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The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

danarhea

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Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock? One only has to open the Book of Mormon and read it to find that the gross inaccuracies contained in the book show that this is not the word of God at all, and that Joseph Smith DID deceive his followers by writing fiction.

1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.

2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.

I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.

Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

-The cimter is a curved sword, with the sharp edge on the convex side. None have ever been found by archaeologists studying the Americas.

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.

This is just for starters. You can read more at the Skeptics Annotated Book of Mormon.
 
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Spartacus FPV

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Are you serious Dana? You really wanna go scientific on Mormon claims?

Of course its going to be unscientific, because Mormonism is just Christianity plus a bunch more mysticism. Or as Sam Harris put it:
Sam Harris @ AAI said:
Mormonism, it seems to me, is—objectively—just a little more idiotic than Christianity is. It has to be: because it is Christianity plus some very stupid ideas. For instance, the Mormons think Jesus is going to return to earth and administer his Thousand years of Peace, at least part of the time, from the state of Missouri. Why does this make Mormonism less likely to be true than Christianity? Because whatever probability you assign to Jesus’ coming back, you have to assign a lesser probability to his coming back and keeping a summer home in Jackson County, Missouri.
 

jallman

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Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock? One only has to open the Book of Mormon and read it to find that the gross inaccuracies contained in the book show that this is not the word of God at all, and that Joseph Smith DID deceive his followers by writing fiction.

1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.

2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.

I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.

Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

-The cimter is a curved sword, with the sharp edge on the convex side. None have ever been found by archaeologists studying the Americas.

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.

This is just for starters. You can read more at the Skeptics Annotated Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon has scientific inaccuracies. So what? So does the Bible.

Something tells me this isn't about the Book of Mormon. I got a sneaking suspicion that you are making a jab at Romney. Still bitter about having your a$$ handed to you yesterday? :lol:
 

Spartacus FPV

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Oh, its you...

The Book of Mormon has scientific inaccuracies. So what? So does the Bible.

Oh, well I guess that makes scientific inaccuracies okay! :roll:

Something tells me this isn't about the Book of Mormon. I got a sneaking suspicion that you are making a jab at Romney. Still bitter about having your a$$ handed to you yesterday? :lol:

By the guy who, while begging for religious tolerance, said that freedom requires religion? Not likely...
 

jallman

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Re: Oh, its you...

Oh, well I guess that makes scientific inaccuracies okay! :roll:

I never made that claim. Why don't you try something out...speak to what I actually said and not what you wish I had said. :doh

By the guy who, while begging for religious tolerance, said that freedom requires religion? Not likely...

I never made that claim either. Answer me a question: can you even read at all?
 

Spartacus FPV

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Re: Oh, its you...

I never made that claim. Why don't you try something out...speak to what I actually said and not what you wish I had said. :doh

So tell me then, what claim were you making with "So does the bible." What was the point of saying that, what were you trying to get across, if it wasn't a justification.

I never made that claim either.

Did I say that you did? I was talking about Romney's argument from the speech that you claimed Dana was bitter about. That was what I was talking about, if you cared to pay attention.

Has your ad-hominem oriented logic gone so far over the deep end that you cannot distinguish between a response and a claim?

Shall I say it again for you in simpler language?: Romney said that freedom requires religion, and I doubted that Dana is bitter about such tripe being considered "handing anyone their *** to them." If anything Romney showed how illogical his position is.

Answer me a question: can you even read at all?

Yes I can.

My turn: Why can you not distinguish between my doubting that Dana is bitter about Romney vs me putting a claim into your mouth?

You've grown so spiteful that you cannot even follow conversation. Where in my previous post did I say you made a claim regarding Romney's hypocritical stance on Secularism?
 
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jallman

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Re: Oh, its you...

So tell me then, what claim were you making with "So does the bible." What was the point of saying that, what were you trying to get across, if it wasn't a justification.

Dana said: Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock?

And then Dana went on to discredit the Book of Mormon, but not the Bible, because of scientific inaccuracies. I made the point that BOTH have scientific inaccuracies so his comparison/contrast proved nothing.

Did I say that you did?

Sounded like it to me.

I was talking about Romney's argument from the speech that you claimed Dana was bitter about. That was what I was talking about, if you cared to pay attention.

Well had you cared to pay attention or ask a friggin question rather than jump into the fray without a clue what you are talking about, you would have been informed that I was talking about how a bunch of us handed Dana his a$$ yesterday in another thread along the same topic. But, true to form, you just decided to start flapping your gums because you just like to see yourself post. You're just so smawt, arentcha?

Yes I can.

My turn: Why can you not distinguish between my doubting that Dana is bitter about Romney vs me putting a claim into your mouth.

Uhh...because no one made a claim about Dana being bitter about Romney, brainchild. You're just confused all the way around. :lol:
 

Spartacus FPV

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Re: Oh, its you...

Dana said: Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock?

And then Dana went on to discredit the Book of Mormon, but not the Bible, because of scientific inaccuracies. I made the point that BOTH have scientific inaccuracies so his comparison/contrast proved nothing.

