The Average Muslim

[Flea]

Talking with a Muslim the other day that I know and out of the blue she tells me about how they are taught to hate Indians. Not Native Americans, mind you Maximus, but actual Indians from India. They are taught this hate at their "schools" or mosques right here in Sonoma County USA! She didn't think that it was bad. She embraced the hate. I said that she might want to consider understanding the other sides point of view, but to not disrespect her teacher. She looked at me and told me that they are given all sorts of "proof" and that they don't question their teachers.

She told me how Gandhi was horrible and how and why he wanted to slaughter the Muslim people. They had proof, she said, though she wouldn't tell me what.

She went off on America and she justified the WTC Attacks and OBL himself. I was amazed. She talked about how Iran should be able to have nukes and that nobody should oppose that. I asked what she thought about the Iranian Presidents comments that he would, "wipe Isarael off the map" and she said that Israel was oppressive and deserved what they got for oppressing the Palestinians. I happen to think that the Palestinians should get their own country, and I said this and she was amazed. She seemed to expect me to back the Zionists. I said that this is how it should be. Communication.

She didn't get it that I was worried about one-sided hate. She was beyond passionate. She was working herself into a rage. I talked about understanding the history of violence and how people get lost in revenge cycles and she just got madder and madder. She started shaking with rage and lashed out at a couple of people that did one of those nervous chuckle/laughs. They were clearly nervous about what she was saying.

She talked about stopping America before we invade more nations, since we already destroyed two that took them a long time to build. I asked about the Taliban and she said that it was a government trying to evolve but that we hindered them and then destroyed them when they didn't agree with us. She said that we want to destroy Pakistan (that is where she is from) that we are going to invade Iran. That we want to kill every muslim on the planet. I said that we have nukes and missiles and we would just have done it, killed them all if taht is what we really wanted to do, but we haven't since that is not what we want to do. I said that there are bad people in America just like everywhere and to kill innocent people anywhere is bad. Somebody else said that she shouldn't hate based on what hasn't even happened yet. She said that she knew it was going to happen. We said that the future isn't written. She said that she know becuase they had groups that...and she caught herself. There was an uneasy silence. I wondered and still wonder, what groups?

I switched back to what we can do to find common ground and seek peace. The conversation kinda ended there.

The strange thing is that I see her almost every day for a year or so and we never talked about any of this since I just assumed she was an assimilated Pakistani-American. Everything seems "normal" about her. She is nice and talks about most things American. She also embraces the destruction of various cultures and nations and justifies the WTC attacks.

Is this a picture of the average Muslim worldwide? In the West.

This post is not about hate. It is not about bashing on Muslims. This post is about trying to understand the hate and how average Muslims see things and what we can do to communicate better. that is my goal at least.

EDIT:

Trying to get a pole in.

 

[Flea]

Can a Mod add a poll?

Are average Muslims striving for peace or not?

 

[americanwoman]

Is this a picture of the average Muslim worldwide? In the West.

This post is not about hate. It is not about bashing on Muslims. This post is about trying to understand the hate and how average Muslims see things and what we can do to communicate better. that is my goal at least.

This is a very interesting topic. Sounds like what she is saying she is getting straight from Al-Jezeera or some propaganda machine like that. I think that's how alot of the misinformation gets out. I have heard about videos and movies Muslim about the great threats like America or even India.

While most Muslims probably want the peace since they are convinced we are the ones who are a danger to that peace they feel threatened toward us.They are lied to by their leaders and direct their anger toward others instead of the ones who really oppress them. It's sad really.


Now, It's hard to say what better communication we can have. We have to compete with their propaganda machines all over t.v and the internet. I actually watched a program not too long ago about how Al-Queda sends their message via online and we have not caught up with them on that front. That is a very important piece of reaching people from all over and we have to adapt to this technology and be able to counter it so they can get over views and not just the ones they are fed. That's one way to help control the spread of the hate.

 

[Flea]

I have always understood that there are "crazy" leftists and "crazy" neo-cons, but I also understand that the VAST majority of people are good and communicate effectively and want peace and such. What I am womdering is if the VAST majority of Mulsims that I would consider moderate and not extreme share her view making them less moderate than I thought and more extreme in reality. It is a little disconcerting to think about.

