The Benefits of School Uniforms and why we should have them. (1 Viewer)

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

This Topic is in the Wrong Forum, can an admin or mod please move this to the Education Forum? thanks

Uniforms: States should consider mandatory School Uniforms in Public Schools. I support School Uniforms because it would be a source of income to the Public Schools that can be very well reinvested into the individual student. Only people that have children in school have to pay for these Uniforms. The Public Schools can take a slice of the chedder from Uniforms and other Clothing and Clothing Accessory profits and use it to pay for expenses, making it less of a burden on the school to always need more money (Yeah, they're gonna want more money no matter what though).

There is also a discipline factor in Uniforms. There will not be a rivalry with clothing where some douchebag kids clothes are cooler than some other kids. My Public School in Jr. High had Uniforms and it was great.

Many people find that Uniforms cripple individuality. Well, why should our clothes be such an important part to our Individuality? I thought were individuals for all the different things we do and think about, not because we wear different clothes. "Hey! I'm an Individual! I wear a Slipknot T-Shirt! I Have Rights!"

I think that our Public Schools in general need to fix themselves and not believe they're entitled to our Money and then they spend the money we give them with impunity on new Scoreboards and DVDs/Flatscreens in classrooms and then they're like "Uh oh, our Books are out of date, we don't have tables, we can't cover the overhead anymore. We need more money!".

Also, when the weekend came or when there was vacation from school, I felt such a strong feeling of freedom when I didn't need to wear a uniform. I didn't have an urge to wear my uniform outside of school and conform to facism. I'm very much against facism, as facist School Uniforms may sound.

What do you think about Uniforms In Public Schools?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Uniforms: States should consider mandatory School Uniforms in Public Schools. I support School Uniforms because it would be a source of income to the Public Schools that can be very well reinvested into the individual student.

Why not do it the right way and increase funding. PRIVATE schools can mandate what a person wears. Dont try to impose a tax on Americans for a useless issue and then call spending it on school expenses "re-investing."

Only people that have children in school have to pay for these Uniforms.

Oh so thats your solution. Make parents who may not even be able to afford the additional expense foot the bill for conformity. I thought public schools were supposed to be free?

(Yeah, they're gonna want more money no matter what though).

Why include this? Its devastating to your arguement. Education can always need more money.

There is also a discipline factor in Uniforms. There will not be a rivalry with clothing where some douchebag kids clothes are cooler than some other kids.

Parents discipline their children, including what they can wear.

My Public School in Jr. High had Uniforms and it was great.

I wouldnt have thought it was great, and a great many wouldnt either. What is your point? That because you enjoy conformity and would supress individuality you think others should too?

Many people find that Uniforms cripple individuality. Well, why should our clothes be such an important part to our Individuality? I thought were individuals for all the different things we do and think about, not because we wear different clothes.

Wow... you showed your hard so quickly. Not being told to be like everyone else in any aspect stiffles individuality. When we CHOSE what we wear in the morning, that is one of the different things we do.

"Hey! I'm an Individual! I wear a Slipknot T-Shirt! I Have Rights!"

This statement, considering that it was said in the tone of sarcasm, shows pricesly how authoritarian your worldview is. Billo and Tecoyah are going to have a fun time hazing you.

I think that our Public Schools in general need to fix themselves

And yet you propose a meaningless solution...

and not believe they're entitled to our Money and then they spend the money we give them with impunity on new Scoreboards and DVDs/Flatscreens in classrooms and then they're like "Uh oh, our Books are out of date, we don't have tables, we can't cover the overhead anymore. We need more money!".

They believe they're entitled to our money because it is PUBLIC SCHOOL. How they spend their money usually has to do with more powerful computer hardware, and better advanced placement biological and chemical labs.

Have you looked into the spending #'s? The schools in districts with higher property tax revenue generally have more money to spend (wealthy parents donating) on things like new football fields and scoreboards to attract even more wealthy parents.

Also, when the weekend came or when there was vacation from school, I felt such a strong feeling of freedom when I didn't need to wear a uniform. I didn't have an urge to wear my uniform outside of school and conform to facism. I'm very much against facism, as facist School Uniforms may sound.

