act of treating God's commands as being trivial and unnecessary...so God used them as an example.

An example of how unfair he can be. I guess you already have 1 foot in the coffin if your elders commited abhorent acts, which you not even being thought of, had no power to stop them.

I think they got what was coming to them.

Wow, you're severly brainwashed.

War is hell. And this war is far greater than any war ever faught by human hands.

What war are we talking about here? O, right, you're imaginary war between god and Satan, if there is a war, that disproves omniscience- as he knows Satan will rebel, omnipotence, has the power to stop it, but don't.

God's at war. Stop whining and pick a side.

We do not have free will to pick. As an omniscient entity, he already knows what side we are going to choose, so to us, it seems like we have free will, but to the creator who already knows prior what we are going to do, there's no way we can do otherwise. It's a bit like saying if you go back in the past and record all my moves the entire day, and then that day comes, I think I have free will to do whatever, but I must do what I did prior.

 

[black wolf]

...We do not have free will to pick. As an omniscient entity, he already knows what side we are going to choose, so to us, it seems like we have free will, but to the creator who already knows prior what we are going to do, there's no way we can do otherwise. It's a bit like saying if you go back in the past and record all my moves the entire day, and then that day comes, I think I have free will to do whatever, but I must do what I did prior.

There is no reasonable way to claim omniscience of God. God frequently shows anger, right? Well, this anger is caused by an element of surprise - why would he be angry if he knew all along what was coming? Apologetics are a system of bending principles of logic and reason, nothing more.