The "Ask The Atheist/Agnostic/Non-Believer" Thread

[Daisy]

And once you two can agree on a consistent interpretation of what that is, I'd listen. Right now it's thousands of different megaphones all screaming they're the only one true religion, with nothing distinguishing between them. As soon as the atheists shut up, they're all back at each other's throats.

That is for you to determine...if you can...

 

[Questerr]

I follow Christ's teachings to the best of my ability, yes...

So you’ve sold all your possessions and live as an itinerant preacher as he commanded his disciples?

 

[tosca1]

I'm not talking about Christians in particular. I'm talking about claims theists make. And theists who "experience" God/gods claim very different things about God/gods.

The argument "a lot of people believe X so it's true" is a fallacy. It is the argument you have been making. You've said that because many theists "experience" a god, it is evidence for the existence of god.

I am saying that if these experiences are actually attributed to an encounter with god, they should all be consistent. They are not. So I think it is more likely these experiences are caused by hallucinations, dreams, misremembrance, or other tricks of the mind. Mass misremembrances happen all the time. It's called The Mandela Effect.

No. Even an honest, intelligent, upstanding person can fall victim to a hallucination or misremembrance. Mistakes happen, our brains are imperfect. Remember The Mandela Effect?

Atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. Similarly, not collecting stamps is not a hobby, it is a lack of a hobby.

There are many different gods. From my Christian pov, of course I;d say all of them are fake.....for there is only one God. The Abrahamic God.

However, if you're citing the many gods that people believe in as your basis for your atheism - then, I don't think it's a rational basis.
Why, you ask?

It only proves all the more that there is a God - except that people differ in their belief on who, or what God is.
It's like the analogy given by Ashes of being in a room with many people pointing at all directions, pointing at intangible beings that you can't see.
They may not all be pointing in the same direction - but they're all basically saying the same thing. There is a being which only you can't see.

I am saying that if these experiences are actually attributed to an encounter with god, they should all be consistent. They are not.

I asked you to cite me experiences of encounters with NON-ABRAHAMIC GOD.

And............define, "consistent."

What kind of "consistency" do you expect?
I told you, the Abrahamic God can manifest anyway He wants to.

I hope you don't take the MYTHOLOGICAL gods seriously - like the "lustful" Zeus (since you say somebody says god is lustful.

I hope you don't use the same ignorant argument given by atheists - comparing the Abrahamic God with those mythological idols.
Lol - have you ever seen two philosophers debating about the existence of Zeus?
Or, seen scientists seriously wasting time discussing any other creation narrative (along the line of consistency or inconsistency with science)?

 

[tosca1]

No. Even an honest, intelligent, upstanding person can fall victim to a hallucination or misremembrance. Mistakes happen, our brains are imperfect. Remember The Mandela Effect?

Like I said - you have to qualify where the information is coming from. You don't have to believe every Dick and Tom or Harry.

Like you, as an example. Let's "qualify" you.
Here you are with your atheistic belief, who doesn't believe in the supernatural - and giving all sorts of lame excuses as to how we should ALL dismiss MILLIONS of testimonies of people having had an encounter with God, or profound religious experience that makes them become believers. Many of them were staunch atheist who ended up believing.
Because you say, people make mistakes.

Well - how can I take you seriously when you're quoting, and using the very name "MANDELA EFFECT" - like as if the term is the
lightning rod of credibility.

Look where that term came from:


From a....................PARANORMAL CONSULTANT!



Hahahahaha You quoting a paranormal - that's hilarious! Hahahahahaha




False memories can sometimes be shared by multiple people. One prominent example comes from a 2010 study that examined people familiar with the clock at Bologna Centrale railway station, which was damaged in the Bologna massacre bombing in August 1980. In the study, 92% of respondents falsely remembered the clock had remained stopped since the bombing when, in fact, the clock was repaired shortly after the attack. Years later the clock was again stopped and set to the time of the bombing in observance and commemoration of the bombing.[7] Other such examples include memories of the title of the Berenstain Bears children's books being spelled Berenstein,[8][9] the logo of clothing brand Fruit of the Loom featuring a cornucopia,[10] and the existence of a 1990s movie entitled Shazaam starring comedian Sinbad as a genie.[11]

In 2010, this shared false memory phenomenon was dubbed "the Mandela effect" by self-described "paranormal consultant" Fiona Broome, in reference to her false memory of the death of South African anti-Apartheid leader Nelson Mandela in prison in the 1980s (he actually died in 2013, after having served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999), which she claimed was shared by "perhaps thousands" of other people.[

False memory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You do know that many of these people who have had religious experiences have become TRANSFORMED!
It isn't uncommon to find them living a transformed life as a result of this so-called, "Mandela Effect."