How are Dana's arguments against the scientific inaccuracies of the book of Mormon invalid simply because of the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible?

Sounded like it to me.

Well had you cared to pay attention or ask a friggin question rather than jump into the fray without a clue what you are talking about, you would have been informed that I was talking about how a bunch of us handed Dana his a$$ yesterday in another thread along the same topic. But, true to form, you just decided to start flapping your gums because you just like to see yourself post. You're just so smawt, arentcha?

Uhh...because no one made a claim about Dana being bitter about Romney, brainchild. You're just confused all the way around. :lol:

Oh really? So you never said in post #3 that he was making a jab @ Romney because he was bitter about some alleged *** handing of yesterday? I guess yesterday's discussion had nothing to do with Romney at all. :roll:

I wouldn't know, because I don't know what debate you're referring to. But I guess it was just crazy for me to assume he would jab @ Romney for something RELATED.

What do I need to ask you about when Romney's speech text is available online. I still doubt that Dana would have been bitter about anything having to do with that illogical "freedom requires religion" moron.
 
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jallman

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Re: Oh, its you...

How are Dana's arguments against the scientific inaccuracies of the book of Mormon invalid simply because of the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible?



Oh really? So you never said in post #3 that he was making a jab @ Romney because he was bitter about some alleged *** handing of yesterday? I guess yesterday's discussion had nothing to do with Romney at all. :roll:

What do I need to ask you about when Romney's speech text is available online. I still doubt that Dana would have been bitter about anything having to do with that illogical "freedom requires religion" moron.

I'm going to try typing real slow this time so maybe you can have at least a chance of understanding...

My comment, directed to Dana, was about a thread we were both in yesterday that had NOTHING TO DO WITH ROMNEY'S SPEECH. It was about ROMNEY BEING MORMON but not ROMNEY'S SPEECH that you keep caterwauling about.

God, you have such a boner for trying to prove someone wrong that you can't even comprehend what was written. Maybe it's just that your mouth-foam is now blocking your vision...I dunno. I do know one thing...you have been off my ignore list for a sum total of 1 hour and I'm already starting to regret it.
 

Spartacus FPV

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You've grown so hateful its almost funny

I'm going to try typing real slow this time so maybe you can have at least a chance of understanding...

My comment, directed to Dana, was about a thread we were both in yesterday that had NOTHING TO DO WITH ROMNEY'S SPEECH. It was about ROMNEY BEING MORMON but not ROMNEY'S SPEECH that you keep caterwauling about.

God, you have such a boner for trying to prove someone wrong that you can't even comprehend what was written. Maybe it's just that your mouth-foam is now blocking your vision...I dunno. I do know one thing...you have been off my ignore list for a sum total of 1 hour and I'm already starting to regret it.

Okay so I guess Romney's speech had nothing to do with his being a Mormon. How silly of me! :doh I guess my memory isn't so good, because somehow I remember him denouncing secularism while begging the nation for religious tolerance.

I MUST be equivocating on two totally distinct issues having to do with Romney but not his Mormonism... :lol:

PS: You can type as slow as you like, but the text comes out the same to me regardless. Take all the time you need, but perhaps you should try posting more intelligently. Oh and being on your ignore list really breaks my heart, I swear!

PSS: It doesn't matter, your whole last post was only to dodge the fact that you were in fact trying to justify scientific inaccuracies in one scripture with another.

PSSS: If my logic is too far above your reading level, feel free to put me back on ignore. Your not addressing my logic is nothing new to me. And while I was on ignore, I debunked your tripe on various threads anyway; For the sake of truth and to arm the ones you were paying attention to.
 
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jallman

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Re: Oh, its you...

Okay so I guess Romney's speech had nothing to do with his being a Mormon. How silly of me! :doh

I WASN"T TALKING ABOUT ROMNEY'S SPEECH AT ALL. I WAS MAKING A FRIENDLY JAB AT DANA ABOUT SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE SPEECH.

*******, are you that friggin retarded that you can't comprehend a simple and direct statement. Fu/ck!
 

jallman

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Re: You've grown so hateful its almost funny

I MUST be equivocating on two totally distinct issues having to do with Romney but not his Mormonism... :lol:

No, you decided to butt into an exchange that had nothing to do wtih you and you showed your idiocy by making a totally irrelevant claim. In other words, you were being a dipsh1t.

PS: You can type as slow as you like, but the text comes out the same to me regardless. Take all the time you need, but perhaps you should try posting more intelligently. Oh and being on your ignore list really breaks my heart, I swear!

Good, because the ignore list isn't just for a$$holes, it's also for the terminally stupid. Buh-bye.
 

Spartacus FPV

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Intellectual coward

I WASN"T TALKING ABOUT ROMNEY'S SPEECH AT ALL. I WAS MAKING A FRIENDLY JAB AT DANA ABOUT SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE SPEECH.

*******, are you that friggin retarded that you can't comprehend a simple and direct statement. Fu/ck!

Are you sure? Perhaps you could direct me to the thread where Dana received this alleged *** whomping so that I might understand what your ALL CAPS POST is crying about.

