• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Angry Rich

when are the wealth stealers going to figure out that the Obama clinton tax hikes is going to mean people are going to have to pay alot more than 3% more in taxes

why do the wealth stealers pretend others can afford a tax hike yet they cannot? Why don't you agree to pay the same increased tax percentage as those you want to soak?
Because we are the majority. Care to take a vote on the subject?
 
In this case, I agree. In the quoted article above, there are multiple things that jump out at me that can easily be reduced. For example the private schooling, the gardener, and the maid. These people will be just fine.

Why should they have to give up any of those things?
I'm pretty much poor, but I don't think I have a right to deprive someone's kids of private school. What right do I have to make someone give up the maid and gardener? Besides, did you even consider that's 2 jobs right there.
If I want a better lifestyle, then I better get in gear and do something about it. I don't need to steal from someone who happens to have more than I do.
Besides, no matter how rich or poor we are, we all have something we could give up. Why target only the wealthy?
 
Why should they have to give up any of those things?
I'm pretty much poor, but I don't think I have a right to deprive someone's kids of private school. What right do I have to make someone give up the maid and gardener? Besides, did you even consider that's 2 jobs right there.
If I want a better lifestyle, then I better get in gear and do something about it. I don't need to steal from someone who happens to have more than I do.
Besides, no matter how rich or poor we are, we all have something we could give up. Why target only the wealthy?

if only the wealthy were targeted, i wouldn't be paying a crapload of income tax. out of curiousity, do you pay much in taxes? since you consider yourself poor, i mean.
 
Why should they have to give up any of those things?

Because as much as conservatives like to declare it socialism, it makes much more sense to raise taxes on a wealthy guy, and risk the consequences that he'll have to live without a solid gold toilet rather than raise taxes on the poor, risking that the person loses their home, the car they use to go to work, or can't afford to feed their kid.
 
if only the wealthy were targeted, i wouldn't be paying a crapload of income tax. out of curiousity, do you pay much in taxes? since you consider yourself poor, i mean.

I should be ashamed of myself. I am in no way poor. I'm quite wealthy actually. I am pretty much debt free. I own my own mobile home on 2 acres. I have a 97' Ford pickup that runs great and only has 90,000 miles on it.

There have been lots of times in my life that I was middle class and yes it seemed like a crapload of taxes. However, I think everyone should have a little skin in the game.

We need a total overhaul of our tax system. Taxing the wealthy is not the answer.

The Republicans unveiled their Pledge to America today. I haven't seen it all but they plan to really help small businesses. They probably are going to be kind to the rich too. We have to stop demonizing the rich or they will continue to leave and take jobs with them.
Making the rich less rich will not help the middle class or poor. Redistribution of wealth doesn't create wealth, which is what we should be working on.
 
I should be ashamed of myself. I am in no way poor. I'm quite wealthy actually. I am pretty much debt free. I own my own mobile home on 2 acres. I have a 97' Ford pickup that runs great and only has 90,000 miles on it.

There have been lots of times in my life that I was middle class and yes it seemed like a crapload of taxes. However, I think everyone should have a little skin in the game.

We need a total overhaul of our tax system. Taxing the wealthy is not the answer.

The Republicans unveiled their Pledge to America today. I haven't seen it all but they plan to really help small businesses. They probably are going to be kind to the rich too. We have to stop demonizing the rich or they will continue to leave and take jobs with them.
Making the rich less rich will not help the middle class or poor. Redistribution of wealth doesn't create wealth, which is what we should be working on.

obama has been trying to do much for small business.......are you not aware of that? the bush taxes cuts DID NOT pay for themselves, and we increased debt and the deficit during his tenure. we need to let some of those tax cuts expire. the rich aren't going to leave or stop creating jobs, their tiny piece of additional income tax won't harm them one bit. you need to stop buying into everything beckrush says and do some research.
 
Why should they have to give up any of those things?
I'm pretty much poor, but I don't think I have a right to deprive someone's kids of private school. What right do I have to make someone give up the maid and gardener? Besides, did you even consider that's 2 jobs right there.
If I want a better lifestyle, then I better get in gear and do something about it. I don't need to steal from someone who happens to have more than I do.
Besides, no matter how rich or poor we are, we all have something we could give up. Why target only the wealthy?

The problem with this response is that you are looking at it from an interpersonal persective while this is better discussed from an overall systems perspective since that is ultimately how these decisions have to be made. The real answer is that this approach causes less harm and does more good than any other that I can think of.
 
Last edited:
every aspect of socialism? probably true. most know that the democrats have socialist tendencies or seek to advance some of the goals of socialism. and socialism in popular terminology means giving the wealth of some to others though that's technically closer to communism.

