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The Bigger the Government…the Smaller the citizen.

Do you agree that the bigger the Government, the smaller the individual citizen become in every way?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 22 40.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 31 56.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 3.6%

  • Total voters
    55

Captain Adverse

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Do you agree with the idea that the bigger the Government, the smaller each citizen becomes?

I am not the originator of this point, although I have recognized it most of my life. But I am curious as to how my peers might think. The following is the argument:

The premise is that everything gets smaller as the government gets bigger. Including:
  • Liberty
  • Individuality
  • Goodness
  • Human Character
That this is both an observable fact and just plain common sense.

We can all recognize that Government does have a certain value when it:

Protects us from foreign attacks, and criminals in our own country; addresses natural and man-made disasters; and when all else fails, acts as a safety net of last resort.

BUT, it must always be of LAST resort; because when government is looked to as the FIRST resort, then individual responsibility tends to diminish.

First to go is Goodness. As people look more and more to government for help, individuals ask themselves "why help others when the government can do it for you?"

Next to go is Human Character. Relying on others to take care of you when you are capable of taking care of yourself is both selfish and the definition of irresponsible. Moreover, in relying on other’s in the form of State largess paid for via taxation creates a sense of ENTITLEMENT. This is soon followed by feelings of ingratitude and resentment at any attempts to modify or limit such largesse.

Then goes Liberty. The more government, the more rules. The more rules, the less liberty. U.S. example: the Federal Register which started out with 2,620 pages of rules in 1936 now has well over 87,000 pages currently. Microsoft Word - fed-reg-pages (llsdc.org)

Finally, when goodness, human character, and liberty dissipate, sacrificed to the power of government and the Collective, we ultimately lose our Individuality…becoming mere cogs in the machine of all pervasive government control.

In my opinion, the old saying "The best government is that which governs least" is how we should all look at centralized power and any desire to expand such power.

So, to the poll question: Do you agree that the bigger the Government, the smaller the individual citizen becomes in every way?

Yes

No

Other.
 
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tshade

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Do you agree with the idea that the bigger the Government, the smaller each citizen becomes?

I am not the originator of this point, although I have recognized it most of my life. But I am curious as to how my peers might think. The following is the argument:

The premise is that everything gets smaller as the government gets bigger. Including:
  • Liberty
  • Individuality
  • Goodness
  • Human Character
That this is both an observable fact and just plain common sense.

We can all recognize that Government does have a certain value when it:

Protects us from foreign attacks, and criminals in our own country; addresses natural and man-made disasters; and when all else fails, acts as a safety net of last resort.

BUT, it must always be of LAST resort; because when government is looked to as the FIRST resort, then individual responsibility tends to diminish.

First to go is Goodness. As people look more and more to government for help, individuals ask themselves "why help others when the government can do it for you?"

Next to go is Human Character. Relying on others to take care of you when you are capable of taking care of yourself is both selfish and the definition of irresponsible. Moreover, in relying on other’s in the form of State largess paid for via taxation creates a sense of ENTITLEMENT. This is soon followed by feelings of ingratitude and resentment at any attempts to modify or limit such largesse.

Then goes Liberty. The more government, the more rules. The more rules, the less liberty. U.S. example: the Federal Register which started out with 2,620 pages of rules in 1936 now has well over 87,000 pages currently. Microsoft Word - fed-reg-pages (llsdc.org)

Finally, when goodness, human character, and liberty dissipate, sacrificed to the power of government and the Collective, we ultimately lose our Individuality…becoming mere cogs in the machine of all pervasive government control.

In my opinion, the old saying "The best government is that which governs least" is how we should all look at centralized power and any desire to expand such power.

So, to the poll question: Do you agree that the bigger the Government, the smaller the individual citizen becomes in every way?

Yes

No

Other.
You forget that WE are the government
 

trixare4kids

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I'm concerned about those who shouldn't really be relying on government, (not those who have no other choice but to depend on their help), but those who can, if they tried would rely on themselves. Many in this group, have become entitled, and feel they're owed and in that sense, these individuals have lost a great sense of self, diminishing their individuality while depending on big brother, or have you, big government.
 

Captain Adverse

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You forget that WE are the government

Hyperbole is not an argument.

Moreover, it is more truthful to declare that WE are the GOVERNED!

The only thing WE do (if not running for office ourselves) is vote for other's to represent us. THEY then make the laws and create administrative agencies; then appoint/hire bureaucrats to administer/enforce the laws, rules, and regulations.
 
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Captain Adverse

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I'm concerned about those who shouldn't really be relying on government, (not those who have no other choice but to depend on their help),...