News Flash:
Romney's speech was about his faith.
Your thread was about his faith.
This thread is about his faith.
My post was about his faith.
Your claim that my post was irrelevant to his faith, or his speech, shows how disconnected and compartmentalized your logic gets when it comes to matters of faith.

No, you decided to butt into an exchange that had nothing to do wtih you and you showed your idiocy by making a totally irrelevant claim. In other words, you were being a dipsh1t.

:2bigcry:

I guess this isn't a public debate forum, and thread membership is up to the great and wise jallman.

Its unfortunate you call my argument idiotic rather than explaining to me how they are so. But you're just so unfortunate, aren't you?

Good, because the ignore list isn't just for a$$holes, it's also for the terminally stupid. Buh-bye.

:coffeepap

If you can't beat their logic, wish it away and pretend it doesn't exist. Ignorance is so intelligent, aint it jallman?

But then again, its my loss isn't it? Being on your ignore list? Because otherwise you might actually make an effort into explaining how I am wrong, rather than asserting it. No wait, thats not your style either.
 
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laska

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Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock? One only has to open the Book of Mormon and read it to find that the gross inaccuracies contained in the book show that this is not the word of God at all, and that Joseph Smith DID deceive his followers by writing fiction.

1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.

2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.

I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.

Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

-The cimter is a curved sword, with the sharp edge on the convex side. None have ever been found by archaeologists studying the Americas.

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.

This is just for starters. You can read more at the Skeptics Annotated Book of Mormon.

This is old stuff that LDS scolars have given adequate responses to. The compass argument is a strawman, the Liahona was only a compass in the sense that it gave directions, in the same context as a road sign is a compass guiding travelers to their destination. The steel argument is a strawman, the sword was Laban's, a military leader in Jerusalem, and so it was from the Old World, not America. The honeybees argument is a strawman(see any pattern here), it is also in an old world context. Ancient New World Barley was discovered by an archeological team in Arizona in 1983. Horses, cows, cimter's arguments have also had adequate LDS responses and can be found through google Jeff Lindsay. Below is a small sample of evidence of authenticity that the BOM is an ancient text that was outside of human knowledge in 1830. Stuff you'll never see on an anti-Mormon website.

"1. Paanchi, the son of Pahoran, and pretender to the chief-judgeship, has the same name as one of the best-known kings in Egyptian history, a contemporary of Isaiah and chief actor in the drama of Egyptian history at a time in which that history was intimately involved in the affairs of Palestine.3 Yet his name, not mentioned in the Bible, remained unknown to scholars until the end of the nineteenth century.
This Egyptian Paanchi, whose name means "He (namely Ammon) is my life," was the son of one Kherihor (the vowels are guesses!), the High Priest of Ammon, who in a priestly plot set himself up as a rival of Pharaoh himself, while his son Paanchi actually claimed the throne. This was four hundred years before Lehi left Jerusalem, and it had historic repercussions of great importance; not only did it establish a new dynasty, but it inaugurated the rule of priestcraft in Egypt; from that time on, "the High-priest of Amon . . . could and constantly did reduce the king to a position of subservience."4
Now in the Book of Mormon both Paanchi and Korihor are involved in such plots and intrigues of priestcraft. The former, to gain the chief judgeship for himself, tried to achieve the assassination of his two elder brothers, who bore the good Egyptian names of Pahoran (meaning "man of Syria or Palestine"—a Horite) and Pacumeni (cf. Egyptian Pakamen), while the latter charged the judges with trying to introduce into the New World the abuses of priestcraft which the people knew had been practiced in the Old, "ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority" (Alma 30:23).