Like I said too - the evidence for the Abrahamic God isn't just limited to the MILLIONS of testimonies, either!

Atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. Similarly, not collecting stamps is not a hobby, it is a lack of a hobby.

Hahahaha....and there it is - you have to resort to "wiggling!" The "lack of belief" thingy.

 

[Dragonfly]

I asked what is harmful about believing in God and you listed all of those horrible things.

Which does not ever remotely say/suggest/infer "all believers do this, or support it".

 

[Dragonfly]

I asked what is harmful about believing in God and you listed all of those horrible things.

So, are you going to answer my question? It shouldn't take much more than a "yes" or "no" response.

Let me ask you:

Does belief in the wrong god have eternal consequences that could be very unpleasant?

 

[tosca1]

And once you two can agree on a consistent interpretation of what that is, I'd listen. Right now it's thousands of different megaphones all screaming they're the only one true religion, with nothing distinguishing between them. As soon as the atheists shut up, they're all back at each other's throats.

I actually mentioned you in my response to another poster. Guess what - I used your own analogy to support my argument.


Let me re-post it for you:



However, if you're citing the many gods that people believe in as your basis for your atheism -
then, I don't think it's a rational basis.
Why, you ask?

It only proves all the more that there is a God - except that people differ in their belief on who, or what God is.



It's like the analogy given by Ashes of being in a room with many people pointing at all directions,
pointing at intangible beings that you can't see.

They may not all be pointing in the same direction - but they're all basically saying the same thing.
There is a being which only you can't see.

 

[Peter King]

True. I've had many discussions here with people who swear up and down that the Bible says nothing against homosexuality.

Leviticus 18.22 says “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

and a bit further Leviticus 18.29 says: “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people.

also:

Timothy 1:8-10 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and

profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine ...


And there are more bible texts that forbid gay sex.

 

[Dragonfly]

True. I've had many discussions here with people who swear up and down that the Bible says nothing against homosexuality.

Leviticus 18.22 says “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

and a bit further Leviticus 18.29 says: “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people.

also:

Timothy 1:8-10 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and

profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine ...


And there are more bible texts that forbid gay sex.

I think you need to keep in mind that many Christians completely and totally ignore the Old Testament.
As if it's not part of the Bible at all.

 

[Peter King]

I think you need to keep in mind that many Christians completely and totally ignore the Old Testament.
As if it's not part of the Bible at all.

You mean the hell, gore, death, murder, child murder, part of the bible, just as bad as the Quran is when it comes to intolerance.

But there are also enough christians who completely ignore the teachings of the new testament and who are full old testamenters as can be.

 

[Dragonfly]

But there are also enough christians who completely ignore the teachings of the new testament and who are full old testamenters as can be.

Surely those aren't the ones suggesting the bible says nothing about homosexuality and such.

 

[Josie]

Which does not ever remotely say/suggest/infer "all believers do this, or support it".

That is true, but you failed to mention that. I asked a very broad question about all believers and you gave only negative answers. What else was I supposed to think?

 

[Josie]

I think you need to keep in mind that many Christians completely and totally ignore the Old Testament.
As if it's not part of the Bible at all.

You mean they totally ignore the specific Jewish laws because........................... they aren't Jewish.

Most Christians don't ignore Job, Elijah, Noah, Joseph, the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Ruth, Adam/Eve, Saul, Sampson, Delilah, Solomon, David, etc. I learned all of those stories from a very young age and continued to be hear them through adulthood as well.

 

[Dragonfly]

I asked a very broad question about all believers and you gave only negative answers.

You asked a very broad question, but expect a very specific and detailed answer???

And of course I gave only negative answers. How would I answer that question with positive answers?