 

[Navy Pride]

I personally don't know whose side the average Muslim is on....That is what scares me......

 

[americanwoman]

I have always understood that there are "crazy" leftists and "crazy" neo-cons, but I also understand that the VAST majority of people are good and communicate effectively and want peace and such. What I am womdering is if the VAST majority of Mulsims that I would consider moderate and not extreme share her view making them less moderate than I thought and more extreme in reality. It is a little disconcerting to think about.

It's chilling to think about it but at the same time you can't every time you look at a Muslim think "oh they are a jihadist islamic nutjob" because that's not fair to Muslim who really are caring, peaceful, and even great people-- and there really are some. I know a girl from Saudi Arabia who is sweet as pie and so open minded but could never say those things out loud in her country. But as you said though it's very disconcerting to think of what people might actually deep down think.

 

[Flea]

This girl IS sweet as pie. That is what made it so interesting and disturbing.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

As long as moderate muslims refuse to acknowledge that Jihad and Martydom in the "Defense of the Faith" are NOT virtues, I will continue to see them as part of the problem. They give cover to religious fundamentalism in the name of their scripture.

 

[ltb]

She didn't get it that I was worried about one-sided hate. She was beyond passionate. She was working herself into a rage. I talked about understanding the history of violence and how people get lost in revenge cycles and she just got madder and madder. She started shaking with rage and lashed out at a couple of people that did one of those nervous chuckle/laughs. They were clearly nervous about what she was saying.

Didn’t go blow herself up afterwards, did she? Why do we allow these people into our country? I know, I know, I’m xenophobic, but I really don’t care any more. The allegiance of every Muslim is to allah, who is NOT the God of Jews and Christians, and their allah commands them to go out and conquer the world for him by converting everyone and killing anyone who refuses to convert. In a nutshell, the Muslim Creed is “We convert who we can and kill the rest.” Any Muslim who is not conquering, or killing, Jews, Christians and Infidels (everyone else) is not doing his sworn duty under Islam. And some people still call this religion from Hell a peace-loving religion, give me a break!

By the way, this mythical land of Palestine that was ruled by Muslims, was just that - mythical - it never existed. Israel belongs to the Jews, it has always belonged to the Jews and the Muslims currently living in Israel should be grateful that the Israeli government hasn’t packed all of them onto buses and taken them to the Jordanian border.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Didn’t go blow herself up afterwards, did she? Why do we allow these people into our country? I know, I know, I’m xenophobic, but I really don’t care any more. The allegiance of every Muslim is to allah, who is NOT the God of Jews and Christians, and their allah commands them to go out and conquer the world for him by converting everyone and killing anyone who refuses to convert. In a nutshell, the Muslim Creed is “We convert who we can and kill the rest.” Any Muslim who is not conquering, or killing, Jews, Christians and Infidels (everyone else) is not doing his sworn duty under Islam. And some people still call this religion from Hell a peace-loving religion, give me a break!

By the way, this mythical land of Palestine that was ruled by Muslims, was just that - mythical - it never existed. Israel belongs to the Jews, it has always belonged to the Jews and the Muslims currently living in Israel should be grateful that the Israeli government hasn’t packed all of them onto buses and taken them to the Jordanian border.

Your being a xenophobe does not discredit the truth in what you say.

If you believe that the world MUST be converted to Islam, when discussing the end-game of human rational thought, then you ARE my enemy.

If you are mindful of your faults, and also see the harm is such dangerous dogmatism, you are my ally.

 

[MSgt]

Can a Mod add a poll?

Are average Muslims striving for peace or not?

Moderator's Warning:

Mission Accomplished

 

[conserv.pat15]

Johnny Utah... what, in detail, was her justification for the 9/11 attacks?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Johnny Utah... what, in detail, was her justification for the 9/11 attacks?

I imagine it to be a combination of "American Imperialism," "Our presence in the ME," and something about the ends justifying the means.

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by conserv.pat15
Johnny Utah... what, in detail, was her justification for the 9/11 attacks?

It was:

a combination of "American Imperialism," "Our presence in the ME," and something about the ends justifying the means. - Lachean

AND the fact that we willingly destroyed two Muslim Nations with no reason. Independent nations that are peaceful. The conversation was pretty fast on her part, she said A LOT of stuff that didn't make sense to me with her accent as well.