Pendant Names
But the most striking thing about the names of Laman and Lemuel is the way they go together; as we saw above it has been suggested that the former is but a corruption of the latter.37 Whether that is so or not, the musical pair certainly belong together and are a beautiful illustration of the old desert custom of naming the first two sons in a family with rhyming twin names, "a pair of pendant names," as Spiegel puts it, "like Eldad and Medad, Hillek and Billek, or Jannes and Jambres. The Arabs particularly seem to enjoy putting together such assonant names Y�?ǵuǵ and Maǵuǵ for Gog and Magog, H�?rūn and K�?rūn for Aaron and Korah, H�?bīl and K�?bīl for Abel and Cain, Ḫillīt and Millīt for the first dwellers in hell."38 Speigel is here discussing the names Heyya and Abeyya, and might well have included in his parallels the recently discovered romance of Sul and Shummul. Harut and Marut were the first two angels to fall from grace, like Laman and Lemuel, according to Arab tradition of great antiquity. These names never go in threes or fours but only in pairs, designating just the first two sons of a family with no reference to the rest. This "Dioscuric" practice has a ritual significance which has been discussed by Rendel Harris, 39 but of the actual practice itself, especially among the desert people, there can be no doubt, for we read in an ancient inscription: "N. built this tomb for his sons Hatibat and Hamilat."40 One could not ask for a better illustration of this little-known and, until recently, unsuspected practice than we find in the Book of Mormon where Lehi names his first two sons Laman and Lemuel.
Recently there have been discovered lists of the names of prisoners that Nebuchadnezzar brought back to Babylon with him from his great expedition into Syria and Palestine.7 These represent a good cross section of proper names prevailing in those lands in the days of Lehi, and among them is a respectable proportion of Egyptian names, which is what the Book of Mormon would lead us to expect. Also in the list are Philistine (cf. Book of Mormon Minon and Pathros!), Phoenician, Elamite, Median, Persian, Greek, and Lydian names—all the sweepings of a campaign into Lehi's country. According to D. W. Thomas, this list shows that it was popular at the time to name children after Egyptian hero kings of the past.8 A surprisingly large number of the non-Hebraic Nephite names are of this class. Thus the name Aha, which a Nephite general bestowed on his son, means "warrior" and was borne by the legendary first hero king of Egypt. Himni, Korihor, Paanchi, Pakumeni, Sam, Zeezrom, Ham, Manti, Nephi, and Zenoch are all Egyptian hero names.9 Zeniff certainly suggests the name Zainab and its variants, popular among the desert people, of which the feminine form of Zenobia was borne by the most glamorous woman of ancient times next to Cleopatra and that other desert queen, the Queen of Sheba. Recently Beeston has identified Zoram in both its Hebrew and Arabic forms.10
 

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You've beaten me with my own laziness

So many words, too lazy to refute...
 

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I've got a bunch of bits and pieces of articles from LDS scholars in my computer, thought I'd post some. All of it can be found on the internet. I've struggled whether I should just ignore this thread or respond, and I've posted and then deleted the posts a few times now. IMHO spiritual evidence is the only sure evidence, the kind you get from prayer. While I think the evidence that JS is a true prophet and the BOM is an ancient text is overwhelming, others see things differently.


WRITING SACRED RECORDS ON METAL PLATES
Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon record was inscribed on metal plates and buried in a stone box in a hill now referred to as the Hill Cumorah. Since their discovery the critics have ridiculed this claim. The critics, in fact, were very adamant that the claim of sacred writings on metal plates was proof of fraud. In 1887, for instance, one critic who made his conclusions supposedly “after a very careful study of the book [Book of Mormon], [and] a conscientious and painstaking examination of all the evidences he has been able to gather both for and against it” was “forced to reject” the claims made by the Book of Mormon. “...no such records,” he concludes, “were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages....” (Lamb, 11.) And yet another critic writes: “It does not seem to have been pointed out to the youth [Joseph Smith] that gold will corrode if left in the earth for the number of years those plates were supposed to have been buried.” (Stuart Martin, 27) .....................
As the critics have already demonstrated, the world of Joseph Smith did not believe that ancient records had ever been inscribed on metal plates or kept in stone boxes. Today, however, we have hundreds of examples of ancient writings on metal plates (and many stored in stone boxes), some of which date back as early as 2450 B.C. (Cheesman [1985], 69, 82.) “...the discovery of writings on plates of precious metal,” notes Nibley, “once the hardest thing to swallow in Joseph Smith's story, has become almost a commonplace in the Near East.” (Nibley [1989], 76.) LDS Criticisms-- Metal Plates & Stone Boxes


From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.7)
The Plates
It is hard for us to realize today that for many years the idea of writing a sacred record on gold plates was considered just too funny for words and that the mere mention of the "Golden Bible" was enough to shock and scandalize the world. Today at least a hundred examples of ancient writing on metal plates are available, the latest discoveries being three gold plaques found in 1964 near an ancient shrine on the coast of Italy; they are covered with Punic and Etruscan writing and date from about 500 b.c. Punic, it will be recalled, is Phoenician, a language and script that flourished in Lehi's day a few miles from Jerusalem. It was also in 1964 that the writings on a thin gold plate from Sicily was identified as Hebrew; though the plate has been known since 1876, Hebrew was the last thing anybody expected. The golden plates of Darius, discovered in 1938,which in their form and the manner of their preservation so strikingly resemble the plates described by Joseph Smith, were augmented by new findings in the 1950s; the contents of the latter plates, a pious mixture of religious declamation and history, are as suggestive of the Book of Mormon as their outward appearance is of the plates. We have already spoken of the Copper Scrolls, riveted metal sheets, and noted how the purpose and spirit as well as the method of their production and concealment matches the record-keeping practices of the Nephites in every particular. Especially interesting is the provision that treasures "must be hidden
away," that such treasures "would never be desecrated by profane use, "since" to use such goods for nonreligious purposes was a heinous sin," and it was "dangerous for any but priests to handle." For this is a lesson that Samuel the Lamanite drives home: "For I will, saith the Lord, that they shall hide up their treasures unto me; and cursed be they who hide not up their treasures unto me; for none hideth up their treasures unto me save it be the righteous; and he that hideth not up his treasures unto me, cursed is he, and also the treasure, and none shall redeem it because of the curse of the land . . . will hide up their treasures when they shall flee before their enemies; because they will not hide them up unto me, cursed be they and also their treasure" (Helaman 13:19-20).