This raises two responses. First, as long as the government is the FIRST resort, then charity either personal or organizational (Religious, Fraternal, Non-profit) agencies often diminish as more and more people simply expect the government to do everything. Second, the government should be available as the last resort, not the first. The first should be individual responsibility, followed by good natured giving, and support for charitable organizations whether religious or secular.

For example, I will feed a homeless person if he/she asserts hunger. I will buy them footwear, clothes, personal hygiene items. I will not simply give them money, only to see it go to alcohol or drugs. I also give to charitable institutions, and have worked in some on my free time. That is community.

but those who can, if they tried would rely on themselves. Many in this group, have become entitled, and feel they're owed and in that sense, these individuals have lost a great sense of self, diminishing their individuality while depending on big brother, or have you, big government.

Exactly what has been going on in the last few decades, if not longer.
 

gbg3

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Oh my, YES, I agree! In my strong opinion, government should be as small as possible and as close to the citizens it serves as possible. Thus, local governments representing the actual people of a community in as limited a manner as possible. Clearly, there are important functions that need to be provided by states and the federal government (national defense is one of them), but people should make choices for their own lives and take responsibility in every way they are capable of. This, of course, means that we should provide for those in our society who are unable to provide for themselves. But, not for those who are unwilling to provide for themselves.
 

Mycroft

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Do you agree with the idea that the bigger the Government, the smaller each citizen becomes?

I am not the originator of this point, although I have recognized it most of my life. But I am curious as to how my peers might think. The following is the argument:

The premise is that everything gets smaller as the government gets bigger. Including:
  • Liberty
  • Individuality
  • Goodness
  • Human Character
That this is both an observable fact and just plain common sense.

We can all recognize that Government does have a certain value when it:

Protects us from foreign attacks, and criminals in our own country; addresses natural and man-made disasters; and when all else fails, acts as a safety net of last resort.

BUT, it must always be of LAST resort; because when government is looked to as the FIRST resort, then individual responsibility tends to diminish.

First to go is Goodness. As people look more and more to government for help, individuals ask themselves "why help others when the government can do it for you?"

Next to go is Human Character. Relying on others to take care of you when you are capable of taking care of yourself is both selfish and the definition of irresponsible. Moreover, in relying on other’s in the form of State largess paid for via taxation creates a sense of ENTITLEMENT. This is soon followed by feelings of ingratitude and resentment at any attempts to modify or limit such largesse.

Then goes Liberty. The more government, the more rules. The more rules, the less liberty. U.S. example: the Federal Register which started out with 2,620 pages of rules in 1936 now has well over 87,000 pages currently. Microsoft Word - fed-reg-pages (llsdc.org)

Finally, when goodness, human character, and liberty dissipate, sacrificed to the power of government and the Collective, we ultimately lose our Individuality…becoming mere cogs in the machine of all pervasive government control.

In my opinion, the old saying "The best government is that which governs least" is how we should all look at centralized power and any desire to expand such power.

So, to the poll question: Do you agree that the bigger the Government, the smaller the individual citizen becomes in every way?

Yes

No

Other.
I agree with your thesis, but I'll add one other result under Human Character: Loss of sense of value.

If you work, save, shop and finally take on the responsibility that comes with buying a large ticket item...such as shelter...you tend to value that item more and take care of it. When the government GIVES you that item you tend to value that item less and NOT take care of it. An example is "public housing". It looks so nice when it's newly built, but after a few years it looks like a slum because the people who were given apartments tend not to value stuff that they didn't work for.
 

Captain Adverse

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Trying to correlate "goodness" and "human character" to the number of pages in the Federal Register is palm reading or phrenology-level stuff.

Which only goes to show your own confirmation bias.

Each of the four points is a separate diminishment.

LIBERTY is the quality that is affected by ever-growing numbers of laws, rules, and regulations.
 

eohrnberger

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I'm concerned about those who shouldn't really be relying on government, (not those who have no other choice but to depend on their help), but those who can, if they tried would rely on themselves. Many in this group, have become entitled, and feel they're owed and in that sense, these individuals have lost a great sense of self, diminishing their individuality while depending on big brother, or have you, big government.
Valid concerns. The government big enough and powerful enough to give you all you want is also the government big enough and powerful enough to take all that you have.

I'm more concerned that some force the government to expand their powers into enforcement roles the government shouldn't be in.
Some have expressed that conservative speech, conservative political positions and opinions are violence, and if that becomes the accepted as violence, the next step is that the government should step in with its criminal justice system and dole out punishment for it. What we have seen from cancel culture is the start down this path, as I'm sure those who do the cancelling would be overjoyed to have the government at their beck and call to perform the enforcement and punishment part.
 

