The Arab Spring Is Over

[Miguel17]

Assad may seam less destructive primarily because he gets someone else to do his dirty work, rather than an Islamist who would do it himself. I'm not sure that Islamists would necessarily be a worse evil in any practical sense. Equally destructive, just directly so. Overthrowing Assad will likely produce a militant Islamist government, but on the other hand there's a small chance it won't. That small chance may be worth it.

There is a small chance. No matter what happens, Syria is almost certainly going to have a repressive government after all this. The question is, will they have the Shah or the Ayatollah when the smoke clears?

 

[Manc Skipper]

Repressive? What do you think the Assad dynasty is? Benign dictatorship?

 

[Miguel17]

Repressive? What do you think the Assad dynasty is? Benign dictatorship?

Assad's regime is repressive. That's why I said that whether he fell or didn't, Syrians would almost certainly be stuck with a repressive government. But when dealing with less civilizationally developed people, you have to see different levels of repressiveness and which are worse. I think George W. and Obama's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq make it clear that sometimes a very bad country can get much, much worse.

 

[Sherman123]

There is a small chance. No matter what happens, Syria is almost certainly going to have a repressive government after all this. The question is, will they have the Shah or the Ayatollah when the smoke clears?

Why are they bound for a repressive government?

 

[Sherman123]

Assad's regime is repressive. That's why I said that whether he fell or didn't, Syrians would almost certainly be stuck with a repressive government. But when dealing with less civilizationally developed people, you have to see different levels of repressiveness and which are worse. I think George W. and Obama's adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq make it clear that sometimes a very bad country can get much, much worse.

Less 'civilizationally developed' sounds like a left wing way of being racist. I'm quite confident Arabs and Syrians to be specific are capable of sustaining and engaging in a constitutional democratic system.

 

[EagleAye]

Less 'civilizationally developed' sounds like a left wing way of being racist. I'm quite confident Arabs and Syrians to be specific are capable of sustaining and engaging in a constitutional democratic system.

Exactly. I think that middle-easterners are just as sick of the constant conflict Islamists bring as we are.

 

[Miguel17]

Less 'civilizationally developed' sounds like a left wing way of being racist. I'm quite confident Arabs and Syrians to be specific are capable of sustaining and engaging in a constitutional democratic system.

My phrase is not racist in the slightest. There is no "racial" (I put racial in parenthesis because we all know "race" to be a social construct with no basis in biological reality) reason for their backwardness. It's cultural. A culture in which women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, and members of the LGBT community are not treated with respect (much less equality) is a less civilized culture than our own, in my opinion. It's true--I believe in moral absolutes, and I'm not a moral relativist. But that's the way I see cultural differences.

I would never be so stupid as to say that Arabs are racially or ethnically incapable of engaging in a participatory democracy. But, for cultural reasons, they don't want it. See, that's the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy: in the latter system, people have to actually want it. Otherwise, they will tear their liberties and freedoms apart voluntarily--a la Iran after 1979.

 

[johnny_rebson]

The only thing that matters is what is in the best interests of the American people. All other considerations fall by the wayside.

Exactly. We need to find people we can install as leaders of those countries who will support our economic interests.

 

[specklebang]

What if we installed Obusha and Obamney and found a couple of new candidates for our own political circus?

((it's my birthday so I can post any silly **** I want to))

Exactly. We need to find people we can install as leaders of those countries who will support our economic interests.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Call me an asshole but its not over
Bahraini uprising (2011
Syrian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And how nice of you to judge democratic regimes when they are not even 3 months into their reign!

 

[Mira]

My phrase is not racist in the slightest. There is no "racial" (I put racial in parenthesis because we all know "race" to be a social construct with no basis in biological reality) reason for their backwardness. It's cultural. A culture in which women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, and members of the LGBT community are not treated with respect (much less equality) is a less civilized culture than our own, in my opinion. It's true--I believe in moral absolutes, and I'm not a moral relativist. But that's the way I see cultural differences.

I would never be so stupid as to say that Arabs are racially or ethnically incapable of engaging in a participatory democracy. But, for cultural reasons, they don't want it. See, that's the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy: in the latter system, people have to actually want it. Otherwise, they will tear their liberties and freedoms apart voluntarily--a la Iran after 1979.

I could have agreed with you but under the Assad regime, there have been no issues of women, ethnic minorities and religious minorities' rights. With the chaos that will follow the fall of the regime, these will become real issues and the LGBT community will be better off as far away from Syria as possible. Iraq is a good example.

