The Caucasus is on fire again

[joluoto]

Armenia and Azerbaijan are at it again in Nagorno- Karakbakh

Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: Violence escalates in Nagorno-Karabakh

Let's hope it doesn't escalate into war. Both Armenia and the Azeris are mobilizing. And of course the Azeris have Turkish backing while the Armenians have Russian support. There has been many close calls recently when they have almost gone to war. Doesn't take much for the powder keg to explode.

 

[Godric1970]

Armenia and Azerbaijan are at it again in Nagorno- Karakbakh

Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: Violence escalates in Nagorno-Karabakh

Let's hope it doesn't escalate into war. Both Armenia and the Azeris are mobilizing. And of course the Azeris have Turkish backing while the Armenians have Russian support. There has been many close calls recently when they have almost gone to war. Doesn't take much for the powder keg to explode.

each side is blaming the other ... the Azeris get most of or if not all of their military tech from Russia .... Russia will not pick a side but they will tell both countries to stop the fighting they have already warned Armenia to de-escalate the situation .... Russia has military bases in Armenia so that Russia can keep the peace between both nations .... it wouldn't be advisable for Turkey to intervene they are already in conflict with several nations over gas exploration in the med and they have troops on the ground on both Libya and Syria .... and France threatened to Nuke the Turks if they carried out there threat to attack the Charles De Gaulle Aircraft Carrier

 

[NewfieMom]

I appreciated both postings in this thread. I knew little about this conflict. I appreciate being informed about it. The map below helped me.

 

[Godric1970]

I appreciated both postings in this thread. I knew little about this conflict. I appreciate being informed about it. The map below helped me.

Nagorno-Karabakh was a Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan proper it resulted in a civil war same thing happened with Georgia ... Ajaria, Abkhazia and South Ossettia were separate run states within the Russian empire and when the Soviets took power they decided to put all 4 regions into one SSR the Georgian SSR and when the Soviet Union broke up those areas did not want to be part of a independent Georgia they wanted their own countries again ... like in Georgia the the Armenian people in Nagorno-Karabakh did not want to be part of a independent Azerbaijan hence war broke out

 

[Roadvirus]

The Caucasus's own version of Kashmir. Oh goody. Just another way for 2 groups of human beings to justify killing one another.

Pathetic. Just split the area down the middle and be doe with it.

 

[Jean-s]

The Caucasus's own version of Kashmir. Oh goody. Just another way for 2 groups of human beings to justify killing one another.

Pathetic. Just split the area down the middle and be doe with it.

The problem is that Nagorno-Karabakh is part of Azerbaijan but the people there identify as Armenian. It can and should be settled with a peace plan which allows the people to exercise their Armenian identity within Azerbaijan with autonomy of some sort. The Armenians are outsiders but can play a responsible role if the Azeris are willing to find a compromise. Turkey should belt up. The Turks have done enough harm to the Armenians already.

 

[NewfieMom]

The Caucasus's own version of Kashmir. Oh goody. Just another way for 2 groups of human beings to justify killing one another.
Pathetic. Just split the area down the middle and be doe with it.

If your point is that this is a familiar problem, yes it is. People all over the world (and throughout much of history) have wanted self-determination. Whether it is the original northern Irish clashing with the Protestant people planted there or the Jews and the Arabs both of whom had ancient claims to a small piece of dessert in the Middle East, people get territorial. Sometimes problems between these groups can be negotiated, although it may take centuries. (I am thinking of northern Ireland now.) The jury is still out over Israel/Palestine. (After World War I many countries were slapped together by the Allied Powers. Yugoslavia was at peace under Tito, but once he died, it disintegrated and all the factions started to fight just as they had prior to World War I. Czechoslovakia, on the other hand, just peaceably separated into two parts.)

 

[beerftw]

Armenia and Azerbaijan are at it again in Nagorno- Karakbakh

Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: Violence escalates in Nagorno-Karabakh

Let's hope it doesn't escalate into war. Both Armenia and the Azeris are mobilizing. And of course the Azeris have Turkish backing while the Armenians have Russian support. There has been many close calls recently when they have almost gone to war. Doesn't take much for the powder keg to explode.

The armenians have russian and iranian support, iran is allied with both armenia and azerbaijan but views the latter as more out of need than like, as they are in competition with iran to be the main shia influence in the region.

Russia has military in armenia because turkey theatened to invade and conquer them, Iran has kept their economy going after turkey tried to shut them down economically by closing border activity.