Captain Adverse

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Valid concerns. The government big enough and powerful enough to give you all you want is also the government big enough and powerful enough to take all that you have.

BINGO! Give this man the big prize! :)
I'm more concerned that some force the government to expand their powers into enforcement roles the government shouldn't be in.
Some have expressed that conservative speech, conservative political positions and opinions are violence, and if that becomes the accepted as violence, the next step is that the government should step in with its criminal justice system and dole out punishment for it. What we have seen from cancel culture is the start down this path, as I'm sure those who do the cancelling would be overjoyed to have the government at their beck and call to perform the enforcement and punishment part.
Truth.
 

SNOWFLAKE

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laugh_40x40.gif

OH, this is too rich, so let's take this apart:

Canada, we all agree, is left of the U.S. where we citizens have things like universal healthcare and a centralized government.

SO.........

Liberty: The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Denmark, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Estonia, and Germany and Sweden (tied in 9th place). Selected countries rank as follows: Japan (11), the United Kingdom and the United States (tied in 17th place)

Individuality: The fundamental issue addressed by this dimension is the degree of interdependence a society maintains among its members. It has to do with whether people´s self-image is defined in terms of “I” or “We”.
Canada scores 80 on this dimension (its highest dimension score) and can be characterized as an Individualist culture.

Goodness: talk about something being subjective!
The North American country ranked first in both the Quality of Life and Social Purpose subrankings, meaning that it is seen as a stable and safe society in which individuals can develop and prosper, and is open, fair and equitable.
The Top 10 Countries in the World:
1.
Canada
2. Japan
3. Germany
4. Switzerland
5. Australia
6. United States
7. New Zealand
8. United Kingdom
9. Sweden
10. Netherlands

Human Character: Canadians see themselves — and are seen by many abroad — as more socially progressive, communal, and courteous than Americans. These and other benevolent traits like kindness, tolerance, humility, and decency are proclaimed as stereotypic traits of Canadians.
Canadians take great pride in their National Health care system (contrasting their success with the coronavirus), strong social support systems, low-cost preschool, elementary, high school, and college education, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and other federal institutions.
Americans have been positively described by Canadians as outgoing, confident, and assertive, or criticized as bombastic, selfish, and aggressive (particularly during the Trump administration).
Canadians have been positively described by Americans as modest, respectful, and tolerant, or negatively, as boring and withdrawn.
There are certain areas of concern which particularly challenge the United States:
There are greater demands on individuals and families (in contrast to Canada’s health, social, and educational supports).
Numerous experiences with aggression, guns, and violence threaten the social fabric and sense of belonging and community.
The brutal effects of slavery still linger, while prejudice, racism, and extremism undermine the foundational ideals.
Disparities between the ultra-wealthy and the needy contribute to polarization, demoralization, and authoritarianism.

What this OP does prove, is something we have known all along: America does rule when it comes to:

Chest Beating
Bleating
Self-Importance
Thinking physical might equals "Character".
 

bongsaway

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Do you agree with the idea that the bigger the Government, the smaller each citizen becomes?

I am not the originator of this point, although I have recognized it most of my life. But I am curious as to how my peers might think. The following is the argument:

The premise is that everything gets smaller as the government gets bigger. Including:
  • Liberty
  • Individuality
  • Goodness
  • Human Character
That this is both an observable fact and just plain common sense.

We can all recognize that Government does have a certain value when it:

Protects us from foreign attacks, and criminals in our own country; addresses natural and man-made disasters; and when all else fails, acts as a safety net of last resort.

BUT, it must always be of LAST resort; because when government is looked to as the FIRST resort, then individual responsibility tends to diminish.

First to go is Goodness. As people look more and more to government for help, individuals ask themselves "why help others when the government can do it for you?"

Next to go is Human Character. Relying on others to take care of you when you are capable of taking care of yourself is both selfish and the definition of irresponsible. Moreover, in relying on other’s in the form of State largess paid for via taxation creates a sense of ENTITLEMENT. This is soon followed by feelings of ingratitude and resentment at any attempts to modify or limit such largesse.

Then goes Liberty. The more government, the more rules. The more rules, the less liberty. U.S. example: the Federal Register which started out with 2,620 pages of rules in 1936 now has well over 87,000 pages currently. Microsoft Word - fed-reg-pages (llsdc.org)

Finally, when goodness, human character, and liberty dissipate, sacrificed to the power of government and the Collective, we ultimately lose our Individuality…becoming mere cogs in the machine of all pervasive government control.

