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The Catholic Church and illogical comparisons

danarhea

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If the Vatican is trying to restore the impression that its moral sense is intact, issuing a document that equates pedophilia with the ordination of women doesn’t really do that.
I think this statement cuts right to the heart of the matter. How can a church that supported child molestation for all these years claim to be God's word on anything, especially the ordination of women? How many child molesters in this world are women? I would say quite a lot fewer than men, and orders of magnitude less than Catholic priests. Female priests? Sounds like an idea whose time has come. If not for the reputation of the church, then at least do it for the children.

Read the entire article here. It makes a lot of sense.
 
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Southern Belle

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The Pope is not the mediator between God and Man, Jesus is, the priests have no power to forgive sins, you cannot baptize infants because they are too young to choose to follow Jesus, Mary needed Jesus as her own savior and called him so, no work we do can possibly get us into heaven because one sin keeps us out and only innocent sacrifices cover sins, and Jesus paid the price for all. Paul wrote to Rome and was the Apostle of the Gentiles while Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. God is the only Father and no other man is to be called by that title. There is only one name under heaven whereby men shall be saved and that's Jesus, not Mary. And the saints are the Body of Christ and all the prophets, not random people chosen by humans based on human standards.
 

ashley.hunt60

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The Vatican has had a lot of moral blunders throughout the ages. I'm hopeful that they'll try to better themselves in the following years, if not just temporarily.
 

Josie

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The Pope is not the mediator between God and Man, Jesus is, the priests have no power to forgive sins, you cannot baptize infants because they are too young to choose to follow Jesus, Mary needed Jesus as her own savior and called him so, no work we do can possibly get us into heaven because one sin keeps us out and only innocent sacrifices cover sins, and Jesus paid the price for all. Paul wrote to Rome and was the Apostle of the Gentiles while Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. God is the only Father and no other man is to be called by that title. There is only one name under heaven whereby men shall be saved and that's Jesus, not Mary. And the saints are the Body of Christ and all the prophets, not random people chosen by humans based on human standards.
Welcome back to the board. I'm sort of new, but I think we're gonna get along just fine. I completely agree with everything you just said. :)
 

liblady

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The Pope is not the mediator between God and Man, Jesus is, the priests have no power to forgive sins, you cannot baptize infants because they are too young to choose to follow Jesus, Mary needed Jesus as her own savior and called him so, no work we do can possibly get us into heaven because one sin keeps us out and only innocent sacrifices cover sins, and Jesus paid the price for all. Paul wrote to Rome and was the Apostle of the Gentiles while Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. God is the only Father and no other man is to be called by that title. There is only one name under heaven whereby men shall be saved and that's Jesus, not Mary. And the saints are the Body of Christ and all the prophets, not random people chosen by humans based on human standards.
that's your belief, and you are welcome to it. however, it is NOT the belief of many christians.
 

liblady

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Welcome back to the board. I'm sort of new, but I think we're gonna get along just fine. I completely agree with everything you just said. :)
her characterization of catholics is false, as is yours.
 

danarhea

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her characterization of catholics is false, as is yours.
With all due respect, I disagree with you. The Catholic Church has not only brought us pedophile priests, but Torqumada and the Inquisition, in which many thousands of Jews and others were tortured to death, indulgences, praying to mortals, the belief that only through the Catholic Church can your sins be forgiven, the belief that a Pope can excommunicate you from the church and condemn you to hell, on his word alone, and many other blasphemies and heresies.

I do belive in God and Jesus, but I also have my problems with religion, mostly with the "my way or the highway to hell" approach that the Catholic church, and also many protestant churches use. Churches are quick to condemn, and have very few, if any, of the qualities that Christ taught. Let me give you two examples, one from my own life, and another in which scripture is taken out of context.

1) I am half Jewish and half Irish Catholic (a deadly combination - LOL), whose father became Protestant soon after I was born, so I was brought up protestant. My wife was brought up Catholic. When we went to get married, her priest refused to perform the ceremony unless I became Catholic. When I didn't, he attempted to get my wife to leave me, telling her that I was bound for hell, and would take her with me. My baptist minister refused to perform the ceremony, telling me that she was Catholic and was going to hell. We got married in a Christian Reformed Church. Both the Baptist and the Catholic clerics said our marriage would not last, because God was not in it (Damn hypocrites). 38 years later, our marriage is still going strong. Screw them!