That isn't what socialism means. Don't give me that bull**** about "popular terminology." It's a fabrication of the right-wing so that they can paint the left with an evil-sounding word. Turtledude, you're a rapist. I don't mean that in the sense that you had non-consentual sex with someone, though, I'm using the popular terminology! Rapist.
 
You're basically giving a very worst case scenerio and inflating living expenses in my opinion, and even then these people would do perfectly fine, though they might have to drive the same car for two or three years before getting a new one.

The overwhelming majority of people earning over 250000 don't pay 60000 in student loans and the average cost of rent is way, way, way below 42k a year for a dinky apartment.

Have you ever lived in NYC? Did you attend graduate school in the past few years? Between my college/law school and my fiancee's college/med school, we have over $500k in student loans. That might be above average, but it's not for us nor is it for the guy who wrote the article in question. We live in an okay 1BR apartment in a meh neighborhood and pay $2700/month for rent. If we wanted a 2BR in our building, it would be more than $42k/year.

Even then if you earn 300000 your taxes go up 3% on 50k making them pay a mere 1500 dollars a year more. That ain't breaking the bank and you know it. At the most, a three percent raise in the top marginal tax rate would make a tiny, miniscule number of people look at their budgets and see if they're wasting money on useless stuff.

How about we look at your budget and see what's useless - I'm sure you can spare 3%. Did you take a trip anytime recently? Do you have a nice TV? Go out to any restaurants lately? Check out any movies/sporting events? You could drive an older car, right?

Doesn't sound so appealing when it's you, does it?

PS. RightinNYC You should fire your tax guy. The math is all wrong. The max in fedral taxes you would pay on $450k for 2010 is $127,808. Not sure your including State taxes but if so you should have stated it.

I figured that when I didn't specify federal taxes and didn't include state or city taxes elsewhere, that would make it pretty obvious that I was including them all in that figure.

Thats before those tax deductions for kids, school, childcare and your retirement shelters. You are taking deductions and sheltering your retirement right?

The vast majority of tax deductions are phased out for people earning over certain amounts.

In this case, I agree. In the quoted article above, there are multiple things that jump out at me that can easily be reduced. For example the private schooling, the gardener, and the maid. These people will be just fine.

Have you checked out the public schools in any major metropolitan area recently? Last year, over FIVE HUNDRED schoolkids were shot in Chicago.

The gardener and maid might sound extravagant, but why do you think many people earning that much have them? It's not because they're lazy, it's because in order to earn that "rich" amount of money, both people are working ridiculous hours. If you've got a house with both husband and wife working 60+ hours, you don't have the same freedom to spend time cleaning or mowing the lawn that a household with one stay at home parent and one guy working 40 hrs/week does.
 
Idiots like Obama and most of the Radical Socialists/Marxists he has made Czars and advisers are in the I got mine screw you club. They are on the PUBLIC dole and most never had a real Job like Obama himself.

YOU are calling HIM an.... emm... lemme rephrase that.... "radical", "socialist", "marxist"???? "Czars"? do you know what ANY of those words means?

geo.
 
Last edited:
Have you ever lived in NYC? Did you attend graduate school in the past few years? Between my college/law school and my fiancee's college/med school, we have over $500k in student loans. That might be above average, but it's not for us nor is it for the guy who wrote the article in question. We live in an okay 1BR apartment in a meh neighborhood and pay $2700/month for rent. If we wanted a 2BR in our building, it would be more than $42k/year.

Dude move out of Manhattan live in Greenpoint or Red Hook or Jamaica. I had 1800 sq ft in Park Slope with a parking space for 1200.
 
Dude move out of Manhattan live in Greenpoint or Red Hook or Jamaica. I had 1800 sq ft in Park Slope with a parking space for 1200.

I'd love to live someplace like Park Slope, but my girl's rotations take her all over the place including outside the city. West side is the best place to keep both of our commutes under 45 minutes. Park Slope is supposedly the best neighborhood in NYC, but even there, 2BRs now average $2600/mo.
 
That isn't what socialism means. Don't give me that bull**** about "popular terminology." It's a fabrication of the right-wing so that they can paint the left with an evil-sounding word. Turtledude, you're a rapist. I don't mean that in the sense that you had non-consentual sex with someone, though, I'm using the popular terminology! Rapist.