In my opinion, the old saying "The best government is that which governs least" is how we should all look at centralized power and any desire to expand such power.

So, to the poll question: Do you agree that the bigger the Government, the smaller the individual citizen becomes in every way?

Yes

No

Other.
This idea the gop has of small government is a pipe dream. It is the gop who for decades told their base over and over, government, bad. Ever since reagan and the gop leadership has proven that to their base by keeping them poor by voting against anything that would raise their standard of living or their standard of education. There is a reason the southern states are the poorest decade after decade, they are run by republicans who tell their base government bad.

I say start spending some of our tax dollars on we the people instead of giving them away to corporate america and the super wealthy along with the military industrial complex and the pentagon. Life would be better for most people if we did. Government doesn't have to be bad as the dems are now proving.
 

madman

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The government will continue to grow regardless how you feel about it.

Hell, can you imagine having the size of the government NOW that they had back when the wrote the declaration of independence? Do you TRULY think that would work TODAY? You would be delusional if you think so. A growing county = growing government.

small government speak is nothing more than a conservative talking point.
 

Allan

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The government will continue to grow regardless how you feel about it.

Hell, can you imagine having the size of the government NOW that they had back when the wrote the declaration of independence? Do you TRULY think that would work TODAY? You would be delusional if you think so. A growing county = growing government.

small government speak is nothing more than a conservative talking point.
You're spot on. The operations involved in governing a country as large and complex as the US requires enormous expertise and resources.

"Small government" exists today only in failed states.
 

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Yes to the concept of charity before government with government as a last resort.
government isn't about just welfare...it is also about protecting citizens and infrastructure, etc...not having regulations that protect citizens led to a building collapsing in Surfside, Fl and more than 100 people dying...so, having government isn't evil.
 

eohrnberger

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This idea the gop has of small government is a pipe dream. It is the gop who for decades told their base over and over, government, bad. Ever since reagan and the gop leadership has proven that to their base by keeping them poor by voting against anything that would raise their standard of living or their standard of education. There is a reason the southern states are the poorest decade after decade, they are run by republicans who tell their base government bad.

I say start spending some of our tax dollars on we the people instead of giving them away to corporate america and the super wealthy along with the military industrial complex and the pentagon. Life would be better for most people if we did. Government doesn't have to be bad as the dems are now proving.
If you want 'we the people' to have more money, why have government confiscate it in the first place?
Why not just let 'we the people' keep more of their money in the first place?
 

bongsaway

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If you want 'we the people' to have more money, why have government confiscate it in the first place?
Why not just let 'we the people' keep more of their money in the first place?
Who would run the country and with what monies? We have taxes so most will benefit. If we just let people keep what they earned, we would still be driving on dirt roads.
 

eohrnberger

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Who would run the country and with what monies? We have taxes so most will benefit. If we just let people keep what they earned, we would still be driving on dirt roads.
"Why not just let 'we the people' keep more of their money in the first place?"
Doesn't say that no taxes going to be paid.

The federal government is notorious for spending beyond it's means, as well as notoriously inefficient and notoriously duplicative in the federal agencies efforts.
 

RealityNow

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People who lust to live in a Savage Society... Maybe they should pack up and go find a deserted Island if they can't understand what is governance and what is the responsibility to live in a Governed Society.

Government WILL Grow as it has always been designed to do. IF people were "honest and civil" and did not do things that can and will and does harm others, there would likely not need to be such details to Regulatory Governance. But, the Malice, Greed, Sloth, and Vile that people engage, causes people to do thing, that requires the Government to create and expand Regulatory Governance.

Examples:
  • Even in a city community, there has to be Property Standards, because some people are "slobs" and "engage in activities" that degrade the structural elements of community...
  • Some Business will do anything for the sake of Money...
  • Some Individual are criminal of every sort and type
  • Some people are driven by Savagery of any and every sort
It takes a system of Governance, within a Governed Society, to enact laws, polices and regulation to protect and improve conditions and environment as well as activities for the greater benefit of the greater society.
 

highroller

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If you want 'we the people' to have more money, why have government confiscate it in the first place?
Why not just let 'we the people' keep more of their money in the first place?
How does tax cuts for the rich allow ‘the people’ to keep more money if the cost of government services increases to offset the reduction in expected tax revenues?
 

ttwtt78640

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government isn't about just welfare...it is also about protecting citizens and infrastructure, etc...not having regulations that protect citizens led to a building collapsing in Surfside, Fl and more than 100 people dying...so, having government isn't evil.

That is a rather odd example of good government working to protect folks. It seems that those folks were relying on government which waited until the building collapsed to take action.
 
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