2) Many Catholics and Protestants claim that Jews are going to hell, because they had to live by the law, and only grace can get you into heaven. This is also blasphemy. Why didn't they bother to understand that the books of the law handed down to Moses were kept inside the Holy of Holies, underneath the judgment seat of God? "Above the law" is very evident here, and shows the grace of God towards the Jewish people. Most of those who would deny the Jewish people their fair share of "heaven" are the same people who claim that the Jews killed Christ, although it was the Romans who did it.

God is great, but man is ignorant as hell, and shows that ignorance in a big way, through many of the various churches. Churches don't have to be opulent large gatherings inside of ornate buildings. Jesus said a church exists where 2 or more are gathered in his name. In a true church, the Pope, a minister, a rabbi, or what have you, do not intercede to God on your behalf. God gives his grace to all. Many of these self-righteous leaders are just not needed, and are even a "stumbling block" to salvation.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
 
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liblady

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With all due respect, I disagree with you. The Catholic Church has not only brought us pedophile priests, but Torqumada and the Inquisition, in which many thousands of Jews and others were tortured to death, indulgences, praying to mortals, the belief that only through the Catholic Church can your sins be forgiven, the belief that a Pope can excommunicate you from the church and condemn you to hell, on his word alone, and many other blasphemies and heresies.

I do belive in God and Jesus, but I also have my problems with religion, mostly with the "my way or the highway to hell" approach that the Catholic church, and also many protestant churches use. Churches are quick to condemn, and have very few, if any, of the qualities that Christ taught. Let me give you two examples, one from my own life, and another in which scripture is taken out of context.

1) I am half Jewish and half Irish Catholic (a deadly combination - LOL), whose father became Protestant soon after I was born, so I was brought up protestant. My wife was brought up Catholic. When we went to get married, her priest refused to perform the ceremony unless I became Catholic. When I didn't, he attempted to get my wife to leave me, telling her that I was bound for hell, and would take her with me. My baptist minister refused to perform the ceremony, telling me that she was Catholic and was going to hell. We got married in a Christian Reformed Church. Both the Baptist and the Catholic clerics said our marriage would not last, because God was not in it (Damn hypocrites). 38 years later, our marriage is still going strong. Screw them!

2) Many Catholics and Protestants claim that Jews are going to hell, because they had to live by the law, and only grace can get you into heaven. This is also blasphemy. Why didn't they bother to understand that the books of the law handed down to Moses were kept inside the Holy of Holies, underneath the judgment seat of God? "Above the law" is very evident here, and shows the grace of God towards the Jewish people. Most of those who would deny the Jewish people their fair share of "heaven" are the same people who claim that the Jews killed Christ, although it was the Romans who did it.

God is great, but man is ignorant as hell, and shows that ignorance in a big way, through many of the various churches. Churches don't have to be opulent large gatherings inside of ornate buildings. Jesus said a church exists where 2 or more are gathered in his name. In a true church, the Pope, a minister, a rabbi, or what have you, do not intercede to God on your behalf. God gives his grace to all. Many of these self-righteous leaders are just not needed, and are even a "stumbling block" to salvation.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.
also with all due respect...i was not defending the awful things that the catholic church has done. a few items she mentioned were priests being able to forgive sins.....catholics DO NOT believe a priest forgives their sins. catholics also DO NOT believe the pope is a "mediator".

for what it's worth, you had a bad priest. non catholics can marry catholics in the church NOW. i am no longer a catholic, but some people have misconceptions or prejudices based on lies. i've become a lutheran and enjoy my church, but i am not very hung up on doctrine. i love my pastor, she's great. the congregation is welcoming to all.
 

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I was in a hurry when I wrote that yesterday, but those were things I found straight out of the Bible, while reading it in my own time, that the Catholics go directly against, also that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So how does the Pope justify making up new rules on a whim? And something about the Catholic church has always creeped me out a bit. Why do they make you go into those dark boxes to confess your sins to a Priest? That doesn't even sound like the God I know. With him I can go out on a beautiful sunny day, look up at him and smile, and pray for forgivness and whatever else comes to mind without involving anyone else. Honestly, I can't figure out what God thinks of Catholics, because the organization does all that against the Bible, but I can't tell if it's an "other Jesus" that the deciples warned people to not heed. I guess it's between him and them, but that is what I've noticed.