 

[MSgt]

I swept the Internet to get examples from every country in the Middle East (and some beyond) that produces indoctrinated hate upon their children towards Indians, Israelis, Americans, the French, the British, etc. and even each other. Upon this, is the indoctrinated hate against other religions and even their women (in some sectors).

The documentation that proves such a common knowledge thing is overwhelming. From actual cases where the children are encouraged to handle weapons in marches to defy the West and Israel, to Al-Jazeera sponsered videos on public television sets, and onto Mosque preachings, it's everywhere. It is pointless to produce it. One only has to type in the key words and easily find it for themselves. I even came across a letter spear headed by Hillary Clinton that points out and focuses on the Palestinan/Israeli issue hinging on the continual hatred taught to Palestinian children in schools.

Can anyone of us imagine going to grade school where stomping on another nation's flag is the norm between classes? Or watching a parade go by where everyone is cheering joyously as they burn internaitonal flags and invite you into the mob mentality? How about living in a society where women are forced to cover their arms under penalty of law? Or how about living under a government that produces a single news media within a population monopolized by a single monotheist religion? Anybody remember from their education how your teachers of professors referrd to the Middle Eatsern Muslim as Satan..or the "Great Satan?"

The average Muslim wants nothing to do with the violence between our civilizations. But they are definately subjected to the same indoctrination that their Radical base is. And this is where we see the Islamic terrorist in breeding. They may silently condemn their Radicals and their terrorist byproduct, but they will not be as bold as to declare their behavior as wrong. After all, according to many of their religious leaders, they are merely greater believers (martyrs). For the Muslim population in the Middle East, it is hard to tell the difference between dissent and blasphemy. It's easier just to keep your mouth shut.

There are many studies conducted by professors and regional experts that explain this. Many of them are...Muslim.

 

[Just Me 2]

I think the key words in your post where that "she was taught". I don't think a Muslim that is not taught to hate will. It is not in their religion. This is where I think Muslims get a back wrap. I have a few Muslim firends and have had in depth conversations about the religion, their views on the US and just the general customs of Muslims.

Most agreed that the Muslin religion needs to "update" itself for the way the world is today. The all thought that Iraq was bad but think it will be better in the end. Bottom line these Muslims were born, here and were not taught to hate by their families or Emoms so they have been able to come to their own conclusions. In the end your friend in a way has been abused all her life if she was taught to hate. She needs to be educated.

 

[Iriemon]

Talking with a Muslim the other day that I know and out of the blue she tells me about how they are taught to hate Indians. Not Native Americans, mind you Maximus, but actual Indians from India. They are taught this hate at their "schools" or mosques right here in Sonoma County USA! She didn't think that it was bad. She embraced the hate. I said that she might want to consider understanding the other sides point of view, but to not disrespect her teacher. She looked at me and told me that they are given all sorts of "proof" and that they don't question their teachers.

She told me how Gandhi was horrible and how and why he wanted to slaughter the Muslim people. They had proof, she said, though she wouldn't tell me what.

She went off on America and she justified the WTC Attacks and OBL himself. I was amazed. She talked about how Iran should be able to have nukes and that nobody should oppose that. I asked what she thought about the Iranian Presidents comments that he would, "wipe Isarael off the map" and she said that Israel was oppressive and deserved what they got for oppressing the Palestinians. I happen to think that the Palestinians should get their own country, and I said this and she was amazed. She seemed to expect me to back the Zionists. I said that this is how it should be. Communication.

She didn't get it that I was worried about one-sided hate. She was beyond passionate. She was working herself into a rage. I talked about understanding the history of violence and how people get lost in revenge cycles and she just got madder and madder. She started shaking with rage and lashed out at a couple of people that did one of those nervous chuckle/laughs. They were clearly nervous about what she was saying.