You both made and debunked your entire point. By the way, I just followed your advice and layed under my mattress for a few hours so that I could enjoy the freedom afterwards. It was great!:rofl

What do you think about Uniforms In Public Schools?

If you think I was mean, wait until you hear what the rest of DP has to say about uniforms.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Uniforms: States should consider mandatory School Uniforms in Public Schools. I support School Uniforms because it would be a source of income to the Public Schools that can be very well reinvested into the individual student. Only people that have children in school have to pay for these Uniforms. The Public Schools can take a slice of the chedder from Uniforms and other Clothing and Clothing Accessory profits and use it to pay for expenses, making it less of a burden on the school to always need more money (Yeah, they're gonna want more money no matter what though).

Wait, so you want parents who may aready be struggling economically to waste their money on a useless uniform? Uhh let me tell you something, public schools have all the funding they need. It's the ciriculum that needs to be changed. Kids run down the block to school when they're 4,5, and 6 yet as they reach middle and high school they often skip classes and fake sick. They lose all interest in learning and being creative because it is stifled by rigid schedules, cramped desks, mandatory homework and etc... Just like the **** ciriculum sucks the individuality and creativity out of them, turning them into future cubicle white collar workers, uniforms take it to the next level. Let me tell you as someone who went to a uniform school, uniforms do nothing except make you even more uncomfortable in your learning enviroment.

There is also a discipline factor in Uniforms. There will not be a rivalry with clothing where some douchebag kids clothes are cooler than some other kids. My Public School in Jr. High had Uniforms and it was great.

douchebag clothing is just a natural byproduct of capitalist consumerism. One company has cooler advertisements and is more expensive and flashy, so thus it's cooler.

Again when I went to a uniform school the same was true. Kids who wore polo, ralph lauren, or Izod shirts were considered to have cooler clothing than the kids who bought their shirts at GAP and TjMax. This may come to a shock to capitalists, but shockingly the kids who wore GAP could be cool kids as weirdly people are not judged by material possesions.

Many people find that Uniforms cripple individuality. Well, why should our clothes be such an important part to our Individuality? I thought were individuals for all the different things we do and think about, not because we wear different clothes. "Hey! I'm an Individual! I wear a Slipknot T-Shirt! I Have Rights!"

What do you wear? I'm pretty sure you don't walk around in phat farm and Sean jean gangsta jump suits. Why? Because it's not your character, personality, or individuality. wearing different clothes is a way of distinguishing yourself and expressing yourself. Especially as a teenager.

I think that our Public Schools in general need to fix themselves

I agree, how about something like This?

Also, when the weekend came or when there was vacation from school, I felt such a strong feeling of freedom when I didn't need to wear a uniform. I didn't have an urge to wear my uniform outside of school and conform to facism. I'm very much against facism, as facist School Uniforms may sound.

So why would we want our children in a fascist unfree learning enviroment? Oh yeah I forgot! They're comfortable there.

What do you think about Uniforms In Public Schools?

I think they're crap.





[EDIT=URL Wasn't working]

 

[Patrickt]

Public schools in Mexico where I live have uniforms. The benefits are: they're cheap, everyone one from very poor to middle class wear the same thing, students learn to be individuals rather than dressing as individuals. The students here just take them for granted. Oh, and no one has their underwear hanging out.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Public schools in Mexico where I live have uniforms. The benefits are: they're cheap, everyone one from very poor to middle class wear the same thing, students learn to be individuals rather than dressing as individuals. The students here just take them for granted. Oh, and no one has their underwear hanging out.

Last time I checked, a blazer and tie and dress shoes aren't as cheap as a t-shirt and sneakers. Also they do not become individuals. Anywhere you look uniforms turn you into a drone. Take the army for instance...

 

[Pen]

I'm leaning toward being in favor of public school uniforms or at least more stringent rules on proper attire. (Yes, I'm an old fart).

When our daughter was a teenager, she told us of the "types" of students in highschool based upon the clothing they wore. I honestly have no problem with removing those social stereotypes while in school via uniforms, and save the expression of individuality for outside the learning system. Proper attire is a rule for adults in the work place and most social functions; why shouldn't a similar obligation for appropriate dress be enforced in our schools?

Peer pressure and the wish for acceptance is difficult enough for our young people. I see no problem with neutralizing one aspect of how teens judge one another with the advent of uniforms.