As for me, I was raised Baptist with a strong Biblical foundation. Jesus is my Rock and I take the Bible's word above any church. I'm sorry the Baptist didn't act right to you Dana, but from the Bible and even church, I was always taught that God has not forgotten Israel. But, technically the Jews did crucify Jesus when they asked for the freedom of the murderer Barrabbas and yelled "Crucify Him" to Jesus. That was their hearts rejecting Him. But God is still in control and we are not supposed to hate Jews. (Or anyone else)
 

danarhea

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I was in a hurry when I wrote that yesterday, but those were things I found straight out of the Bible, while reading it in my own time, that the Catholics go directly against, also that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So how does the Pope justify making up new rules on a whim? And something about the Catholic church has always creeped me out a bit. Why do they make you go into those dark boxes to confess your sins to a Priest? That doesn't even sound like the God I know. With him I can go out on a beautiful sunny day, look up at him and smile, and pray for forgivness and whatever else comes to mind without involving anyone else. Honestly, I can't figure out what God thinks of Catholics, because the organization does all that against the Bible, but I can't tell if it's an "other Jesus" that the deciples warned people to not heed. I guess it's between him and them, but that is what I've noticed.

As for me, I was raised Baptist with a strong Biblical foundation. Jesus is my Rock and I take the Bible's word above any church. I'm sorry the Baptist didn't act right to you Dana, but from the Bible and even church, I was always taught that God has not forgotten Israel. But, technically the Jews did crucify Jesus when they asked for the freedom of the murderer Barrabbas and yelled "Crucify Him" to Jesus. That was their hearts rejecting Him. But God is still in control and we are not supposed to hate Jews. (Or anyone else)
Look, here is the deal with Barrabbas. He was a hero to the Jews. He killed an occupying Roman soldier. All Pilate did was play one end against the other. He gave them a choice of Jesus or their hero. Naturally, they chose their hero. The Romans killed Christ, not the Jews. The belief that the Jews did it comes straight from Satan himself, as the result of Pilate's Satanic trickery.
 
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Dogger807

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I think the thing that bothers me the most with the whole sex abuse thing is the impression I get from listening to their response. It seems the only reason the vatican is doing anything about it is because they got caught with their pants down. They seem totally devoid of remorse, they hardly even acknowledge their wrongdoings. A three year old told by his mother to apologize for hitting his sister would sound exactly the same.
 

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Pedaphiles are hardwired wrong. Or short-circuited somehow. I don't have a problem with the pedaphiles (well, of course, I do, but my meaning will be clear here), I have a problem with the people within the Catholic church who covered up their actions. Those who "sent the offenders along" to yet another parish to wreak havoc on still more children. Instead of calling 911. I cannot imagine why those people aren't in jail.

I have a problem with their charitable arm -- St. Vincent's DePaul -- who uses their charitable funds to send their more important volunteers on junkets all over the world.

They're the most inclusionary religion within Christianity. Lots more problems I have with the Catholic Church, but those are two biggies.
 

liblady

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I was in a hurry when I wrote that yesterday, but those were things I found straight out of the Bible, while reading it in my own time, that the Catholics go directly against, also that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. So how does the Pope justify making up new rules on a whim? And something about the Catholic church has always creeped me out a bit. Why do they make you go into those dark boxes to confess your sins to a Priest? That doesn't even sound like the God I know. With him I can go out on a beautiful sunny day, look up at him and smile, and pray for forgivness and whatever else comes to mind without involving anyone else. Honestly, I can't figure out what God thinks of Catholics, because the organization does all that against the Bible, but I can't tell if it's an "other Jesus" that the deciples warned people to not heed. I guess it's between him and them, but that is what I've noticed.