Also - you seem to be avoiding my question to you.
What are the potential/likely consequences for believing in the wrong god?

 

[Josie]

You asked a very broad question, but expect a very specific and detailed answer???

And of course I gave only negative answers. How would I answer that question with positive answers?

Also - you seem to be avoiding my question to you.
What are the potential/likely consequences for believing in the wrong god?

Is there anything positive about people who believe in God?

No, I didn't see your question. Based on the Christian belief, if you believe in the wrong God, you won't receive eternal life with him. Most religions have some sort of negative consequence for not believing.

 

[Dragonfly]

You mean they totally ignore the specific Jewish laws because........................... they aren't Jewish.

Most Christians don't ignore Job, Elijah, Noah, Joseph, the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Ruth, Adam/Eve, Saul, Sampson, Delilah, Solomon, David, etc. I learned all of those stories from a very young age and continued to be hear them through adulthood as well.

All I can say is I can't count the number of times I've seen a Christian fall back on the excuse that "the OT does not apply to Christians", or the "the NT over-rides and/or nullifies many things in the OT" and therefore doesn't apply to Christians.

 

[Dragonfly]

you won't receive eternal life with him.

Uhhh....what about Hell, Satan, eternal damnation, Lake of Fire, eternal pain, torture, and suffering....

Please don't tell me many christians fail to believe in that stuff as well. Far beyond not receiving eternal life.

 

[Josie]

All I can say is I can't count the number of times I've seen a Christian fall back on the excuse that "the OT does not apply to Christians", or the "the NT over-rides and/or nullifies many things in the OT" and therefore doesn't apply to Christians.

Yes. Like I said - Jewish law. It doesn’t all apply to Gentiles. It was a covenant between God and the Jews (His chosen people).

 

[Josie]

Uhhh....what about Hell, Satan, eternal damnation, Lake of Fire, eternal pain, torture, and suffering....

Please don't tell me many christians fail to believe in that stuff as well. Far beyond not receiving eternal life.

Most Christians believe that. Some don’t believe in hell (like JWs, for example).

 

[Dragonfly]

What's harmful about believing in God?

So, you've answered your own question.

Most religions have some sort of negative consequence for not believing.

Most Christians believe that. Some don’t believe in hell (like JWs, for example).

 

[tosca1]

So you’ve sold all your possessions and live as an itinerant preacher as he commanded his disciples?

Did you read that particular passage?




Matthew 19

The Rich and the Kingdom of God​

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life,
keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”


21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.”


22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT.

If we can be perfect, then who needs a Saviour?



In His conversation with the rich young ruler, Christ did not teach that we are saved by the works of the Law.
The Bible’s message is that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 3:20, 28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Rather, Jesus used the man’s love of money to show how the man fell short of God’s holy standard—as do we all.
The rich young ruler needed the Savior, and so do we.

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler he could be saved by obeying the commandments? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler he could be saved by obeying the commandments? Why didn’t Jesus give the rich young ruler the plan of salvation?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Questerr]

Did you read that particular passage?




Matthew 19

The Rich and the Kingdom of God​

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”


21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



IF YOU WANT TO BE PERFECT.





In His conversation with the rich young ruler, Christ did not teach that we are saved by the works of the Law.
The Bible’s message is that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 3:20, 28; 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Rather, Jesus used the man’s love of money to show how the man fell short of God’s holy standard—as do we all.
The rich young ruler needed the Savior, and so do we.

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler he could be saved by obeying the commandments? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler he could be saved by obeying the commandments? Why didn’t Jesus give the rich young ruler the plan of salvation?

www.gotquestions.org

Is it the goal of Christians to remain imperfect sinners?

 

[tosca1]

Is it the goal of Christians to remain imperfect sinners?

Looks like something is lost in translation with you.
Why do you interpret that to mean - " it is the GOAL?"


Why don't you read it again. Take your time.

 

[Questerr]

Looks like something is lost in translation with you.
Why do you interpret that to mean - " it is the GOAL?"


Why don't you read it again.

Christians don’t strive towards what Jesus put forward as perfection?

 

[tosca1]

Christians don’t strive towards what Jesus put forward as perfection?

Did you read it?

AND?