However, the public schools that have made that choice have not made the uniforms a "revenue enhancer," and I object strongly to that notion. The uniform choices for parents allowed them to make purchases within their means. The Izod vs. Walmart difference doesn't change, but I believe it is an improvement that improves the learning experience over what we have now.

PS: Daughter chose the Hard Rock/Doper group because all you had to do is wear black and do dope, and it was the easiest group for her to join with 18 school changes due to moves. Don't think for a minute that her teacher's weren't influenced by the appearance she chose. She screamed "loser" and was treated like one.

 

[Pen]

Public schools in Mexico where I live have uniforms. The benefits are: they're cheap, everyone one from very poor to middle class wear the same thing, students learn to be individuals rather than dressing as individuals. The students here just take them for granted. Oh, and no one has their underwear hanging out.

Or boobs, belly buttons, and g-strings exposed? What a concept for reducing distractions from learning! :shock:

 

[Patrickt]

The uniforms my nephews wear in school are washable slacks, cotton shirt, sweater, plain black shoes, black socks. They are bought from the same store and are quite inexpensive. On the other hand, Air Jordan sneakers, designer jeans, designer t-shirt, hooded sweatshirt, jacket with sports logo, and designer underwear for your friends to admire are considerably more expensive. I realize one doesn't have to wear the expesnsive stuff but no one wants to look poorer than the next kid. My real favorite though are the kids who spend a fortune in used clothing stores to dress down.

It isn't clothes that make a drone it's the mind. I met more individuals in the military where we all dressed the same than I did in college where we all thought the same, oh, and dressed the same, too.

 

[LeftyHenry]

The uniforms my nephews wear in school are washable slacks, cotton shirt, sweater, plain black shoes, black socks. They are bought from the same store and are quite inexpensive. On the other hand, Air Jordan sneakers, designer jeans, designer t-shirt, hooded sweatshirt, jacket with sports logo, and designer underwear for your friends to admire are considerably more expensive. I realize one doesn't have to wear the expesnsive stuff but no one wants to look poorer than the next kid. My real favorite though are the kids who spend a fortune in used clothing stores to dress down.

You think there aren't designer uniforms in schools? I've said already that in my school where there were uniforms, people still competed in clothing. It's just capitalism. Uniforms don't get rid of that.

 

[Patrickt]

That would depend on what the school wants. I was merely describing my experience here in Mexico with school uniforms.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

That would depend on what the school wants. I was merely describing my experience here in Mexico with school uniforms.

Your experience isnt universal.

 

[Pen]

Your experience isnt universal.

That is obvious, and doesn't change a thing about the value of kids not competing based upon what they are wearing, and more importantly not being judged by their clothing.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

That is obvious, and doesn't change a thing about the value of kids not competing based upon what they are wearing, and more importantly not being judged by their clothing.

People will express themselves, and how is this competition bad? You'll be judged no matter what, kids are harsh.

 

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

Why not do it the right way and increase funding. PRIVATE schools can mandate what a person wears. Dont try to impose a tax on Americans for a useless issue and then call spending it on school expenses "re-investing."



Oh so thats your solution. Make parents who may not even be able to afford the additional expense foot the bill for conformity. I thought public schools were supposed to be free?



Why include this? Its devastating to your arguement. Education can always need more money.



Parents discipline their children, including what they can wear.



I wouldnt have thought it was great, and a great many wouldnt either. What is your point? That because you enjoy conformity and would supress individuality you think others should too?



Wow... you showed your hard so quickly. Not being told to be like everyone else in any aspect stiffles individuality. When we CHOSE what we wear in the morning, that is one of the different things we do.



This statement, considering that it was said in the tone of sarcasm, shows pricesly how authoritarian your worldview is. Billo and Tecoyah are going to have a fun time hazing you.



And yet you propose a meaningless solution...



They believe they're entitled to our money because it is PUBLIC SCHOOL. How they spend their money usually has to do with more powerful computer hardware, and better advanced placement biological and chemical labs.

Have you looked into the spending #'s? The schools in districts with higher property tax revenue generally have more money to spend (wealthy parents donating) on things like new football fields and scoreboards to attract even more wealthy parents.



You both made and debunked your entire point. By the way, I just followed your advice and layed under my mattress for a few hours so that I could enjoy the freedom afterwards. It was great!:rofl



If you think I was mean, wait until you hear what the rest of DP has to say about uniforms.

I don't mean to double post but I find it easier when I'm answering questions of two other people and responding to criticism of two other people, so here we go.

1) I don't believe that increasing the funds for Public School is always the answer to a financial crisis that schools have due to missmanagement of finances. One Set of Clothes = Funding for the Individual Student. Rather than one big check for the schools General Expenses. I had a very poor experiance with my public schools who recieved an abundance of money yet always found themselves in some kind of crisis.

2) Public Schools aren't free even without Parents paying more. Parents might be able to afford School Uniforms by paying less taxes that would be saved for Public Schools. I would expect that parent paid Uniforms would make the tax collection of average Americans less of a burden on them, including parents who send their children off to school.

3) That comment was made out of how schools presently ask for money, spend the money carelessly and with impunity, and then ask for money again.

4) I agree, the primary source of discipline should be from the parents but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist elsewhere and when it exists elsewhere it isn't ment to replace the authority of the parents. Martial Arts and Teachers for example. Uniforms should be in no way a replacement of the parents authority in disciplining their children.

5) I made this comment so that people wouldn't bother me with comments like "Did you ever wear a Uniform?! How would you like it?! Typical Facist!" , not so that I can say I'm more important than somebody else.

The rest: So I guess I'm "authoritative" in wanting Children to see how they are individuals without what kind of clothes they wear. A few of your last comments were just low blows to me and what I said and I wont give them any other response than this one. Sorry if the entire website will feel the same way although it appears to me that this is a website for Debates and other opinions should be welcomed in order for a Debate to actually happend. Not "hazed" which is defined as: To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks. Also, it is authoritative to withhold our Income or tax us heavily and then let the Government do as they wish with our money dispite the needs of individuals who would much rather see their money going to roadrepair or local police.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I don't mean to double post but I find it easier when I'm answering questions of two other people and responding to criticism of two other people, so here we go.

1) I don't believe that increasing the funds for Public School is always the answer to a financial crisis that schools have due to missmanagement of finances. One Set of Clothes = Funding for the Individual Student. Rather than one big check for the schools General Expenses. I had a very poor experiance with my public schools who recieved an abundance of money yet always found themselves in some kind of crisis.

2) Public Schools aren't free even without Parents paying more. Parents might be able to afford School Uniforms by paying less taxes that would be saved for Public Schools. I would expect that parent paid Uniforms would make the tax collection of average Americans less of a burden on them, including parents who send their children off to school.

3) That comment was made out of how schools presently ask for money, spend the money carelessly and with impunity, and then ask for money again.

4) I agree, the primary source of discipline should be from the parents but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist elsewhere and when it exists elsewhere it isn't ment to replace the authority of the parents. Martial Arts and Teachers for example. Uniforms should be in no way a replacement of the parents authority in disciplining their children.

5) I made this comment so that people wouldn't bother me with comments like "Did you ever wear a Uniform?! How would you like it?! Typical Facist!" , not so that I can say I'm more important than somebody else.

You didnt refute any of my points, so there is nothing to be said about the above.

The rest: So I guess I'm "authoritative" in wanting Children to see how they are individuals without what kind of clothes they wear.

And all I hear is you trying to make something mandatory that I wouldnt pay for as a parent, nor support as a student. What your arguement amounts to is "Even if we take away a little bit of individuality, you can still be individuals."

Im sorry but that slope sounds damn slippery, especially when students can barely express themselves as things are now. Replace the word individuality with liberty and you'll see a much darker side of me.

A few of your last comments were just low blows to me and what I said and I wont give them any other response than this one.

Well when you get all sanctimonious on your very first posts here, the veterans here (and I'm not even one of them, I just got here first) tend to make low blows. However they were not ad hominem attacks, and were questions I intended for you to answer in order to expose you for the Authoritarian that you are. Thats what we libertarians do, nothing personal.

Sorry if the entire website will feel the same way although it appears to me that this is a website for Debates and other opinions should be welcomed in order for a Debate to actually happend.