‘Darius the Median’... [a ruler in Lehi's time] had his royal proclamation [of the liberation of the Jews] put on plates of pure gold and silver and buried in a carefully made stone box, which was discovered in 1938. (Nibley [1978a], 18, 19; italics added.)
stone%20box.gif





_39084776_etruscan203.jpg

The oldest multiple page book that has been discovered and it is on gold plates from the 6th century b.c.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Unique book goes on display


"The parallels between the Book of Mormon and the ancient world in this area have not escaped at least a raised eyebrow or two from non-LDS scholars. The eminent Jewish scholar, Raphael Patai, in discussing a reference to the Book of Abraham being "of thin barks" with a cover of thin copper, observes:
The idea that sacred texts were originally inscribed in metal tablets recurs in the Mormon belief that the Book of Mormon came down inscribed on gold plates. Important documents were in fact preserved on metal tablets and preserved in stone or marble boxes in Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc.
Raphael Patai, The Jewish Alchemists (Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1994), p. 573 n. 19, as cited by Tvedtnes, op. cit., p. 19.)"

"Where the record was one of real importance, plates of copper, bronze, or even more precious metal were used instead of the usual wooden, lead, or clay tablets" (CWHN 5:119; see also H. C. Wright, in Journal of Library History 16 [1981]:48-70).


"The eminent non-LDS scholar, R.H. Charles, gives us some insight into these ancient practices, and notes their relationship to the Book of Mormon:
The tradition of secrecy begins with Enoch: When Enoch found the Book of Adam and read it, 'he knew that the human race would not be able to receive it. So he hid it again, and it remained hidden until Noah.' But the practice began with Adam, who received the golden book from Michael and hid it in the crevice of a rock. The Torah itself was buried when Israel sinned, to be dug up in later times. The Copper Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls shows us how in times of dire peril all those sacred things that have been dedicated, including the holy writings, were buried for safety, a practice clearly set forth in the Book of Mormon (Helaman 13: 18-20.) From early Babylonian sources comes the report of Berossus, that Kronus ordered Xisuthros (Noah) to inscribe in writing the beginning, middle, and end of everything, and to bury the records in the city of Sippar, to be exhumed after the Flood."
(The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, 2 vols., Oxford, Clarendon Press, reprint, 1979, vol. 2, p. 614, as cited by Kerry A. Shirts, Journal of Mormon Apologetics, Vol. 1, 1999, p. 94)"
 

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COLOPHON
"Hugh Nibley first identified 1 Nephi 1:1-3 as a colophon, a structured and typical identificatory passage used at the beginning or end of many ancient documents (Nibley Since Cumorah1967, pp. 170-171). The essential elements are the identification of the writer, the writer's lineage, and at times a statement of the veracity or trustworthiness of the written text. The concept of the colophon was expanded in John A. Tvetnes' "Colophons in the Book of Mormon" in Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, ed. Sorenson and Thorne, 1991, pp. 32-37.
1 Nephi 1:1
1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
1 Nephi 1:2
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
1 Nephi 1:3
3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.
 

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SCRIPTORIO

This is the ancient practice of putting the title page in the back of the record, not the front like modern texts would.

"the title page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated."-Joseph Smith
 

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ANCIENT ARABIC QASIDA
(From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.1, Ch.5)
According to Richter, the best possible example of the primitive Arabic qasida (the name given to the oldest actual poetry of the desert) is furnished by those old poems in which one's beloved is compared to a land "in which abundant streams flow down . . . with rushing and swirling, so that the water overflows every evening continually." Here the "continually flowing" water is compared to the person addressed, as in Lehi's "song" to Laman. The original qasida, the same authority avers, was built around the beseeching (werbenden, hence the name qasida) motif, not necessarily erotic in origin, as was once thought, but dealing rather with praise of virtue in general (Tugendlob). Ibn Qutayba even claims that the introductory love theme was merely a device to gain attention of male listeners and was not at all the real stuff of the poem. The standard pattern is a simple one: (a) the poet's attention is arrested by some impressive natural phenomenon, usually running water; (b) this leads him to recite a few words in its praise drawing it to the attention of a beloved companion of the way, and (c) making it an object lesson for the latter, who is urged to be like it. Burton gives a good example: at the sight of the Wadi al-Akik the nomad poet is moved to exclaim,
O my friend, this is Akik, then stand by it,
Endeavoring to be distracted by love,
if not really a lover.This seems to be some sort of love song, albeit a peculiar one, and some have claimed that all the old qasidas were such. But Burton and his Arabs know the real meaning, "the esoteric meaning of this couplet," as he calls it, which quite escapes the western reader and is to be interpreted:
Man! This is a lovely portion of God's creation:
Then stand by it, and here learn to love
the perfections of thy Supreme Friend.Compare this with Lehi's appeal to Lemuel:​
O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast And immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord! (1 Nephi 2:10).Note the remarkable parallel. In each case the poet, wandering in the desert with his friends, is moved by the sight of a pleasant valley, a large wady with water in it; he calls the attention of his beloved companion to the view, and appeals to him to learn a lesson from the valley and "stand by it," firm and unshakable in the love of the ways of the Lord. Let us briefly list the exacting conditions fulfilled by Nephi's account of his father's qasidas and demanded of the true and authentic poet of the earliest period: used in the Book of Mormon. NOTE: FYI, here's the exact Book of Mormon quote again: (From the Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 2:8-10)
8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.
9 And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!
10 And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!
 