She talked about stopping America before we invade more nations, since we already destroyed two that took them a long time to build. I asked about the Taliban and she said that it was a government trying to evolve but that we hindered them and then destroyed them when they didn't agree with us. She said that we want to destroy Pakistan (that is where she is from) that we are going to invade Iran. That we want to kill every muslim on the planet. I said that we have nukes and missiles and we would just have done it, killed them all if taht is what we really wanted to do, but we haven't since that is not what we want to do. I said that there are bad people in America just like everywhere and to kill innocent people anywhere is bad. Somebody else said that she shouldn't hate based on what hasn't even happened yet. She said that she knew it was going to happen. We said that the future isn't written. She said that she know becuase they had groups that...and she caught herself. There was an uneasy silence. I wondered and still wonder, what groups?

I switched back to what we can do to find common ground and seek peace. The conversation kinda ended there.

The strange thing is that I see her almost every day for a year or so and we never talked about any of this since I just assumed she was an assimilated Pakistani-American. Everything seems "normal" about her. She is nice and talks about most things American. She also embraces the destruction of various cultures and nations and justifies the WTC attacks.

Is this a picture of the average Muslim worldwide? In the West.

This post is not about hate. It is not about bashing on Muslims. This post is about trying to understand the hate and how average Muslims see things and what we can do to communicate better. that is my goal at least.

EDIT:

Trying to get a pole in.

I'll take a shot in the dark and guess she was from Pakistan?

 

[Iriemon]

Talking with a Muslim the other day that I know and out of the blue she tells me about how they are taught to hate Indians. Not Native Americans, mind you Maximus, but actual Indians from India. They are taught this hate at their "schools" or mosques right here in Sonoma County USA! She didn't think that it was bad. She embraced the hate. I said that she might want to consider understanding the other sides point of view, but to not disrespect her teacher. She looked at me and told me that they are given all sorts of "proof" and that they don't question their teachers.

She told me how Gandhi was horrible and how and why he wanted to slaughter the Muslim people. They had proof, she said, though she wouldn't tell me what.

She went off on America and she justified the WTC Attacks and OBL himself. I was amazed. She talked about how Iran should be able to have nukes and that nobody should oppose that. I asked what she thought about the Iranian Presidents comments that he would, "wipe Isarael off the map" and she said that Israel was oppressive and deserved what they got for oppressing the Palestinians. I happen to think that the Palestinians should get their own country, and I said this and she was amazed. She seemed to expect me to back the Zionists. I said that this is how it should be. Communication.

She didn't get it that I was worried about one-sided hate. She was beyond passionate. She was working herself into a rage. I talked about understanding the history of violence and how people get lost in revenge cycles and she just got madder and madder. She started shaking with rage and lashed out at a couple of people that did one of those nervous chuckle/laughs. They were clearly nervous about what she was saying.

She talked about stopping America before we invade more nations, since we already destroyed two that took them a long time to build. I asked about the Taliban and she said that it was a government trying to evolve but that we hindered them and then destroyed them when they didn't agree with us. She said that we want to destroy Pakistan (that is where she is from) that we are going to invade Iran. That we want to kill every muslim on the planet. I said that we have nukes and missiles and we would just have done it, killed them all if taht is what we really wanted to do, but we haven't since that is not what we want to do. I said that there are bad people in America just like everywhere and to kill innocent people anywhere is bad. Somebody else said that she shouldn't hate based on what hasn't even happened yet. She said that she knew it was going to happen. We said that the future isn't written. She said that she know becuase they had groups that...and she caught herself. There was an uneasy silence. I wondered and still wonder, what groups?

I switched back to what we can do to find common ground and seek peace. The conversation kinda ended there.

The strange thing is that I see her almost every day for a year or so and we never talked about any of this since I just assumed she was an assimilated Pakistani-American. Everything seems "normal" about her. She is nice and talks about most things American. She also embraces the destruction of various cultures and nations and justifies the WTC attacks.

Is this a picture of the average Muslim worldwide? In the West.

This post is not about hate. It is not about bashing on Muslims. This post is about trying to understand the hate and how average Muslims see things and what we can do to communicate better. that is my goal at least.

EDIT:

Trying to get a pole in.

I'll take a shot in the dark and guess she was from Pakistan?