It would be presumptuous of me to assume that everyone on the board would agree with me. New opinions are welcome, then after the meet and greet we proceed to **** all over the foolish ones that presume to tell us how we the people should live.

Mandatory is the buzzword

Not "hazed" which is defined as: To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks.

If the answers to my questions would humiliate you, perhaps some introspection is necessary.

Also, it is authoritative to withhold our Income or tax us heavily and then let the Government do as they wish with our money dispite the needs of individuals who would much rather see their money going to roadrepair or local police.

Im not sure I follow your logic here. First of all when did I suggest withholding taxpayer income, or increased taxation. I am for far less taxation and government spending, but increased education funding.

 

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

Wait, so you want parents who may aready be struggling economically to waste their money on a useless uniform? Uhh let me tell you something, public schools have all the funding they need. It's the ciriculum that needs to be changed. Kids run down the block to school when they're 4,5, and 6 yet as they reach middle and high school they often skip classes and fake sick. They lose all interest in learning and being creative because it is stifled by rigid schedules, cramped desks, mandatory homework and etc... Just like the **** ciriculum sucks the individuality and creativity out of them, turning them into future cubicle white collar workers, uniforms take it to the next level. Let me tell you as someone who went to a uniform school, uniforms do nothing except make you even more uncomfortable in your learning enviroment.



douchebag clothing is just a natural byproduct of capitalist consumerism. One company has cooler advertisements and is more expensive and flashy, so thus it's cooler.

Again when I went to a uniform school the same was true. Kids who wore polo, ralph lauren, or Izod shirts were considered to have cooler clothing than the kids who bought their shirts at GAP and TjMax. This may come to a shock to capitalists, but shockingly the kids who wore GAP could be cool kids as weirdly people are not judged by material possesions.



What do you wear? I'm pretty sure you don't walk around in phat farm and Sean jean gangsta jump suits. Why? Because it's not your character, personality, or individuality. wearing different clothes is a way of distinguishing yourself and expressing yourself. Especially as a teenager.



I agree, how about something like This?



So why would we want our children in a fascist unfree learning enviroment? Oh yeah I forgot! They're comfortable there.



I think they're crap.





[EDIT=URL Wasn't working]

1) I left the variable of parents who may not be able to afford uniforms out. No, I do not expect Poor Parents to shell out money for anything the school asks of them. I agree, the cirriciulum sucks just as bad as the poor financial decisions. Can I ask how or why Uniforms may make someone even more uncomfortable with their learning environment?

2 and 3) Exactly, Americans are Spoiled enough as it is. If something as absolute and simple as clothes define your individuality, thats more of a problem than Uniforms ever could be.

4) I like Hawaiian shirts, Plaid Shirts and Corduroy Pants. But I'm not the Hawaiian Shirt Corduroy pants guy. I'm more closer to being the Big Guy with Long Hair who laughs louder and more readily than other folks if I'm not the Media Hardware Linux Geek to people who know me better.

5) I'll have to get back to you on that link. Looks rather interesting actually.

6) Ever since the 6th grade I thought that schools were unfree facist learning environments, with and without uniforms. As you said, the cirriculum sucks.

 

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

I didn't refute because I don't believe that non-uniforms are necessarily wrong (and they wouldn't be if kids didn't worship Materialism), and I already stated a couple of times that individuality isn't in our clothes so I did refute that. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding anything there.

What your arguement amounts to is "Even if we take away a little bit of individuality, you can still be individuals."

Thats what you may want me to say, but I've said that children should explore other aspects of being an individual rather than just what they wear. I'm an individual because I study computer programming, use the linux operating system, learn musical instruments and play them and over-analyze even the silliest of movies both in plot and in the creative staff so that I can be my own best consultant for when I start making media. I'm not an individual because I wear Hawaiian shirts and let my hair grow.

However they were not ad hominem attacks, and were questions I intended for you to answer in order to expose you for the Authoritarian that you are. Thats what we libertarians do, nothing personal.

Supporting School Uniforms does not make me Authoritarian. Hell, would it be authoritarian to say "All Citizens must Own Guns because it is their Duty to keep this Country free from those who want to strip us of our rights" ? I would certianly think not. And I don't think the idea of Anti-Materialism is authoritarian either. I will not argue that School Uniforms are not facists though. But Public School as we have it today certianlly isn't all that libertarian if you ask me. After all, you and your parents will get threatened with jail time if you don't goto school.