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HEBRAIC POETRY IN THE BOM
Synonymous Parallelism

This type of parallelism occurs when "the second line of a couplet [two line unit] repeats the thought of the first line in different words" (Huey and Corley 1983:182).
Old Testament
0 magnify the Lord with me,
and let us exalt his name together. Psalm 34:3
Book of Mormon
For his soul did rejoice,
and his whole heart was filled. 1 Nephi 1:14
Antithetic Parallelism
This kind of parallelism occurs when the second line of a verse contrasts or opposes the first line.
Old Testament
For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous,
but the way of the ungodly shall perish. Psalm 1:6
Book of Mormon
Ye are swift to do iniquity,
but slow to remember the Lord your God. I Nephi 5:144
http://www.restoredcovenant.org/Document.asp?CAT=Hebrew+Nature&DOC=Hebrew+Poetry&PAGE=4

The above link gives examples of several different kings of Hebraic poetry found in the BOM. If you'll scroll through about ten pages of it, it is quite amazing.
 

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HEBRAISMS
"Mark Twain called the Book of Mormon "chloroform in print," and the 1830 edition would similarly impress most modern readers.............The Book of Mormon shows all the signs of being a translation of an ancient Semitic record which has been translated into English by someone who had little skill in English grammar and phrasing. The sentence structure, word usage, and peculiar idioms of the original language have been nearly recreated in sometimes very awkward English phrases. Brother Tvedtnes concludes, "In most cases thus far investigated, Book of Mormon expressions which are ungrammatical in English are perfect Hebrew grammar."(2) Instances of Hebraic expression found in an English text are called Hebraisms. This paper will examine a number of Hebraisms that are found in the Book of Mormon. A more detailed discussion will be found in the references.
Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon
 

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NAMES IN THE BOM

From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.1, Ch.2)

Strange Names
The stamp of Egypt on Lehi's people may be clearly discerned in the names those people and their descendants. Hebrew and Egyptian names together make up the overwhelming majority and occur in about equal strength, which is exactly what one would expect from Mormon's claim that both languages were used among them (and which would certainly not be the case were Hebrew the only spoken language), but Hittite, Arabic, and Ionian elements are not missing. First, consider a few Egyptian names, setting off the Book of Mormon names (BM) against their Old World equivalents (OW).
Aha (BM), son of the Nephite commander in chief.
Aha (OW), a name of the first Pharaoh; it means "warrior" and is a common word.
Aminadab (BM), Nephite missionary in the time of the judges.
Amanathabi (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. This name is "reformed" Egyptian.
Ammon (BM), the commonest name in the Book of Mormon.
Ammon (Amon, Amun) (OW), the commonest name in the Egyptian Empire: the great universal God of the Empire.
Ammoni-hah (BM), name of a country and city.
Ammuni-ra (OW), prince of Beyrut under Egyptian rule. The above might stand the same relationship to this name as
Cameni-hah (BM), a Nephite general
(Khamuni-ra (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra.
Cezoram (BM), Nephite chief judge.
Chiziri (OW), Egyptian governor of a Syrian city.
Giddonah (BM), a) high priest who judged Korihor, b) father of Amulek.
Dji-dw-na (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon.
Gidgiddoni and Gidgiddonah (BM), Nephite generals.
Djed-djhwt-iw-f and Djed-djhwti-iw-s plus ankh (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "Thoth hath said: he shall live," and "Thoth hath said: she shall live," respectively. On this pattern the two Nephite names mean "Thoth hath said I shall live," and "Thoth hath said: we shall live," respectively.
Giddianhi (BM), robber chief and general.

Djhwti-ankhi (OW), "Thoth is my life"; see above.
Gimgim-no (BM), city of Gimgim, compare Biblical No-Amon, "City of Amon."
Kenkeme (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.
Hem (BM), brother of the earlier Ammon.
Hem (OW), means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon" held by the high priest of Thebes.
Helaman (BM), great Nephite prophet.
Her-amon (OW), "in the presence of Amon," as in the Egyptian proper name Heri-i-her-imn. Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, e Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.
Himni (BM), a son of King Mosiah.
Hmn (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god, symbol of the emperor.
Korihor (BM), a political agitator who was seized by the people of Ammon.
Kherihor (also written Khurhor, etc.) (OW), great high priest of Ammon who seized the throne of Egypt at Thebes, cir. 1085 b.c.
Manti (BM), the name of a Nephite soldier, a land, a city, and a hill.
Manti (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name, e.g., Manti-mankhi, prince in Upper Egypt cir. 650 b.c. It is a late form of Month, god of Hermonthis.
Mathoni (BM), a Nephite disciple.

