The Baby In The Womb [W:211]

[Dragonfly]

No one can be certain at exactly what stages they start feeling pain! That's the point!

I'll just refer you to my thread here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/147687-carl-sagan-abortion-debate-scientific-view.html

Click on the link in the first post and read Carl Sagan's thoughts on pro-life vs. pro-choice.

He sums things up very nicely.

 

[minnie616]

An unborn what? Goat? Lion? Or human?

In my post I was referring to a human unborn.

I do not even know any pro choicers who do not think a human zygote, a human blastocyst , a human embryo, or a human fetus is human.

 

[choiceone]

If those who support the killing of the unborn had consciences, then they could not take the position that they do. It is futile to try to appeal to a conscience that isn't there.

I completely disagree with this. From my moral perspective, a person with a conscience could not make more restrictions on abortion than those which the Supreme Court has made. I consider most restrictions on abortion to be immoral and the claim that an embryo is a person to be immoral. I consider all the anti-abortion people who want to make laws to ban and restrict abortion to be bullies and would-be dictators. I think it would be more moral to have an actual civil war in which the two sides throw bombs at and shoot each other than to give in to such bullies. I don't mind risking my life for a woman's right to choose that way - it's a righteous cause.

 

[choiceone]

Exactly. A 40 year old man left brain dead from an automobile accident wouldn't qualify as a "rational moral agent." Does that mean we are free to abuse his body? Execute him? Conduct experiments on him? And just how does a newborn qualify as a "rational moral agent?" I guess we are free to wipe out children all the way up to the age of 9 or 10 then.

It is the position of the left here that lacks both rationality and morality.

If a guy is brain dead, he is declared dead by medical professionals. People pull the plug on artificial life support in that case. An embryo or previable fetus is, in fact, equivalent to brain dead, as it does not have a regular human EEG any more than the brain dead 40 year old does. It can't live if the woman's body is not used as artificial life support - hence, abortion can't possibly be considered immoral by a rational moral agent.

 

[choiceone]

A human who is brain dead does not cease being human and therefore does not forfeit his rights. But if you now want to make brain activity the source of rights, then you will have to oppose abortion once brain activity is detected.

A human who is brain dead is considered medically and therefore legally dead. Nobody is obligated to keep artificial life support going.

 

[Fletch]

In my post I was referring to a human unborn.

I do not even know any pro choicers who do not think a human zygote, a human blastocyst , a human embryo, or a human fetus is human.

If it is a living human being, how do you deny its rights? Or, at what point in human development do we acquire rights and why?

 

[Fletch]

A human who is brain dead is considered medically and therefore legally dead. Nobody is obligated to keep artificial life support going.

But if there is brain activity and a prognosis for full recovery, what then? Would not that artificial life support be continued? And if there is brain activity in the womb, how is that not a living human being entitled to the same artificial life support until it can survive on its own?

 

[GottaGo]

:roll:

Well who's showing the "overblown" emotion here? Misplaced overblown emotion, may I add.

We all go through some pain when we have to make life-changing choices.
Abortion is a life-changing choice for two individuals. The wrong choice would mean the baby will be killed.

Why does that simple question about the fate of the baby be translated to show anything else but simply the statement of a fact - this time, from the baby's viewpoint?
Whatever the decision of the mother would be, it would be the baby who'll be impacted the most. It's a matter of life or death.

You're forgetting that there are two human beings involved in your scenario. Who speaks for the baby?

Something is terribly wrong with this picture. Explain to me....

Why does carrying the baby for 9 months be so dreadful than killing a helpless child?

As a counsellor, you've got the access to the distraught mother....you have the window of opportunity to intervene for the child....to save an innocent life. And you do nothing?

I'm not showing overblown emotion, you are by using the word persecution.


per·se·cute
[pur-si-kyoot]

verb (used with object), per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing.
1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.

2. to annoy or trouble persistently.

You would think, by the way you address it, that is all every woman does, and it is far from the truth. I never said it was dreadful to carry the child, I specifically stated that many do continue with their pregnancies, so kindly take you paintbrush elsewhere.

As a counselor, we can address abuse, direct them to financial aid, legal aid, shelters, health centers (not abortion clinics, before you jump on that one) and provide a shoulder and a box of Kleenex, a feeling of understanding can do a whole lot for a woman who has been overwhelmed with life's events.