 

[Pen]

People will express themselves, and how is this competition bad? You'll be judged no matter what, kids are harsh.

You have missed my main point. I believe uniforms would go a long way from keeping that nonsense out of the classroom and learning environment. Kids can express themselves off campus to any extent their parents will allow.

For those complaining that there would be an additional cost to parents, I would ask why? Clothes are necessary for school anyway, and I don't see how that would be more expensive than the latest "trendy" look.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I didn't refute because I don't believe that non-uniforms are necessarily wrong (and they wouldn't be if kids didn't worship Materialism), and I already stated a couple of times that individuality isn't in our clothes so I did refute that. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding anything there.

And I explained that our clothing is still an aspect of our individuality and how we chose to express ourselves, what is your counter-arguement to my percieved slippery slope?

Thats what you may want me to say...

Its what I think you believe and what I'm trying to get you to admit to. Either tell me fascism is inherantly wrong, or tell me (as I believe) that you're willing to tolerate that 1st step down the slippery slope of a mild amount of it.

I'm an individual because I study computer programming, use the linux operating system, learn musical instruments and play them and over-analyze even the silliest of movies both in plot and in the creative staff so that I can be my own best consultant for when I start making media. I'm not an individual because I wear Hawaiian shirts and let my hair grow.

Thats fantastic for you, and in no way addresses the point.

Supporting School Uniforms does not make me Authoritarian. Hell, would it be authoritarian to say "All Citizens must Own Guns because it is their Duty to keep this Country free from those who want to strip us of our rights"?

No, that would be the last thing "the authority" would want. And its also making ownership mandatory, which I am against. I think a well armed populace is the best defence against tyranny, but those arms should be taken up in defence of the constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic.

I would certianly think not. And I don't think the idea of Anti-Materialism is authoritarian either.

But forced anti-materialism is. What is your beef with materialism? Let me guess... you feel that it promotes selfishness, and perhaps atheism?

I will not argue that School Uniforms are not facists though.

There it is, hanging out all pink and naked.

But Public School as we have it today certianlly isn't all that libertarian if you ask me. After all, you and your parents will get threatened with jail time if you don't goto school.

Just because its bad doesnt mean i'd want to allow you to make it worse. How about an actual solution?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

You have missed my main point.

Dont presume to tell me what I have missed, just because I consider your point to be irrelevant.

I believe uniforms would go a long way from keeping that nonsense out of the classroom and learning environment. Kids can express themselves off campus to any extent their parents will allow.

So no expression on campus says you? Thanks for making my point clearer, fascist.

For those complaining that there would be an additional cost to parents, I would ask why? Clothes are necessary for school anyway, and I don't see how that would be more expensive than the latest "trendy" look.

If I already took my kids shopping for fall clothes, only to find that your type imposed a rule that would not only make the money I spent pointless and redundant considering I would have to pay it again.

 

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

And I explained that our clothing is still an aspect of our individuality and how we chose to express ourselves, what is your counter-arguement to my percieved slippery slope?

I said that clothes aren't what makes us individuals, I didn't say clothes are not an aspect of individuality.

Its what I think you believe and what I'm trying to get you to admit to. Either tell me fascism is inherantly wrong, or tell me (as I believe) that you're willing to tolerate that 1st step down the slippery slope of a mild amount of it.

Well I don't want you to think of me differently if I have to convince you that I'm not facist. I also don't understand my second choice of what I should tell you.

Thats fantastic for you, and in no way addresses the point.

I think it does and I don't know how to make it good enough for you. The main point here as far as individuality goes, is that you're very much an individual with or without uniforms in your academic life and your freedom to wear what you want still would exist outside of the academic life.

No, that would be the last thing "the authority" would want. And its also making ownership mandatory, which I am against. I think a well armed populace is the best defence against tyranny, but those arms should be taken up in defence of the constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

But forced anti-materialism is. What is your beef with materialism? Let me guess... you feel that it promotes selfishness, and perhaps atheism?

