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The Challenge of Marxism

Individualism

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Good evening,

As an Eastern European whose family seen the horrors of communism which is based on the ideas of a self-hating drunk, Karl Marx, I found this article one of the best:

The Challenge of Marxism - Quillette

I advise everyone with an IQ over 100 to read the full text.

I might add that this idea of marxism also brings out the reaction of ultra-nationalism that is as toxic.

I will end with a question:

Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
 

NotreDame

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Good evening,

As an Eastern European whose family seen the horrors of communism which is based on the ideas of a self-hating drunk, Karl Marx, I found this article one of the best:

The Challenge of Marxism - Quillette

I advise everyone with an IQ over 100 to read the full text.

I might add that this idea of marxism also brings out the reaction of ultra-nationalism that is as toxic.

I will end with a question:

Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
My goodness. There hasn’t been a Marxist economy to exist as a national economy anywhere on the planet. The Soviet Union has elements of Marx’s economic but they did not have a Marxist economy.

Neirher is anyone in the U.S. advocating for Marxism. Sox how does the author navigate this paradox? By reinventing the meaning of Marxism.

”Marxist” in a broad sense to refer to any political or intellectual movement that is built upon Marx’s general framework as I’ve just described it.”

You and the article are attacking something less than Marxism, a loose meaning of Marxism that is “built upon Marx’s general framework.” The hell it is!

To constitute as Marxist and Marxism, then it IS based on Marx’s framework as detailed in his work “Manifesto of the Communist Party.”




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Eddiehaskell

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Good evening,

As an Eastern European whose family seen the horrors of communism which is based on the ideas of a self-hating drunk, Karl Marx, I found this article one of the best:

The Challenge of Marxism - Quillette

I advise everyone with an IQ over 100 to read the full text.

I might add that this idea of marxism also brings out the reaction of ultra-nationalism that is as toxic.

I will end with a question:

Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
Incredibly interesting topic that I need time to process. But I will surely read it.
 

D_NATURED

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What tripe. Even after 40 years of America's slide into fascism, the right is still crying the McCarthyism paranoia. Incredible.

Communism has never, and could never be, realized. Anybody on the left who believes in it is naive. Everybody on the right who seriously fears it is a rube. Every society who ever claimed to embody it was just a dictatorship.

The fascists, on the other hand, have actually flipped a few countries over the last hundred years. Their idea of using rabid nationalism, violence, fear and racism to control society has manifest in a few places. They cost MANY American lives. But where are the fascists being blacklisted today? On Twitter? Where are they being arrested and disappeared by communists? They're not. Give me a break. You're barking at the squirrel outside the window and ignoring the burglars at the back door.
 

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Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
It's simple really... Socialism on paper sounds wonderful and when you have teachers and professors advocating for it, to them it's a no brainer.

Younger people will blindly embrace the idea of socialism because a) they lack the life experience necessary to understand human behavior and how it runs counter to the socialist doctrine, and b) they were never taught the history of socialism in school and it's dismal record of world wide failure and human suffering every time it's been implemented.

.
 

Ikari

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What tripe. Even after 40 years of America's slide into fascism, the right is still crying the McCarthyism paranoia. Incredible.

Communism has never, and could never be, realized. Anybody on the left who believes in it is naive. Everybody on the right who seriously fears it is a rube. Every society who ever claimed to embody it was just a dictatorship.

The fascists, on the other hand, have actually flipped a few countries over the last hundred years. Their idea of using rabid nationalism, violence, fear and racism to control society has manifest in a few places. They cost MANY American lives. But where are the fascists being blacklisted today? On Twitter? Where are they being arrested and disappeared by communists? They're not. Give me a break. You're barking at the squirrel outside the window and ignoring the burglars at the back door.
It's an older fear monger, but it checks out.

lol

Yeah, the right loves to tote out ye' ol' Communists and Socialists Are Falling From the Sky fear tactics all the time. It's not new.
 

Helix

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good thing neither candidate is arguing for Marxism except in custom alternate realities.
 

NotreDame

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It's simple really... Socialism on paper sounds wonderful and when you have teachers and professors advocating for it, to them it's a no brainer.

Younger people will blindly embrace the idea of socialism because a) they lack the life experience necessary to understand human behavior and how it runs counter to the socialist doctrine, and b) they were never taught the history of socialism in school and it's dismal record of world wide failure and human suffering every time it's been implemented.

.
Maybe that’s because Socialism hasn’t existed as a national economy, but instead fascists and authoritarians falsely claimed to be socialists and to implement Socialism.

Socialism hasn’t caused the human suffering, the authoritarian leaders and government were the cause, while calling themselves, erroneously, Socialists.


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D_NATURED

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It's simple really... Socialism on paper sounds wonderful and when you have teachers and professors advocating for it, to them it's a no brainer.

Younger people will blindly embrace the idea of socialism because a) they lack the life experience necessary to understand human behavior and how it runs counter to the socialist doctrine, and b) they were never taught the history of socialism in school and it's dismal record of world wide failure and human suffering every time it's been implemented.

.
How are school children not warned about fascism? It is a much more real threat than socialism. At best, socialism stands to cost us some billionaires, some variety in our choices and the freedom to exploit each other. Fascism, on the other hand, is a living sickness inside our government that threatens our nation's very soul. Why, indeed, are children deprived that knowledge?

You think that maybe it's because the conservatives write the history taught to children in schools, by liberals? Oh, what a country.
 

armycowboy

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Honestly I don't think you can fill the Rose Bowl with true American Marxists.
 

Grim17

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Maybe that’s because Socialism hasn’t existed as a national economy, but instead fascists and authoritarians falsely claimed to be socialists and to implement Socialism.

Socialism hasn’t caused the human suffering, the authoritarian leaders and government were the cause, while calling themselves, erroneously, Socialists.


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That has been one of the excuses the left has used for decades to explain it's failure. Socialism will never work because human nature won't allow it to. Treating people the same, when we are all fundamentally different, just doesn't work.

Anyone who's interested in the true history of socialism, should watch this 2005 PBS miniseries called "Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism" :

 

NotreDame

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That has been one of the excuses the left has used for decades to explain it's failure. Socialism will never work because human nature won't allow it to. Treating people the same, when we are all fundamentally different, just doesn't work.

Anyone who's interested in the true history of socialism, should watch this 2005 PBS miniseries called "Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism" :

Oh has it been an excuse? Great. Then all you have to do is point me to the nation with a national economy qualifying as Socialism.


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Eddiehaskell

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Good evening,

As an Eastern European whose family seen the horrors of communism which is based on the ideas of a self-hating drunk, Karl Marx, I found this article one of the best:

The Challenge of Marxism - Quillette

I advise everyone with an IQ over 100 to read the full text.

I might add that this idea of marxism also brings out the reaction of ultra-nationalism that is as toxic.

I will end with a question:

Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
Perhaps we have such a divided society to help prevent us going too far towards any extreme. Both parties surely do everything possible to keep each other in check.

Tone the division politics down 20% in this country and democrats would be in deep doo doo nationally.
 

Nickyjo

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Read the article. Ridiculous.

Here's the reality. 1- capitalism does not work perfectly. 2- in the presence of the horrors of capitalism that prevailed at the time, Marx, influenced by other thinkers of his day and previous, comes up with a scientific analysis of why it cannot continue. 3- starting in the latter half of the 19th century, workers start to organize, often meeting with violent responses from governments and their police. 4- Soviet communism prevails in the east in the early 20th, caused partly by the massive idiocy that was WWI. 5- in the west in response to an economic crisis, workers of the world unite, though not in the way Marx imagined, helped by progressive movements that include liberals and socialists. By and large, communists are sidelined, tho they score points with some, thanks among other things, to their opposition to racial discrimination and imperialism. 6- liberals prevail in the US, liberals and socialists in Europe, with mixed economies producing extraordinary post WWII wealth. 7- with the excuse of 20 million dead in WWII, the Soviet Union enforces brutal rule in Eastern Europe with satellite governments, invading and/or crushing resistance in a number of countries. 8- the US, with the excuse of communism, enforces brutal rule in its hemisphere, invading and/or crushing resistance in a number of countries. 9- eventually, the Soviet Union, which the right said could not change, does, and its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe diminishes or evaporates. 10- eventually, the United States, which which the left said could not change, accepts progressive movements in its hemisphere with the Soviet bogeyman gone. 11- the world reverts to the pre-Marx normal with the two big dogs, Russia and the US at odds, much like the England/France or England/Spain rivalries which preceded it. 12- a new problem surfaces, corruption of Islam by a small number of extremists, which brings some of the panic that communism did.

Over simplistic analysis that leaves out a lot (China), naturally.

No one thought much about Marx after Lenin came to power in his name. Desperate Latin Americans, oppressed by Adam Smith's philosophy, studied him, but closed their books after the Cold War. Groucho probably has more influence than Karl these days.

To answer the OP's question, it is both idealism and pure propaganda that causes younger generations to consider these ideas. Idealism drives much of the BLM movement, the environmental movement, etc. Pure propaganda drives Antifa and some of Trump's extreme supporters.
 
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Eddiehaskell

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Good evening,

As an Eastern European whose family seen the horrors of communism which is based on the ideas of a self-hating drunk, Karl Marx, I found this article one of the best:

The Challenge of Marxism - Quillette

I advise everyone with an IQ over 100 to read the full text.

I might add that this idea of marxism also brings out the reaction of ultra-nationalism that is as toxic.

I will end with a question:

Is it idealism or pure propaganda that drives the younger generations to consider these ideas ?
Read the article. Ridiculous.

Here's the reality. 1- capitalism does not work perfectly. 2- in the presence of the horrors of capitalism that prevailed at the time, Marx, influenced by other thinkers of his day and previous, comes up with a scientific analysis of why it cannot continue. 3- starting in the latter half of the 19th century, workers start to organize, often meeting with violent responses from governments and their police. 4- Soviet communism prevails in the east in the early 20th, caused partly by the massive idiocy that was WWI. 5- in the west in response to an economic crisis, workers of the world unite, though not in the way Marx imagined, helped by progressive movements that include liberals and socialists. By and large, communists are sidelined, tho they score points with some, thanks among other things, to their opposition to racial discrimination and imperialism. 6- liberals prevail in the US, liberals and socialists in Europe, with mixed economies producing extraordinary post WWII wealth. 7- with the excuse of 20 million dead in WWII, the Soviet Union enforces brutal rule in Eastern Europe with satellite governments, invading and/or crushing resistance in a number of countries. 8- the US, with the excuse of communism, enforces brutal rule in its hemisphere, invading and/or crushing resistance in a number of countries. 9- eventually, the Soviet Union, which the right said could not change, does, and its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe diminishes or evaporates. 10- eventually, the United States, which which the left said could not change, accepts progressive movements in its hemisphere with the Soviet bogeyman gone. 11- the world reverts to the pre-Marx normal with the two big dogs, Russia and the US at odds, much like the England/France or England/Spain rivalries which preceded it. 12- a new problem surfaces, corruption of Islam by a small number of extremists, which brings some of the panic that communism did.

Over simplistic analysis that leaves out a lot (China), naturally.

No one thought much about Marx after Lenin came to power in his name. Desperate Latin Americans, oppressed by Adam Smith's philosophy, studied him, but closed their books after the Cold War. Groucho probably has more influence than Karl these days.

To answer the OP's question, it is both idealism and pure propaganda that causes younger generations to consider these ideas. Idealism drives much of the BLM movement, the environmental movement, etc. Pure propaganda drives Antifa and some of Trump's extreme supporters.
Wow Nick great read.
 

Whythink

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You all realize no credible politician wants socialism.

Yes, public education, universal Healthcare, and other safety nets have aspects of socialism but it isn't pure socialism.

The debate is, what is the role of government in the economy? What is the role of government in assisting those who are struggling?