Maitena, Mattenos, etc. (OW), two judges of Tyre, who at different times made themselves king, possibly under the Egyptian auspices.
Morianton (BM), the name of a Nephite city and its founder, cf. the Nephite province Moriantum.
Meriaton and Meriamon (OW), names of Egyptian princes, "Beloved of Aton" and "Beloved of Amon" respectively.
Nephi (BM), founder of the Nephite nation.
Nehi, Nehri (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen. Nfy was the name of an Egyptian captain. Since BM insists on "ph," Nephi is closer to Nihpi, original name of the god Pa-nepi, which may even have been Nephi.
Paanchi (BM), son of Pahoran, Sr., and pretender to the chief-judgeship.
Paanchi (OW), son of Kherihor, a) chief high priest of Amon, b) ruler of the south who conquered all of Egypt and was high priest of Amon at Thebes.
Pahoran (BM), a) great chief judge, b) son of the same.
Pa-her-an (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine, where his name has the "Reformed" reading Pahura; in Egyptian as Pa-her-y it means "the Syrian" or Asiatic.
Pacumeni (BM), son of Pahoran.
Pakamen (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.
Pachus (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.
Pa-ks and Pach-qs (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."
Sam (BM), brother of Nephi.
Sam Tawi (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.
Seezor-am and Zeezr-om (BM), a depraved judge, and a lawyer, resp., the latter also the name of a city.
Zoser, Zeser, etc. (OW), Third Dynasty ruler, one of the greatest Pharaohs.
Zemna-ri-hah (BM), robber chief.
Zmn-ha-re (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order--a common Egyptian practice.
Zeniff (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.
Znb, Snb (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.
Zenoch (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.
Zenekh (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/bookschapter.php?bookid=&chapid=605

In the above link Nibley gives a lot of intriguing evidence regarding the names in the BOM. To me the names may be the strongest evidence in support of the BOM.
 

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THE NAMES IN LEHI"S FAMILY

"There is a remarkable association between the names of Lehi and Ishmael which ties them both to the southern desert, where the legendary birthplace and central shrine of Ishmael was at a place called Be'er Lehai-ro'i. 50 Wellhausen rendered the name "spring of the wild-ox jawbone," 51 but Paul Haupt showed that Lehi (for so he reads the name) does not mean "jaw" but "cheek," 52 which leaves the meaning of the strange compound still unclear. One thing is certain, however: that Lehi is a personal name. Until recently this name was entirely unknown save as a place name, but now it has turned up at Elath and elsewhere in the south in a form that has been identified by Nelson Glueck with the name Lahai, which "occurs quite frequently either as a part of a compound, or as a separate name of a deity or a person, particularly in Minaean, Thamudic, and Arabic texts." 53 There is a Beit Lahi, "House of Lahi," among the ancient place names of the Arab country around Gaza, but the meaning of the name has here been lost. 54 If the least be said of it, the name Lehi is thoroughly at home among the people of the desert and, so far as we know, nowhere else."-Nibley-see above link.



Another novel Book of Mormon name is Sariah, the wife of Lehi who lived in Jerusalem in 600 B.C. Scholars did not know that Sariah was an authentic ancient Hebrew name for a woman until long after the time of Joseph Smith. Jeffrey R. Chadwick explains in "Sariah in the Elephantine Papyri," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 2., No. 2, 1993, pp. 197-201 (the citation is from p. 196):
The conjectural Hebrew spelling of Sariah would be s'ryh and would be pronounced something like Sar-yah. The skeptic might suggest that this name was an invention of Joseph Smith, since Sariah does not appear in the Bible as a female personal name. However, in a significant historical parallel to the Book of Mormon, the Hebrew name Sariah, spelled sryh, has been identified in a reconstructed form as the name of a Jewish woman living at Elephantine in Upper Egypt during the fifth century B.C.
The reference to Sariah of Elephantine is found in Aramaic Papyrus #22 (also called Cowley #22 or C-22) and appears in Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century B.C. [Arthur E. Cowley, ed. and trans. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1923), p. 67]. Although the language of the documents is Aramaic, A. E. Cowley specifies that the names are in fact Hebrew [ibid., xv]. Line 4 of C-22 lists the personal name sry[h br]t hws 'br hrmn [ibid., 67]. The probable vocalization is Sariah barat Hoshea' bar Harman, and the text means "Sariah daughter of Hoshea son of Harman." Cowley had to reconstruct part of the text, supplying the final h of Sariah and the initial b-r of barat, but the spacing is adequate, and the comparative context of the papyrus leaves little doubt that the reconstruction is accurate. The extant final t of barat assures us that the person was a daughter, not a son, and, after the letters b-r are supplied, there is only room for one additional letter--the final h of Sariah.