As for me, I was raised Baptist with a strong Biblical foundation. Jesus is my Rock and I take the Bible's word above any church. I'm sorry the Baptist didn't act right to you Dana, but from the Bible and even church, I was always taught that God has not forgotten Israel. But, technically the Jews did crucify Jesus when they asked for the freedom of the murderer Barrabbas and yelled "Crucify Him" to Jesus. That was their hearts rejecting Him. But God is still in control and we are not supposed to hate Jews. (Or anyone else)
the pope doesn't just change things "on a whim".......and i can go outside and do the same thing. it's always a problem when people get caught up in doctrine, and it sounds like you have. beware that, it's how people end up killing people in the name of religion. i KNOW god doesn't give a flip about your religion. he cares about your soul.
 

liblady

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Pedaphiles are hardwired wrong. Or short-circuited somehow. I don't have a problem with the pedaphiles (well, of course, I do, but my meaning will be clear here), I have a problem with the people within the Catholic church who covered up their actions. Those who "sent the offenders along" to yet another parish to wreak havoc on still more children. Instead of calling 911. I cannot imagine why those people aren't in jail.

I have a problem with their charitable arm -- St. Vincent's DePaul -- who uses their charitable funds to send their more important volunteers on junkets all over the world.

They're the most inclusionary religion within Christianity. Lots more problems I have with the Catholic Church, but those are two biggies.
damn that spelling thing, huh? btw, isn't inclusionary a good thing?
 

MaggieD

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Freudian!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!! EXclusionary.Too late to edit, I'm stuck with it.
 

liblady

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Freudian!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!! EXclusionary.Too late to edit, I'm stuck with it.

except "freudian" means you posted what you subconsciously thought. ;-) although i agree, the catholic church is pretty exclusionary.
 

digsbe

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Look, here is the deal with Barrabbas. He was a hero to the Jews. He killed an occupying Roman soldier. All Pilate did was play one end against the other. He gave them a choice of Jesus or their hero. Naturally, they chose their hero. The Romans killed Christ, not the Jews. The belief that the Jews did it comes straight from Satan himself, as the result of Pilate's Satanic trickery.
Technically according to Christian theology, we all killed Christ. It was the Romans who implemented the crucifixion and the Jews who called for it and demanded it. But Jesus willingly chose to die for us. Essentially all sinners (all people) killed Jesus, because we need his sacrifice to be forgiven. The whole "Jews are Christ killers" is foolish and those who advocate it don't understand what really happened at the cross themselves.
 

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Look, here is the deal with Barrabbas. He was a hero to the Jews. He killed an occupying Roman soldier. All Pilate did was play one end against the other. He gave them a choice of Jesus or their hero. Naturally, they chose their hero. The Romans killed Christ, not the Jews. The belief that the Jews did it comes straight from Satan himself, as the result of Pilate's Satanic trickery.
It was the Jewish leaders that plotted against Christ and wanted him crucified. They had gotten full of pride about their titles and Jesus was doing things God's way, not theirs. They didn't recognise him as their messiah. They didn't know who he was, that's the point. I'm not the best at putting it into words but the OT and NT fit together so perfectly.
 

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the pope doesn't just change things "on a whim".......and i can go outside and do the same thing. it's always a problem when people get caught up in doctrine, and it sounds like you have. beware that, it's how people end up killing people in the name of religion. i KNOW god doesn't give a flip about your religion. he cares about your soul.
The Bible says true religion is visiting Widows and orphans. If you're positive that you know what God thinks, all right. I am, and I love him for it. :)
 

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Technically according to Christian theology, we all killed Christ. It was the Romans who implemented the crucifixion and the Jews who called for it and demanded it. But Jesus willingly chose to die for us. Essentially all sinners (all people) killed Jesus, because we need his sacrifice to be forgiven. The whole "Jews are Christ killers" is foolish and those who advocate it don't understand what really happened at the cross themselves.
Thank you, you said it better than me. I agree with that. I don't go around calling Jews Christ-killers because it doesn't matter really, and plus you're not supposed to even do that! I don't believe in replacement theology and I don't believe he has forgotten his chosen people. Jesus had to come through someone and die for everyone, and God chose Abraham. :)
 

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I think this statement cuts right to the heart of the matter. How can a church that supported child molestation for all these years claim to be God's word on anything, especially the ordination of women? How many child molesters in this world are women? I would say quite a lot fewer than men, and orders of magnitude less than Catholic priests. Female priests? Sounds like an idea whose time has come. If not for the reputation of the church, then at least do it for the children.

Read the entire article here. It makes a lot of sense.
This is purely an opinion, but in my mind from a christian perspective, catholicism has been a blight on this planet and to christianity.

In every possible way catholicism contradicts the biblical teachings. Jesus says "don't repeat words like those of the nations, for they are empty", Catholicism is based on repeating words.

Paul said "a time would come when they will forbid to marry", catholics forbid to marry. They pray to Mary, who for some reason they think is interceding from heaven, instead of waiting for the resurrection like everyone else.

I don't get it, its like the entire religion is based on contradicting the message of Jesus and trying to meld Judaism into christian philosophy.
 

Geo Patric

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technically the Jews did crucify Jesus when they asked for the freedom of the murderer Barrabbas and yelled "Crucify Him" to Jesus.
not hate the jews that tortured yer god? very broad minded of you. but no, technically, "the jews" did not kill jesus. Jesus of Nazareth died on a crucifix, a device of torture and death devised and implemented by Rome. Jesus was escorted to the hilltop not by jewish soldiers (there were none) but by Roman soldiers. He was nailed to the cross by romans, romans gambled for his possessions and romans dispersed the crowd. when he complained of thirst, he was tormented by romans. when it became clear that he would not die before sunset the night before Shabbat, he was run through with a spear by Romans to speed up the process. he was removed from the cross by romans.

he was prepared for burial and buried by jews.

you say you read the book but still believe the misrepresentations taught to you by anti-semitic, ignorant fundamentalists. shame. if there is a god and he gave you the brain in your head, consider that he may have had reasons other then to keep yer ears from whistling as the wind passes through.

and think about what you read... consider... the episode to which you refer is reported in the gospel of john... the only non-jew among the gospel writers who had an obvious antagonism for the leadership of the palestinian jewish community of the time who had the bad taste to suggest that Johns teachings were anathema... which of course, to any observant jew, they were.

geo.o.
 
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SingleCellOrganism

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I would go one step further and say we basically all crucified Jesus, from a metaphorical standpoint (generalizing here) have been in mob-mentality, hated someone who was being righteous etc. etc.

To blame a specific group is to miss the point.

From a philosophical standpoint, in the context of the story, all of us are responsible.
 

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not hate the jews that tortured yer god? very broad minded of you. but no, technically, "the jews" did not kill jesus. Jesus of Nazareth died on a crucifix, a device of torture and death devised and implemented by Rome. Jesus was escorted to the hilltop not by jewish soldiers (there were none) but by Roman soldiers. He was nailed to the cross by romans, romans gambled for his possessions and romans dispersed the crowd. when he complained of thirst, he was tormented by romans. when it became clear that he would not die before sunset the night before Shabbat, he was run through with a spear by Romans to speed up the process. he was removed from the cross by romans.

he was prepared for burial and buried by jews.

you say you read the book but still believe the misrepresentations taught to you by anti-semitic, ignorant fundamentalists. shame. if there is a god and he gave you the brain in your head, consider that he may have had reasons other then to keep yer ears from whistling as the wind passes through.

and think about what you read... consider... the episode to which you refer is reported in the gospel of john... the only non-jew among the gospel writers who had an obvious antagonism for the leadership of the palestinian jewish community of the time who had the bad taste to suggest that Johns teachings were anathema... which of course, to any observant jew, they were.

geo.o.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you seriously have no idea what you are saying. I do not blame the Jews, especially not today's Jews, because all of the Jews who did it are dead, The Bible-believing Christians that I know are friends of Israel, not enemies, and it really hurts my heart that you would call me anti-semetic. There are some people who believe the church has replaced Israel, but that is unbiblical and I am not one of them. I wasn't there at the crusifixion, so I have to trust that God knows exactly what He's doing, because he does.

Seriously, some people on here act as if they've never even been to a church that preaches from the Bible, because there are so many lies floating around. I wish everyone would find one that teaches about sin and repentance just so they could find out for themselves. I'm just shocked at the outright lying about people. (and Geo, this second paragraph is in general speaking, not aimed at you personally) Remember the devil is very subtle with his lies, but they do so much damage. Please search out the truth about things, everyone.

And it was the Jewish leaders who sought Jesus, and who paid Judas for him. The Romans wouldn't have cared if Jesus claimed to be the God of the Jews.

I even asked on here why people hated Jews because I didn't understand it myself!
 
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