Simply put, without aspects of socialism, we would have to allow people, including the elderly and children to die from homelessness and starvation. We would have to sit back and watch children not be educated (no public schools). We would have to allow people to die from illness because they can't afford to see a Dr or purchase medicine.

This already happens in rare instances. Without government having a role in will happen in large numbers. There is a legitimate argument that non-government agencies would pick up the slack. That is a huge risk with no guarantees.

Finding a balance between pure individual capitalism and a role for government to protect those struggling is not easy.

Unfortunately, leadership has chosen to divide us based on this instead of actually working towards solutions. Any negotiation will likely result in a primary challenge. Few will take that risk.

Once again, a complicated issue being simplified so we can create opponents we can call names.

Political Ideology: Crash Course Government and Politics #35 - YouTube

This is a real basic breakdown that doesn't paint either "side" as evil. Unlike the article that basically accuses more than 50% of the American people of being evil.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
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Individualism

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@NotreDame

What you fail to realize is that the marxist idea creates dictatorships because you can't fight human DNA in which we are programmed to compete. Although it might sell to the younger generations, some of us know the struggles of life and work. I don't know about you, but I don't work 12-18 hours/day in the private industry to just enjoy a minimalist life.

These ideas are often promoted by individuals that never produced or delivered a service. In the halls of certain academia areas the productivity is ZERO.

The definition of insanity is to try the same thing all over again expecting different results but I am sure you neo-marxists will make it different. All the best to you, the theory is flawed from my point of view.
 

Robertinfremont

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My goodness. There hasn’t been a Marxist economy to exist as a national economy anywhere on the planet. The Soviet Union has elements of Marx’s economic but they did not have a Marxist economy.

Neirher is anyone in the U.S. advocating for Marxism. Sox how does the author navigate this paradox? By reinventing the meaning of Marxism.

”Marxist” in a broad sense to refer to any political or intellectual movement that is built upon Marx’s general framework as I’ve just described it.”

You and the article are attacking something less than Marxism, a loose meaning of Marxism that is “built upon Marx’s general framework.” The hell it is!

To constitute as Marxist and Marxism, then it IS based on Marx’s framework as detailed in his work “Manifesto of the Communist Party.”




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Marx was a well known German with some remarkably kooky ideas.
 

Individualism

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You all realize no credible politician wants socialism.

Yes, public education, universal Healthcare, and other safety nets have aspects of socialism but it isn't pure socialism.

The debate is, what is the role of government in the economy? What is the role of government in assisting those who are struggling?

Simply put, without aspects of socialism, we would have to allow people, including the elderly and children to die from homelessness and starvation. We would have to sit back and watch children not be educated (no public schools). We would have to allow people to die from illness because they can't afford to see a Dr or purchase medicine.

This already happens in rare instances. Without government having a role in will happen in large numbers. There is a legitimate argument that non-government agencies would pick up the slack. That is a huge risk with no guarantees.

Finding a balance between pure individual capitalism and a role for government to protect those struggling is not easy.

Unfortunately, leadership has chosen to divide us based on this instead of actually working towards solutions. Any negotiation will likely result in a primary challenge. Few will take that risk.

Once again, a complicated issue being simplified so we can create opponents we can call names.

Political Ideology: Crash Course Government and Politics #35 - YouTube

This is a real basic breakdown that doesn't paint either "side" as evil. Unlike the article that basically accuses more than 50% of the American people of being evil.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
You are talking like there are soup kitchens all over North America and poverty is a national emercency.

In capitalism there are winners and losers.

That is how the game is being played.

Tomorrow I might lose too who knows ?

The key is to get up and try different ideas and the system in North America sure provides opportunities. If not here, where ?

It is hard is true, however I found, as an immigrant the key was to not listen to propagandatists and to stay away from idealism.

Idealism on both sides is a weakness that is being exploited by some very smart people to maintain power.

It is very easy to blame the system for not being productive enough and not being able to keep up and for sure marxism provides that platform.

Is a struggle to find a balance to some point.

Is true, there are certain individuals that need help however I disagree is a huge risk to allow non-governmental agencies more control or all "socialists" with high paying jobs should volunteer a 99 % tax for themselves. Plenty of them in the movie and entertainment industry.

Put your money where your mouth is. I for one, worked for every penny.
 
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Individualism

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It's an older fear monger, but it checks out.

lol

Yeah, the right loves to tote out ye' ol' Communists and Socialists Are Falling From the Sky fear tactics all the time. It's not new.
Some on the right that listen to Limbaugh or some other propagandist daily might, but some of us have legitimacy to talk about this. We had family that were indoctrinated to starve for the good of the people.

My grandma used to wait in line 2 hours to get a few eggs and some of the time none was left. You opened the fridge and there was no food but the library was full of Das Kapital. My grandma also used to tell me that militia member used to come and inspect the house. All in the name of equality. No class separation. The intellectual class was shut down in the name of equality. Isn't this happening in the universities already ? Workplaces ? Daily life ?

There is a another danger here as well. The rise of the abomination on the right. If you honestly think the average german woke up one day and decided to be a fascist you really do not possess critical thinking skills. The german people sold their soul to a criminal, Hitler. Why ? Fear. Fear can make an individual become a sheep and follow whoever is offering safety. Prior to WW2 communist mobs were doing what some protesters are doing right now, burning, looting and causing chaos. The SS was formed as a reaction. The middle class closed their eyes and we know the rest of the story.

I sure hope as society becomes more and more divided, we will all be able to mantain our individualism and not choose a side. Group thinking is responsible for the biggest atrocities in history.

Communists hate their country too much, Fascists love their country too much. When you do something too much it is always not good for you.
 

Whythink

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You are talking like there are soup kitchens all over North America and poverty is a national emercency.

In capitalism there are winners and losers.

That is how the game is being played.

Tomorrow I might lose too who knows ?

The key is to get up and try different ideas and the system in North America sure provides opportunities. If not here, where ?

It is hard is true, however I found, as an immigrant the key was to not listen to propagandatists and to stay away from idealism.

Idealism on both sides is a weakness that is being exploited by some very smart people to maintain power.

It is very easy to blame the system for not being productive enough and not being able to keep up and for sure marxism provides that platform.

Is a struggle to find a balance to some point.

Is true, there are certain individuals that need help however I disagree is a huge risk to allow non-governmental agencies more control or all "socialists" with high paying jobs should volunteer a 99 % tax for themselves. Plenty of them in the movie and entertainment industry.

Put your money where your mouth is. I for one, worked for every penny.
Much of what you said i agree with.

First, if not for, what some would argue as big government socialism, there would be a greater need for soup kitchens. Food stamps, subsidized housing, are key to preventing the need for soup kitchens all over.

Yes, capitalism guarantees "winners and losers". The social programs that some complain about all us to have capitalism and not have the lovers starving and dying in our streets.

I am 100% with you. I could be a "loser" economically without doing anything truly wrong (illegal). This is why I believe the social programs, (socialism) the government provides is so important.

I also earned every penny. I prefer to give some to the government to ensure the economic "losers" are cared for...

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Individualism

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Much of what you said i agree with.

First, if not for, what some would argue as big government socialism, there would be a greater need for soup kitchens. Food stamps, subsidized housing, are key to preventing the need for soup kitchens all over.

Yes, capitalism guarantees "winners and losers". The social programs that some complain about all us to have capitalism and not have the lovers starving and dying in our streets.

I am 100% with you. I could be a "loser" economically without doing anything truly wrong (illegal). This is why I believe the social programs, (socialism) the government provides is so important.

I also earned every penny. I prefer to give some to the government to ensure the economic "losers" are cared for...

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I understand you want to give individuals fish for one day after which they will continue to starve the next day.

My frame of thinking is to provide the fishing net, the tools so people can fish themselves.

It starts with self confidence and not listening to smart agitators that try to give individuals an excuse for their failures instead of encouraging to succeed.

It comes down to strength of character and independence.
 
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