The only example of the name of Laman to be found anywhere to the writer's knowledge is its attribution to an ancient Mukam, or sacred place, in Palestine. Most of these Mukams are of unknown, and many of them of prehistoric, date. In Israel only the tribe of Manasseh built them. 56 It is a striking coincidence that Conder saw in the name Leimun, as he renders it (the vowels must be supplied by guesswork), a possible corruption of the name Lemuel, thus bringing these two names, so closely associated in the Book of Mormon, into the most intimate relationship, and that in the one instance in which the name of Laman appears. 57 Far more popular among the Arabs as among the Nephites was the name Alma, which can mean a young man, a coat of mail, a mountain, or a sign. 58 While Sam is a perfectly good Egyptian name, it is also the normal Arabic form of Shem, the son of Noah.

The name of Lemuel is not a conventional Hebrew one, for it occurs only in one chapter of the Old Testament (Proverbs 31:1, 4), where it is commonly supposed to be a rather mysterious poetic substitute for Solomon. It is, however, like Lehi, at home in the south desert, where an Edomite text from "a place occupied by tribes descended from Ishmael" bears the title, "The Words of Lemuel, King of Massa." These people, though speaking a language that was almost Arabic, were yet well within the sphere of Jewish religion, for "we have nowhere else any evidence for saying that the Edomites used any other peculiar name for their deity" than "Yahweh, the God of Hebrews." 55
(See "Reexploring the Book of Mormon" John W. Welch, ed. Chapters 66-67)
 

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NAMES IN THE BOM

From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.1, Ch.2)

Strange Names
The stamp of Egypt on Lehi's people may be clearly discerned in the names those people and their descendants. Hebrew and Egyptian names together make up the overwhelming majority and occur in about equal strength, which is exactly what one would expect from Mormon's claim that both languages were used among them (and which would certainly not be the case were Hebrew the only spoken language), but Hittite, Arabic, and Ionian elements are not missing. First, consider a few Egyptian names, setting off the Book of Mormon names (BM) against their Old World equivalents (OW).

I quite disagree with your argument. The OT also translates several Hebrew expressions and Hebrew language structures from the Hebrew Tanach and Smith just copied them from these OT traslations.

About names. If Smith was not a plaguiarist, then he shouldn't use the Greek transliteration Jesus in his writings.

Please, allow me to explain.

The name of the son of God is YESHUA in Hebrew. This comes from the conjunction of two words: YAH, which is the contraction of the name of YHWH, and HOSHEA, which means "salvation".

You can find this name when Moses changed the name of his secretary Hoshea into Yahoshua. By contracting the name it became Yoshua, or Joshua as it is written in English.

The meaning of this name is "YHWH saves", or "Salvation of YHWH".

You can also find the name in the gospel of Matthew: "...for he (YHWH) shall save (Hoshua) his people from their sins."(Chapter 1:21)

You know that there is no other "saviour" but YHWH, it is in the OT that no other saves but him, the god of the bible.

So, having that the son "carries" the name of the father, the salvation still is from YHWH through his son who carries his name. This is why you still praying to YHWH "in the name of the son".

In Greek, the custom was to end the names of men with the letter "s", like Timaeus, Josephus, Elias, Jeremias, Zacharias, etc.

The name Yeshua (which is derivative of Yahoshua) was the Hebrew name of the son of god. But, the Greeks simply do not pronounced it that way. The Greeks transliterated the name Hebrew name Yeshua into the Greek Iesus.

This is how we have inherited the name Jesus today, from the Greeks.

But, by the narration of Joseph Smith, we can find that he did not transliterate it from Hebrew and neither from Egyptian, otherwise he should transliterate the name of the son of god as Yeshua or Yoshua.

As you pointed above, there are several names which have meanings in different languages, and for your information, the name Jesus means nothing in Greek.

In the past, some people used to believe that the name Jesus was a Greek "translation" of the Hebrew name Yeshua, but names cannot be translated, names can be transliterated only.

So, some people said that the Greek name Jesus means "Saviour", but, such is not true either, because in Greek, saviour is written as "sotter".

Then, we know by fact that Jesus is a Greek transliteratiion of the Hebrew name Yeshua.

Do we speak Greek? No. Did the ancient americans spoke Greek? By no means.

Then, we have the scenario that Mr Smith didn't copy such writings from the Hebrew, because the main name, the real important name doesn't fit in his claims.

We might consider his writings only if he used a similar name to Yeshua transliterated to the pronunciation of the ancient peoples of America, but, to say that the son of god appeared to those ancient guys saying that his name was the Greek "Jesus"...no way Jose.

The son of god had not the slightest reason to identify himself with such a Greek name, and neither with the title "Christ" as his "last name".

The worst gramatical error found in English is the name "JesusChrist". The proper way is Christ Jesus, or Jesus the Christ.

Christ is not his last name, Christ is a title. Like to say, President Bush, or Bush the President. You cannot say it as "BushPresident".
 

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I love it. Comparing "scientific reasoning" to one's religious faith. May I suggest a more productive pastime, try leaping as high as you can until you touch the sky. Please let us know how it feels. AND DON"T WEAR GLOVES!!
 
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