I'm not a religious person. Excuse me for using the word worship. I just usually find Materialism as a contributing factor to Willful Ignorance, Apathy, Passivity and Over-Indulgence. A true Facist would want a populace to be Willfully Ignorant, Apathetic to reform, Passive with the problems, and beOver-Indulgent in what the facist government promises them, and most definantly would want everyone to be defenseless.

I'm not against Material Worship or Celebrity Worship or Popculture Worship because it doesn't worship God. I'm against Material Worship, Celebrity Worship, and Popculture worship because it Worships Materialism, Celebrities and Popculture.

There it is, hanging out all pink and naked.

I won't convince you that I'm not a facist. I'd prefer it if you came to that realization yourself. As offensive as I find these claims, I will not defend myself. Though I would appreciate it if you took the whistle off me.

Just because its bad doesnt mean i'd want to allow you to make it worse. How about an actual solution?

To make Public School worse by implementing Uniforms would mean that I'm using Uniforms are a cure for all the problems Public School has.

No, I know that there are other problems in Public School that I know you and I would definantly see eye to eye on.

This talk about Uniforms isn't a solution to fix all the problems Public School has, and each school has their own unique problems, and hell, maybe even in some communities Materialism doesn't rule the minds of most people and thus I wouldn't find Uniforms necessary. This is for a different topic alltogether. This my solution against Materialism, not a solution for Public School problems in general.

 

[LeftyHenry]

1) I left the variable of parents who may not be able to afford uniforms out. No, I do not expect Poor Parents to shell out money for anything the school asks of them. I agree, the cirriciulum sucks just as bad as the poor financial decisions. Can I ask how or why Uniforms may make someone even more uncomfortable with their learning environment?

Depends what type of uniform I guess. I had a blazer and tie in my uniform. Let me tell you, on those hot days last period, I thought of nothing besides taking that straight jacket off.

2 and 3) Exactly, Americans are Spoiled enough as it is. If something as absolute and simple as clothes define your individuality, thats more of a problem than Uniforms ever could be.

Clothes are part of your individuality. The way you choose to dress can explain alot about your attitude and state of mind.

4) I like Hawaiian shirts, Plaid Shirts and Corduroy Pants. But I'm not the Hawaiian Shirt Corduroy pants guy. I'm more closer to being the Big Guy with
Long Hair who laughs louder and more readily than other folks if I'm not the Media Hardware Linux Geek to people who know me better.

But whether you know it or not, those clothes are part of your personality and character.

5) I'll have to get back to you on that link. Looks rather interesting actually.

Yeah I think that something like that is the idea. Although if it were me maybe I'd have like half structured half free learning just to make sure kid who are bad at math or history don't completely ignore it.

6) Ever since the 6th grade I thought that schools were unfree facist learning environments, with and without uniforms. As you said, the cirriculum sucks.

I agree 100%.

 

[Jay R]

:twocents: Just my two cents here.

When I went to school I wore a uniform as did (and do) the majority of school children in the UK. It never did me any harm and was quantifiably far easier than no uniform would have been. When you get up in the morning there is no question of what you can or indeed want to wear.

It should be noted that uniforms will not abolish high school cliques, kids will still form groups of friends they regularly associate with and those groups can and will still be insular or even agressive towards others if they choose to do so. Uniform may level the playing field but it will not halt bullying where it is present, only the identification of bullies by staff and their punishment can treat that particular problem. This year alone there have been several incidents of violence with knives in and around English schools. There have been two deaths that I can think of immediately, though incidentally involving black youths believed to be involved in some sort of gangs. Kids in general are also thought to be running amock on the nations streets, a point of contention depending upon what papers you read, but certainly there is more crime and more violent crime involving minors occuring than one would expext, again demonstrating that uniform is nothing on it's own and that there are wider factors outside of a school that affect children, their attitudes and their actions.