I have access to a distraught WOMAN, regardless of her maternal state. Rules state that NO advice or counseling may be given regarding abortion or pregnancy. It is a charitable organization, not a religious one, and wishes to remain that way.

I support the right for a woman to CHOOSE. That does not mean I am pro-abortion or pro-life... it means each woman must make her own decision.

 

[GottaGo]

So what does that mean? Shouldn't we opt to kill the not-so-decent ones instead, like a weed that gets pulled off by the root?

You like to paint sunshine like everything is just rosy for everyone, that the life of the fetus is the ONLY thing that matters.

I'm someone who's trying to speak out for a voiceless human being.

That's all well and good, but it's not the only voice to be listened to, now is it?

Gimme a break....9 months....and you make it sound like it's the end of the world. What's so dreadful about the 9 months?

If your getting the **** beaten out of you on a regular basis, 9 months is a lifetime. If your health is in question, or you have/had an addiction both lives are in peril.

We go full circle here at this point - back to purely selfish self-interest? And you said it's not about narcissim. :roll:

And it's not. YOU want to see it that way, it justifies your judgmental view of those who are facing life crisis (not the preganancy as the crisis) and telling them they have no choice, because YOU deem it so.

Because it's liberal mindsets like this that weakens humans!

Then obviously I'm doing my job well, because the liberals will tell you I'm a conservative, the conservatives tell you I'm a liberal....

Look at our children as an example: a car crash killing some schoolmates (that most hardly even knew)...and they all need grief counselling!

We all have our natural defense mechanisms ....and liberals are bypassing that.

they may be.... but that is not the concern here, is it?

 

[minnie616]

If it is a living human being, how do you deny its rights? Or, at what point in human development do we acquire rights and why?

An unborn has no rights therefore I am Not denying an unborn any rights.
We acquire rights at birth.
The USA reconizes our rights at birth and the United Nations also recognizes human rights at birth.

 

[Medusa]

respect for human life

what about other human rights ?

this is where many cons dont know what to say

 

[Fletch]

An unborn has no rights therefore I am Not denying an unborn any rights.
We acquire rights at birth.
The USA reconizes our rights at birth and the United Nations also recognizes human rights at birth.

Well, the US once recognized the right of one man to own another, so simply stating current law isn't moral justification for this position or any other. You need a rational and moral justification for why rights should begin at birth and not prior.

 

[Fletch]

respect for human life

what about other human rights ?

this is where many cons dont know what to say

Like what?

 

[Medusa]

Like what?

like nuking them!!!!!!!

l think you remember what you said about nukes

 

[Fletch]

like nuking them!!!!!!!

l think you remember what you said about nukes

What? That the Japs deserved it? Yeah, they did. We killed more German civilians with conventional bombs, but you don't have a problem with that.

 

[Medusa]

What? That the Japs deserved it? Yeah, they did. We killed more German civilians with conventional bombs, but you don't have a problem with that.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I don't see how it's morally or intellectually bankrupt to be more concerned with the person who is being used and damaged, than with the entity that is using and damaging them.

This is pretty much a standard far-wrong position, to blame the victim of a serious crime while excusing and defending the perpetrator. No wonder our society is so ****ed up, when such thinking has become so commonplace.

 

[tosca1]

In my post I was referring to a human unborn.

I do not even know any pro choicers who do not think a human zygote, a human blastocyst , a human embryo, or a human fetus is human.

:roll:

Could it be because pro-choicers - as evidenced by their convoluted ramblings - hardly think at all?

 

[Dragonfly]

Could it be because pro-choicers - as evidenced by their convoluted ramblings - hardly think at all?

Hahahahaaaaaaaa

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[tosca1]

respect for human life

what about other human rights ?

this is where many cons dont know what to say

What human rights are you talking about if you can declare a human as someone inhuman just to suit your purpose?
Just like the left fighting for and rambling on about equality - and yet you discriminate.

This is an example of what I was just saying to Minnie above - convoluted ramblings.
You guys spout off about things you don't understand. Just take another look at this:

respect for human life

what about other human rights ?

Respect for human life is at the core of human rights.
If you have no respect for human life - there is no human rights.