 

[beerftw]

each side is blaming the other ... the Azeris get most of or if not all of their military tech from Russia .... Russia will not pick a side but they will tell both countries to stop the fighting they have already warned Armenia to de-escalate the situation .... Russia has military bases in Armenia so that Russia can keep the peace between both nations .... it wouldn't be advisable for Turkey to intervene they are already in conflict with several nations over gas exploration in the med and they have troops on the ground on both Libya and Syria .... and France threatened to Nuke the Turks if they carried out there threat to attack the Charles De Gaulle Aircraft Carrier

Russia has bases there, but not to keep peace between the two nations, but rather to keep turkey from invading armenia by injection a nuclear power into the mix, therefore making it unlikely america would back turkey as it would not want nuclear war over a squabble between nations, and turkey would not want to fight russia without american backing.

The entire idea was not to prevent armenia and azerbaijan from conflict, it was to be a deterrence to larger nations so they would not invade armenia(mostly against turkey)

 

[joluoto]

According to the Armenians the Turks have gotten involved, have shot down an Armenian plane. The last thing we need is Turkey and/ or Russia getting involved (or Iran for that matter).
Armenia says its fighter jet 'shot down by Turkey'

Merkel has called for peace.
Nagorno-Karabakh conflict: Germany's Merkel urges ceasefire as violence escalates

 

[joko104]

Why should we care? Let them kill each other to their heart's delight.

 

[Jean-s]

Why should we care? Let them kill each other to their heart's delight.

Peace-loving people think differently from you. The two countries are now at war and, as usual, children and civilians will do the suffering.

 

[joko104]

Peace-loving people think differently from you. The two countries are now at war and, as usual, children and civilians will do the suffering.

Not our concern. We are not the police of the world. If we involve, it will just add us killing civilians too.

 

[NewfieMom]

I have to say that the more posts I read, the more confused I become. I understand the desire of the ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh to have self-determination. The alliances of the other powers have me a bit confused, however. With the exception of France's desire to keep Turkey in line, nothing is clear to me. It sounds as if Iran has mixed loyalties and that although Russia does not want to see Turkey invade Armenia, that it is not allied with Armenia and has supplied military equipment to Azerbaijan. Does neither Iran nor Russia have a preference for Armenia or Azerbaijan?

 

[joluoto]

Why should we care? Let them kill each other to their heart's delight.

The Caucasus don't need a war, and we certainly don't need a war in the Caucasus. The region is of strategic importance for Russia, Iran and Turkey (which is a member of NATO). The region will also be of strategic importance for Europe because it might be possible to make a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus and Turkey, thus getting access to Turkmenistani natural gas in a way that bypasses both Russia and Iran.

And most of all, people are dying. Calls for peace is important. Merkel and Macron has already done that, so has Pompeo (because Trump couldn't bother with it).

 

[NewfieMom]

According to the Armenians the Turks have gotten involved, have shot down an Armenian plane. The last thing we need is Turkey and/ or Russia getting involved (or Iran for that matter).
Armenia says its fighter jet 'shot down by Turkey'

Merkel has called for peace.
Nagorno-Karabakh conflict: Germany's Merkel urges ceasefire as violence escalates

I just saw this. I was typing while you posted it, joluoto. Thank you for the update. I am very sorry that a shooting war has begun. I love Angela Merkel.

 

[joko104]

The Caucasus don't need a war, and we certainly don't need a war in the Caucasus. The region is of strategic importance for Russia, Iran and Turkey (which is a member of NATO). The region will also be of strategic importance for Europe because it might be possible to make a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus and Turkey, thus getting access to Turkmenistani natural gas in a way that bypasses both Russia and Iran.

And most of all, people are dying. Calls for peace is important. Merkel and Macron has already done that, so has Pompeo (because Trump couldn't bother with it).

Yeah sure, "call for peace." I'm all for that.

"Dear people of the Caucasus region,

Be nice.

Sincerely,

The United States of America."

 

[joluoto]

I have to say that the more posts I read, the more confused I become. I understand the desire of the ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh to have self-determination. The alliances of the other powers have me a bit confused, however. With the exception of France's desire to keep Turkey in line, nothing is clear to me. It sounds as if Iran has mixed loyalties and that although Russia does not want to see Turkey invade Armenia, that it is not allied with Armenia and has supplied military equipment to Azerbaijan. Does neither Iran nor Russia have a preference for Armenia or Azerbaijan?

Russia prefers Armenia and backed Armenia in the 90s, but also have investments in Azerbaijan. Azeri oil is still important for Russia. So Russia prefers Armenia but would really not like the Caucasus to explode. Iran also prefers Armenia, partly because their own Azeri population near the border, but can't be shown to favor Armenia too much openly, due to Armenia being Christian and Azerbaijan being fellow Muslims.