 

[Miguel17]

I could have agreed with you but under the Assad regime, there have been no issues of women, ethnic minorities and religious minorities' rights. With the chaos that will follow the fall of the regime, these will become real issues and the LGBT community will be better off as far away from Syria as possible. Iraq is a good example.

Well, of course Assad's regime is hardly enlightened on the issue of LGBT rights, but Iraq has shown us that bad can always be much, much worse.

I see a troubling trend in the Arab Spring. If we look at Egypt, we see that Mubarak, as corrupt and repressive as he was, protected the religious minorities of Egypt, had relatively enlightened views about women's rights (relative to the Middle East), had a sane policy vis-a-vis Israel, and was more or less cooperating with American interests as our administration projects them. Whatever Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood say for now, I think history shows us that when they feel strong enough, there will be a reckoning, and it will be secularists, liberals, women, Christians, ethnic minorities, and members of the LGBT community that feel the brunt of Islamic law. I think about this and I worry that the same thing will happen if/when the domino falls in Syria.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Exactly. We need to find people we can install as leaders of those countries who will support our economic interests.

I hope that was sarcasm!

If not you should review some history.

 

[PrometheusBound]

I know one thing if enough Islamic Fundamentalists get in control of a majority of oil producing resources we won't have to worry about our addiction.

We built their oilfields; we do all the work on them now. It's time to take them back. Self-determination for nations determined to conquer us is a suicidal cause typical of decadent societies. We need a second Renaissance; the first was caused by a desperate search for reform after the Muslims seized Constantinople in 1453 and threatened to take over the rest of Europe. 9/11 was similar, but we responded with a war to preserve OPEC solidarity and another war to convert Afghanistan into a sweatshoppers' outsource. Since those two misdirected failures, we've been appeasing Islam in the brain-dead believe that it will have a Renaissance when it never had one before and never will until we reduce it to the poverty it deserves.

 

[zstep18]

Since those two misdirected failures, we've been appeasing Islam in the brain-dead believe that it will have a Renaissance when it never had one before and never will until we reduce it to the poverty it deserves.

You do realize Islam had a vibrant culture and made many contributions to science, medicine, arts, etc, throughout history, right?

 

[PrometheusBound]

You do realize Islam had a vibrant culture and made many contributions to science, medicine, arts, etc, throughout history, right?

Early on it was influenced by the civilized people it had conquered. That didn't last long. It rejected science as soon as its dominant savage genes took over again.

But don't take my word for it. Big Brotherhood Is Watching You!

 

[zstep18]

Early on it was influenced by the civilized people it had conquered. That didn't last long. It rejected science as soon as its dominant savage genes took over again.

But don't take my word for it. Big Brotherhood Is Watching You!

What are you talking about? Islam culture was ahead of its time.

 

[CJ 2.0]

What are you talking about? Islam culture was ahead of its time.

not as much as you would think.

 

[PrometheusBound]

What are you talking about? Islam culture was ahead of its time.

Way ahead. Its time is somewhere back in the Stone Age and it was inevitable that it would soon be pulled back to its natural place. It reminds me of this Sci-Fi movie where people had been sent into the future by a poorly constructed time machine. They would keep fading in and out until one by one they were finally sucked back to the time they had come from.

The terrorist who beheaded journalist Daniel Pearl is an example of this. Growing up in the UK, he was so acculurated that he had no problem with his school's mandatory daily attendance at Christian services! Then he became a Westernized businessman until he suddenly changed back into his natural form.

 

[zstep18]

not as much as you would think.

Well we have Islamic scientists to thank for trigonometry, advances in optics, developments of algebra, hospitals, and other Islamic contributions such as translating works from Greek and preserving Greek knowledge and many contributions to medicine, just to name a few.

 

[Ben K.]

not as much as you would think.

In the context of what you're replying to, im afraid it did.

 

[bicycleman]

The Arabs have moved on to a new phase in their modern history:

The Islamist Ascendancy - Charles Krauthammer - National Review Online

Yeah, now the purges of all opposition begins.

 

[Sherman123]

Yeah, now the purges of all opposition begins.

I really don't think there is any evidence of that yet. I'm concerned about the future of Egypt, but as yet Mursi has done a fairly decent job of navigating the waters. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and have the US on the proper side until we are given a real reason to withdraw our support. Until that time comes, and its not clear it ever will, there should be no doubt in Egypt that the US backs their new democracy.