Also, the uniform codes value is of no use whatsoever if it is not enforced stringently, allow one kid to wear trainers instead of smart shoes and the next day only the squares will be wearing the smart shoes. At my school (Brace yourselves, this is the British education system were talking about) the girls skirts got progressively shorter and shorter as they pushed the boundaries of the uniform code while the staff failed to take remedial action. After that it's excesses of makeup and cheap jewellry, and ever higher heels to their shoes. The moral being if you have a uniform you have to go all out, choose a reasonably priced supplier and set that as standard, no exceptions. You have to take it this seriously because I can guarantee that it will be challenged by some prick on the grounds of his childs human rights, we have recently seen a British teenager who wished to attend school in the full Muslim robe (despite the fact that the uniform already had a clause for a headscarf perfectly acceptable to Muslim law), prior to that we had a challenge to a schools uniform code from a girl who wished to wear trousers rather than a skirt, particularly in winter (My school was fine with this and lot's of girls chose trousers with no problems). If you aren't prepared to enforce uniform policy to the letter then don't even bother. Look at the Japanese schools for evidence of effective uniform practice (But not for curriculum workload, Japanese kids are apparently more stressed than their parents are with work ), their kids still exercise a high level of individuality in their dress outside of school.

The argument that it is hard on poor families is frankly bulls**t. Child for child the only variance in the cost will depend on whether your little boy regularly shreds his trousers playing football. And even that can be addressed, theres no reason that the uniform cannot use jeans instead of fabric trousers, providing of course that they are a cheap standard pair from the schools supplier and that you don't tolerate the designer labels that will inevitably try to sneak through. Of course a poor family with lots of kids will have more costs, but then shouldn't those who can't afford a family be more responsible anyway? That, I think, is an acceptable extra burden that would tell any person with half a brain that when clothing all your kids is pushing your budget perhaps you ought not have any more. Assuming they have the sense to grasp that, not something I'm willing to guarantee. :smile:

The problem for Uniform policy in a US state is not so much the practicalities but rather the philosophical implications. Some people have already invoked the god of Capitalism in this thread and that there is your chief problem. Americans are so deeply indoctrinated that capitalism and the uncontrolled market is unquestionably right that there will always be significant numbers (probably a majority) of people unwilling to forfeit their right to demonstrate that they buy only the best for their kids, and completely opposed to any form of standard as being 'authoritarianism'. After all, they want your kids to grow up to be good little consumers, don't you?
I would imagine that only in the staunchly religious areas could American states implement a widespread uniform policy by selling it to parents on grounds of decency and chastity, which, incidentally, it has no bearing upon, as Britains levels of teen pregnancy and STI's testify. Please note that we are the worst in Europe in regards to those for reasons beyond what kids wear, other nations have uniformed schools and lower rates of STI's.

[Phew, that's all I have for now. Not taking sides, just offering my experience.]

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I won't convince you that I'm not a facist. I'd prefer it if you came to that realization yourself. As offensive as I find these claims, I will not defend myself. Though I would appreciate it if you took the whistle off me.

Well if you wont defend yourself, I can only go based on what i've heard from you so far. I dont think you're a fascist, but I think you're willing to tolerate some of it. I cannot and will not.

This my solution against Materialism, not a solution for Public School problems in general.

I just usually find Materialism as a contributing factor to Willful Ignorance, Apathy, Passivity and Over-Indulgence. A true Facist would want a populace to be Willfully Ignorant, Apathetic to reform, Passive with the problems, and beOver-Indulgent in what the facist government promises them, and most definantly would want everyone to be defenseless.

I'm not against Material Worship or Celebrity Worship or Popculture Worship because it doesn't worship God. I'm against Material Worship, Celebrity Worship, and Popculture worship because it Worships Materialism, Celebrities and Popculture.

Well I am very much in favor of materialism. I dont think that it encourages apathy, I think it encourages consumerism, the economy and capitalism in general.

I dont see the connection between materialism and celebrities/pop culture. At least not in the capitalistic sense outside of the teenage age range.

But I guess I may be an exception because I am opposed to worship, and could care less about popculture/celebrities.

 

[rathi]

Uniforms promote conformity and authoritarianism. They make the statement "You have to follow this rule and conform despite its inherent pointlessness." In the military this a good idea, because making sure that soldiers follow strict proceedures and guidelines is vital. Public schools need the opposite. Kids need to be able to explore themselves and learn how to handle thier own responsibilities. School essentialy strips kids of responsbility and individualism for 12 years. Suddenly they are supposed to be able to make responsbile informed indepedant decesions?

Other problems with uniforms are practical. Uniforms suck in places with big temperture ranges. In winter everyone wants pants, in summer everyone wants shorts/skirts. Plus the whole "girls can't wear pants" nonsense occurs.