 

[SheWolf]

Armenia and Azerbaijan are at it again in Nagorno- Karakbakh

Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: Violence escalates in Nagorno-Karabakh

Let's hope it doesn't escalate into war. Both Armenia and the Azeris are mobilizing. And of course the Azeris have Turkish backing while the Armenians have Russian support. There has been many close calls recently when they have almost gone to war. Doesn't take much for the powder keg to explode.

With Turkey and Russia having so much debt interests on Trump, which side will he pick? Trump isn’t a strong leader when it comes to authoritarians. He will probably sit on the side lines because he is an owned man baby

 

[joluoto]

Yeah sure, "call for peace." I'm all for that.

"Dear people of the Caucasus region,

Be nice.

Sincerely,

The United States of America."

Believe it or not, since both Azerbaijan and Armenia are small countries, large, rich countries like the US, France and Germany do have some pull here. There are strings that can be pulled. Especially if we can get the regional powers: Russia, Turkey and Iran to decide there should be peace. Neither Baku nor Yerevan can really afford all these power turning away from them.

 

[joko104]

Believe it or not, since both Azerbaijan and Armenia are small countries, large, rich countries like the US, France and Germany do have some pull here. There are strings that can be pulled. Especially if we can get the regional powers: Russia, Turkey and Iran to decide there should be peace. Neither Baku nor Yerevan can really afford all these power turning away from them.

No, no buying peace. No more extortion money as those people have been killing each other for at least 3,000 years.

 

[NewfieMom]

With Turkey and Russia having so much debt interests on Trump, which side will he pick? Trump isn’t a strong leader when it comes to authoritarians. He will probably sit on the side lines because he is an owned man baby

He can always ask General Flynn, who has been a paid adviser to both Russia and Turkey, what he should do. If he cannot reach Flynn, his natural position would be to back Russia since he never says no to Vladimir Putin.

 

[joko104]

With Turkey and Russia having so much debt interests on Trump, which side will he pick? Trump isn’t a strong leader when it comes to authoritarians. He will probably sit on the side lines because he is an owned man baby

Over 90% of American war deaths have been under Democratic Party leadership. Of course the Democratic Party and most Democrats want us to get into a war in the Caucasus. Remember the massive profits the came from the sequence of War in the Caucasus leading to WW1 leading to WW2. There is no potential war the Democratic Party doesn't want.

Biden and Harris want us in war in Syria. Want us in war in the M.E. endlessly. To spend trillions more on the Cold War against the extinct USSR. They'd want hundreds of billions spend to defend against an invasion by the Mayan Empire if they could figure out how the propaganda pitch for it on the MSM and in the press they own and control. Obama bombed and attacked more countries than any president since WW2 - and deliberately turned Libya into a terrorism and insurgency killing zone - leading to chaos and Yemen and elsewhere.

The Democratic Party has always been the party of destruction, war and death. Other than non-white slave labor made products to replace losing owning their non-white slaves directly and being themselves the peasant-servants of the richest people on earth, there is nothing most Democrats love more than war and death.

 

[SheWolf]

Over 90% of American war deaths have been under Democratic Party leadership. Of course the Democratic Party and most Democrats want us to get into a war in the Caucasus. Remember the massive profits the came from the sequence of War in the Caucasus leading to WW1 leading to WW2. There is no potential war the Democratic Party doesn't want.

Biden and Harris want us in war in Syria. Want us in war in the M.E. endlessly. To spend trillions more on the Cold War against the extinct USSR. They'd want hundreds of billions spend to defend against an invasion by the Mayan Empire if they could figure out how the propaganda pitch for it on the MSM and in the press they own and control. Obama bombed and attacked more countries than any president since WW2 - and deliberately turned Libya into a terrorism and insurgency killing zone - leading to chaos and Yemen and elsewhere.

The Democratic Party has always been the party of destruction, war and death. Other than non-white slave labor made products to replace losing owning their non-white slaves directly and being themselves the peasant-servants of the richest people on earth, there is nothing most Democrats love more than war and death.

Democrats have a history of winning the wars they get involved in. And they don’t call the vets losers and suckers

 

[joluoto]

With Turkey and Russia having so much debt interests on Trump, which side will he pick? Trump isn’t a strong leader when it comes to authoritarians. He will probably sit on the side lines because he is an owned man baby

The US play book right now seem to be to let Pompeo take charge on this, since he did the official US reaction. This makes some sense, since there won't be any top level meetings right now due to Covid, there is no need to drag in Orange Man right now. However if there is to be a joint statement at some point with say Merkel, Macron and Putin, then Trump will have to be dragged in, or America looks weak. But who knows if that will happen.