At least you're right in your last sentence. I am one Con who don't know what to say. It' like us Cons trying to debate politics with three-year olds!

 

[Dragonfly]

You guys spout off about things you don't understand.

Lol...please stop....

You are the biggest hypocrite going.

I'm just glad I didn't have hot coffee in my mouth when I read this........

 

[tosca1]

You like to paint sunshine like everything is just rosy for everyone, that the life of the fetus is the ONLY thing that matters.

Well, in an abortion scenario it is: the baby is the only one that's going to get killed. And he never even had anything to do, or say in the matter. He's the one who's going to pay the penalty for the faulty choice made by his mother.

That's all well and good, but it's not the only voice to be listened to, now is it?

I'm glad you acknowledge that all voices should be heard.

 

[tosca1]

I'm not showing overblown emotion, you are by using the word persecution.

per·se·cute
[pur-si-kyoot]

verb (used with object), per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing.
1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.

2. to annoy or trouble persistently.

You forgot to include this definition:



3.
a program or campaign to exterminate, drive away, or subjugate a people because of their religion, race, or beliefs: the persecutions of Christians by the Romans.

You would think, by the way you address it, that is all every woman does, and it is far from the truth.

No, I was referring more to pro-choice people.

I never said it was dreadful to carry the child, I specifically stated that many do continue with their pregnancies, so kindly take you paintbrush elsewhere.

Let me re-phrase the question.

Why not carry the child to full term instead of killing him?

As a counselor, we can address abuse, direct them to financial aid, legal aid, shelters, health centers (not abortion clinics, before you jump on that one) and provide a shoulder and a box of Kleenex, a feeling of understanding can do a whole lot for a woman who has been overwhelmed with life's events.

Overwhelmed. You've touched an important word.

How many times did we face something that seems initially overwhelming - and made it through. Later on when we look back, we realize it wasn't really such an overwhelming thing.

When someone is distraught....of course his/her perception of things could be overblown or askewed.

 

[minnie616]

Any pregnancy can take a horrible turn at a moments notice . A woman's life pr long term may be affected by a pregnancy.

About 8 percent of all pregnancies carry the risk of death due to preeclampsia,eclampsia, HELLP syndrome and other variants of the syndrome.
Each one of the 8 percent who gets those syndromes may end up dying.

We never know when a pregnancy might take a turn and become life threatening to someone we love.

Another 1 to 2.5 percent of pregnancies are etopic pregnancies which are also life threatening.

So about 1 out 10 pregnancies can be life threatening just from 2 of the many types of life threatening complications.... eclampsia variants and etopic pregnancies.



Roughly 300 women in the USA do die every year from 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome.
About 75,000 more USA women who had severe complications from these syndromes are counted as “near misses”—.


My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death
( her liver was shutting down a normal plattlet count is about 150,000- 350,000 the normal for a pregnant woman is about 125,000- 300,000 since some plattlets are diverted to the fetus and the placenta ...
her count was down to only 25,000 ) when they performed the emergency C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused from her liver.
Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was shutting down.

Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.
My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome.
" Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 women who do die every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

Every year in the U.S., up to 8 percent, or 300,000, of pregnant or postpartum women develop preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome.

Roughly 300 women die, and another 75,000 women experience “near misses”—severe complications and injury such as organ failure, massive blood loss, permanent disability, and premature birth or death of their babies.

Usually, the disease resolves with the birth of the baby and placenta. But, it can occur postpartum—indeed, most maternal deaths occur after delivery.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...eclampsia-maternal-deaths-continue-today.html

Now many woman want to gestate and give birth and do not mind taking the risk.

During my first pregnancy my kidneys were damaged and my life was at risk but I wanted to give birth so I continued my pregnancy knowing I might not live to see my little one or even know if I had a boy or girl.

But after my personal experiences I could never support a law or a country that would make a woman risk her life and continue a pregnancy she did not want.

On the other side of the coin I would never support a law or a country that would force a woman to have an abortion.

I feel each pregnant woman should have a choice.

 

[calamity]

Good gawd. The OP is a rather primitive piece of propaganda. What nonsense.

Bottom line: A fetus has no measurable brain activity until 24 weeks. Anything else is just a meaningless appeal to emotion.