 

[jfuh]

Ignorance and isolation. That's what all this is. ON all sides. Everywhere in the world that I have been to, whenever I hear someone of any language talking how one race or ethnicity is bad or to be hated, it's always because of ignorance. Cherry picking stereotypes of one aspect of the other so as to formulate a blame towards them.
It's especially simple because these ppl are not your own or those that you identify with and more importantly there not here.
With American's too many have no idea what is outside their own state much less the nations borders. With Europeans many think they are still the center of civilization and that the US is to blame for everything especially in overtaking their power stand and ect ect ect. It's always someone else's fault. Certainly, there are faults with others; but it takes two to tango, and until we realize that later fact there will continue to be plenty of blame on them.
I can not say I understand the average muslim. However if they've never left the confines of where they live and never exposed to or interacted with other ppl's than indeed there would be hatred; just as how some ppl here in the US think we need to nuke the entire ME and make it one giant shining glass field.

 

[Hatuey]

I have always understood that there are "crazy" leftists and "crazy" neo-cons, but I also understand that the VAST majority of people are good and communicate effectively and want peace and such. What I am womdering is if the VAST majority of Mulsims that I would consider moderate and not extreme share her view making them less moderate than I thought and more extreme in reality. It is a little disconcerting to think about.

Well I don't really know Johnny...the average Irish man from Ireland isn't too fond of the english and the average person from the Caribean isn't too fond of Haitians...When we're young we're all in some small way told to beware or be weary of a certain group of people. I was told to be weary of jewish kids and yet today I find myself debating alongside people of Israeli descent in a civilized manner and I have nothing but the utmost respect for these people and would love to get together with them someday for a live chat. IMO, It all depends on what you choose to do once told to be weary or "hate" somebody.

 

[Flea]

Iriemon, did you get,

"I'll take a shot in the dark and guess she was from Pakistan?"

from this,

"She said that we want to destroy Pakistan (that is where she is from)" - J.Utah

That was in my post?

j/k Apparently you missed it, so, good guess.

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by Hatuey
Well I don't really know Johnny...the average Irish man from Ireland isn't too fond of the english and the average person from the Caribean isn't too fond of Haitians...When we're young we're all in some small way told to beware or be weary of a certain group of people. I was told to be weary of jewish kids and yet today I find myself debating alongside people of Israeli descent in a civilized manner and I have nothing but the utmost respect for these people and would love to get together with them someday for a live chat. IMO, It all depends on what you choose to do once told to be weary or "hate" somebody.

I think that you are right. It is what we do with the information given us. But the average Irishman doesn't promote violence, does he? Maybe in a bar after a few pints of ale, but do people really sit around and stew in rage and advocate killing people and justify the deaths of innocent people? Maybe they do more than I realize, I just have never heard it personally. I know people from all over the world. The Jews from Israel that I know say that the situation is bad. They say that they want peace. The few Arabs that I know spew hate speech at the mention of the Zionists. it is quite a contrast.

 

[Hatuey]

I think that you are right. It is what we do with the information given us. But the average Irishman doesn't promote violence, does he? Maybe in a bar after a few pints of ale, but do people really sit around and stew in rage and advocate killing people and justify the deaths of innocent people? Maybe they do more than I realize, I just have never heard it personally. I know people from all over the world. The Jews from Israel that I know say that the situation is bad. They say that they want peace. The few Arabs that I know spew hate speech at the mention of the Zionists. it is quite a contrast.

Well I guess you're right to some degree...I've yet to personally meet a single muslim person who advocated the carnage purpetrated by extremists but that there are there are. I think it might have something to do with the number of muslims....since there are alot of muslims(1.3 Billion is it?) if even 5-15% of the population condones the violence it seems like a lot....

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by hatuey
Well I guess you're right to some degree...I've yet to personally meet a single muslim person who advocated the carnage purpetrated by extremists but that there are there are. I think it might have something to do with the number of muslims....since there are alot of muslims(1.3 Billion is it?) if even 5-15% of the population condones the violence it seems like a lot....

I am not saying that they are all bad or anything. I am just saying that I was shocked to hear a girl that I thought was westernized and moderate "going off" like she did. It got me wondering about what the other "normal moderate" muslims are thinking.

Not many people actually advocate the carnage that the extremists do, but it was the justification from her that bothered me. Like as long as those "extremists" killed it was fine with her. She wouldn't, but others should. As long as there are "enablers" or people looking the other way the issue is gonna be bad.

 

[ARealConservative]

I take it she was a female. :mrgreen: