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The C02 tradeoff

sawyerloggingon

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Before the 1910 fires, forest fires burned all summer and before Europeans got here Indians started fires to clear the land. Between lightning caused fires and set fires the sky over America and in fact all wooded areas of earth were dark with smoke all summer long. Now we fight fires and the sky is clear all summer long so it makes me wonder if C02 output has balanced out.

" Oregon’s 2002 Biscuit Fire burned over 499,000 acres. In terms of CO2 emissions, the Biscuit Fire was also massive. Researchers estimate that the fire pumped 3.8 teragrams of Carbon into the atmosphere. That one fire equalled one third of all the carbon released through fossil fuel burning in Oregon annually." Now imagine fires like this all over the country and compare that to our fossil fuel burning C02 output. I don't know the math here but it looks like a wash to me. Less fires -more cars = status quo.

Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center

The following link is great if you are interested in the history of fire In America before Europeans got here and the native Americans use of fire.

American Indian Use of Fire in Ecosystems References
 

MoSurveyor

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Before the 1910 fires, forest fires burned all summer and before Europeans got here Indians started fires to clear the land. Between lightning caused fires and set fires the sky over America and in fact all wooded areas of earth were dark with smoke all summer long. Now we fight fires and the sky is clear all summer long so it makes me wonder if C02 output has balanced out.

" Oregon’s 2002 Biscuit Fire burned over 499,000 acres. In terms of CO2 emissions, the Biscuit Fire was also massive. Researchers estimate that the fire pumped 3.8 teragrams of Carbon into the atmosphere. That one fire equalled one third of all the carbon released through fossil fuel burning in Oregon annually." Now imagine fires like this all over the country and compare that to our fossil fuel burning C02 output. I don't know the math here but it looks like a wash to me. Less fires -more cars = status quo.

Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center

The following link is great if you are interested in the history of fire In America before Europeans got here and the native Americans use of fire.

American Indian Use of Fire in Ecosystems References
Big difference between tree carbon and oil carbon. This isn't even apples and oranges, more like apples and cows.
 

Lord of Planar

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Big difference between tree carbon and oil carbon. This isn't even apples and oranges, more like apples and cows.
Yep

Trees will regrow, sequestering the CO2 released.
 

flogger

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Yup theres good CO 2 and now theres bad CO 2 ..... go figure :roll:
 

jmotivator

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Big difference between tree carbon and oil carbon. This isn't even apples and oranges, more like apples and cows.
Last time I checked the periodic table there was only one carbon listed.
 

Lord of Planar

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For me, it is laughable that someone took the Biscuit fire as an incident of such matters. In 2007, Oregon was rated the 2nd greenest state. For those who don't know, we have a tremendous amount on hydroelectric power. So much, we ship 3.1 giga-watts to Los Angeles via the Pacific DC Intertie. Considering we get more than half our electricity generating no CO2, how many people realize how little the Biscuit fire really is on a global scale?

 

mbig

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Yep

Trees will regrow, sequestering the CO2 released.
That would be correct IF there was an unexploited earth.

Alas, we are cutting Down/Clearing rain forest As Well As producing more carbon.
Producing/Releasing more carbon, that is, Every year than was 'sequestered' for probably many Millions of years by nature. This increasing Every year more significantly since the Industrial/fossil-fuel revolution started.
Some Clowns are pretending this unnatural double-whammy has no consequences.

Really, this post show yet More Misunderstanding/blind partisanship,
 
Last edited:

jmotivator

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They had to resort to counting isotpes...

Oooooh...So rather than the touted Apples-to-Cows comparison he's really differentiating between a Granny Smith Apple... and another Granny Smith Apple.
 

jmotivator

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For me, it is laughable that someone took the Biscuit fire as an incident of such matters. In 2007, Oregon was rated the 2nd greenest state. For those who don't know, we have a tremendous amount on hydroelectric power. So much, we ship 3.1 giga-watts to Los Angeles via the Pacific DC Intertie. Considering we get more than half our electricity generating no CO2, how many people realize how little the Biscuit fire really is on a global scale?



As a comparison, coal mine fires in China produce more CO2 annually that all automobiles on US roads. Why do we never hear about initiatives from the AGW crowd to put out coal mine fires? Better yet, let's pressure China to put out its vast coal seam fires and see what effect that has on the global climate?
 

Lord of Planar

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mbig said:
That would be correct IF there was an unexploited earth.

Alas, we are cutting Down/Clearing rain forest As Well As producing more carbon.
As a world, yes. Are you going to tell developing countries they are stuck in their present stage of development?

Are you suggesting the USA still clear cuts? The logging industry in Oregon has been hit hard by regulations that harm even those who were good stewards of the forest.
mbig said:
Producing/Releasing more carbon, that is, Every year than was sequestered for probably many Millions of years by nature. This increasing Every year more significantly since the Industrial/fossil-fuel revolution started.
The area where the fire was is healing just fine. Long process, but if you zoom in on the brown areas where the fire was, nothing wrong here.

Google Maps: Bisuit fire area

mbig said:
Some Clowns are pretending this unnatural double-whammy has no consequences.
Natural fires were once, not controllable at all by mankind.
mbig said:
Really, this post show yet More Misunderstanding/blind partisanship,
Nice for you to admit that about yourself.
 

flogger

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I honestly think some loathe our species so much now that any further impact 7 billion of us will have however unavoidable is totally unforgiveable. Its like they covertly crave the termination of any of those wishing to have a better life and all of those who already have one. :shock:
 

Lord of Planar

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As a comparison, coal mine fires in China produce more CO2 annually that all automobiles on US roads. Why do we never hear about initiatives from the AGW crowd to put out coal mine fires? Better yet, let's pressure China to put out its vast coal seam fires and see what effect that has on the global climate?
Yep.

I don't remember exactly when. It was approximately a decade ago that China exceeded our fossil fuel usage. At that it was something like 18% annual increase in their usage. This was part of a past debate that has me surprised that we still have gasoline at under $5/gal.

Now I don't fault China for their fuel consumption, but I do fault them for having the resources to build US quality scrubbers on their coal burning facilities, and not doing so. In the AGW debates, my claim becomes that soot on ice, and in the air, is the most significant contributor to AGW. Not CO2.
 

jmotivator

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Yep.

I don't remember exactly when. It was approximately a decade ago that China exceeded our fossil fuel usage. At that it was something like 18% annual increase in their usage. This was part of a past debate that has me surprised that we still have gasoline at under $5/gal.

Now I don't fault China for their fuel consumption, but I do fault them for having the resources to build US quality scrubbers on their coal burning facilities, and not doing so. In the AGW debates, my claim becomes that soot on ice, and in the air, is the most significant contributor to AGW. Not CO2.

Well, in this case China is wasting huge amounts of natural resources through these fires. We should focus on extinguishing these coal mine fires first.
 

Lord of Planar

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Well, in this case China is wasting huge amounts of natural resources through these fires. We should focus on extinguishing these coal mine fires first.
I wasn't aware they had continuing problems with that.
 

Lord of Planar

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The problem still persists, and new fires seems to start every year.
Yes, but not like the 50 year fire...

It's a problem in other places as well. Just more predominate in China due to their size and extent of coal mining. They are close to using 50% of the coal used in the world.
 

MoSurveyor

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Last time I checked the periodic table there was only one carbon listed.
Makes a big difference where it comes from. With most trees the carbon was already in the atmosphere within the last 100 years. With oil it's more like 100,000,000 years.

Do you seriously have trouble understanding the difference between them?

100 years
100,000,000 years
 

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Makes a big difference where it comes from. With most trees the carbon was already in the atmosphere within the last 100 years. With oil it's more like 100,000,000 years.

Do you seriously have trouble understanding the difference between them?

100 years
100,000,000 years
Burn a log and release carbon into the atmosphere.
Burn oil and release carbon into the atmosphere.

Carbon is carbon is carbon. How much is released might matter. Where it comes from doesn't.
 

MoSurveyor

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Burn a log and release carbon into the atmosphere.
Burn oil and release carbon into the atmosphere.

Carbon is carbon is carbon. How much is released might matter. Where it comes from doesn't.
The tree will be replaced with another tree and take up the log's carbon as it grows.

But, hey, if you're willing to return the carbon from oil to whence it came, 5000' underground, I'm good with that! :)
 

Lord of Planar

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Makes a big difference where it comes from. With most trees the carbon was already in the atmosphere within the last 100 years. With oil it's more like 100,000,000 years.

Do you seriously have trouble understanding the difference between them?

100 years
100,000,000 years
Are you misinformed, miscommunicating, or misinforming those who don't know?

CO2 sinks don't distinguish between 12C or 13C enough to matter.

---add---

As I think about it, I think I understand your point. just the same, if the oceans didn't change in heat for the last century, and centuries from now, all our added CO2 would equalized to only an added 2 ppm/century. The 8 GtC we add annually is still a small percentage of the natural flux.
 
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Papa bull

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The tree will be replaced with another tree and take up the log's carbon as it grows.

But, hey, if you're willing to return the carbon from oil to whence it came, 5000' underground, I'm good with that! :)
This is irrelevant. The fact is that carbon is carbon is carbon and the carbon from oil is no different than the carbon from coal or from trees or from grass. Carbon in oil and coal was once vegetation, too. While you may be able to argue that burning fossil fuels introduces carbon into the atmosphere that has been sequestered for quite some time, you cannot argue that the carbon from trees is different than the carbon from oil.
 

Lord of Planar

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While you may be able to argue that burning fossil fuels introduces carbon into the atmosphere that has been sequestered for quite some time, you cannot argue that the carbon from trees is different than the carbon from oil.
Technically, that's not true. It's isotopic ratio is different. That's about it. Fossil fuel has no 14C in it. The 13C content is also slightly different.
 

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Technically, that's not true. It's isotopic ratio is different. That's about it. Fossil fuel has no 14C in it. The 13C content is also slightly different.
I see. I'll accept that. Can it, then be argued that it bonds to Co2 differently? If not, then we have to accept that, while there may be a technical difference, there isn't a practical difference for the sake of the AGW argument.
 

MoSurveyor

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Are you misinformed, miscommunicating, or misinforming those who don't know?

CO2 sinks don't distinguish between 12C or 13C enough to matter.

---add---

As I think about it, I think I understand your point. just the same, if the oceans didn't change in heat for the last century, and centuries from now, all our added CO2 would equalized to only an added 2 ppm/century. The 8 GtC we add annually is still a small percentage of the natural flux.
I'm talking about the cycle rate of the different fuels. Trees take carbon from the air as they grow and, one way or another, it returns to the air when they die either by fire or decomposition. The cycle is usually a century long - sometimes more for trees like oaks and especially redwoods.

When was the last time the carbon in oil was in the atmosphere? Obviously some cycle somewhere has been interrupted since the ppm has risen so dramatically of late.
 
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