This mission statement from a socialist party seems to fit the president, many in his administration, in congress and some on DP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Socialist Party USA [New Window]
THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control - a non-racist, classless, ...
Socialist Party USA

from the SPUSA Statement of Principles....THE SOCIALIST PARTY strives to establish a radical democracy that places people's lives under their own control - a non-racist, classless, feminist socialist society... where working people own and control the means of production and distribution through democratically-controlled public agencies; where full employment is realized for everyone who wants to work; where workers have the right to form unions freely, and to strike and engage in other forms of job actions; and where the production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few. We believe socialism and democracy are one and indivisible. The working class is in a key and central position to fight back against the ruling capitalist class and its power. The working class is the major force worldwide that can lead the way to a socialist future - to a real radical democracy from below. The Socialist Party fights for progressive changes compatible with a socialist future. We support militant working class struggles and electoral action, independent of the capitalist controlled two-party system, to present socialist alternatives. We strive for democratic revolutions - radical and fundamental changes in the structure and quality of economic, political, and personal relations - to abolish the power now exercised by the few who control great wealth and the government. The Socialist Party is a democratic, multi-tendency organization, with structure and practices visible and accessible to all members. Join us
 
the SPUSA does not define socialism as most people understand it. listen to yourself and your comrades. what the Socialist Party advocates is not what the folks you CALL socialist advocate. so... are you right or are they right? When you condemn euro-socialism which is NOT anything like what the SCUSA advocates are they not socialist or are you misusing the term when you apply it to them? when you classify m. Obama's policy as 'socialist' even though they have nothing to do with "own[ing] and control[ing] the means of production and distribution", are you deliberately attempting to slander a responsible president or simply parroting those who truly DO hate him for getting between them and greater wealth and power?

or simply being deliberately disingenuous for political purposes?

if you are like most of the people who offer this lame pretense of argument, i got a feeling i know the answer to those questions.

geo.
 
Last edited:
That isn't what socialism means. Don't give me that bull**** about "popular terminology." It's a fabrication of the right-wing so that they can paint the left with an evil-sounding word. Turtledude, you're a rapist. I don't mean that in the sense that you had non-consentual sex with someone, though, I'm using the popular terminology! Rapist.

Yawn-take a poll of American voters and ask them what socialism means to them. most-both those who support it and those who do not will say it mainly involves income redistribution or the gvoernment taking care of the lazy or the unlucky or both. And calling me a rapist is a violation of the board rules and being an attorney rather well versed in the criminal law, rapist means forced sex or sex with a minor
BTW there are lots of people like Hoplite who call themselves socialists, I have never heard a normal person brag about being a "rapist"
 
I'm not discounting the difficulty of your situation. But you have enough to make choices that many other's do not have available to them. These would include educational choices, medical coverage, the ability to provide adequate housing & food nutrition for their families. I recently attended a Christian conference where missionaries are working here in the United Stated. The median age for those they reach is 21. On one of the reservations an average of two people die per week. For many children the only meal they get is what they receive from the lunch program at school. In this country, we have grown complacent to the needs that exist. I remember when doctors, and others, cared enough to barter in exchange for services. We will spend billions to fight wars but somehow, it's economically unsound to take care of our children, disabled, veterans (how ironic), ill, homeless, etc. What does this say about us as a nation.
 
I just saw Donald Trump on,( I think it was) Wolfe Blitzer. He's none too happy with the way things are going and it sounds like he has angry friends that are talking of leaving. When asked if it was just because of the possible tax increase. he said that was part of it but also because one friend just found out the HC bill is going to cost him 100 million dollars. He says he has always made sure his empoyees had excellent health care. With the HC bill and raising taxes, we are going to see a lot of the wealthy leaving for more business friendly countries.
The Republicans Pledge to America, has all kinds of goodies for businesses. Hope it's not too late. This president hates anyone trying to make a profit.

If it means not seeing the trump hairpiece on TV anymore, I'll help him pack....
BTW, just which countries are more business friendly?
 
If it means not seeing the trump hairpiece on TV anymore, I'll help him pack....
BTW, just which countries are more business friendly?

He was talking about places where the personal income tax was lower than here. He mentioned that many of these rich folks have homes and travel throughout the world, so it would not be a big deal to change citizenship, much like middle class people move to different states.


I don't know the tax laws in the different countries, but just think about a rich, old billionaire. Do you think it makes sense to pay the federal government 55% of your wealth, when all you have to do is change address to shelter it.
 
He was talking about places where the personal income tax was lower than here. He mentioned that many of these rich folks have homes and travel throughout the world, so it would not be a big deal to change citizenship, much like middle class people move to different states.


I don't know the tax laws in the different countries, but just think about a rich, old billionaire. Do you think it makes sense to pay the federal government 55% of your wealth, when all you have to do is change address to shelter it.
Trump can't get his ego stroked anywhere better than where he is.
Who is paying 55%? The USA, even before Bush, has better tax rates than most of the rest of the free world....
 
If it means not seeing the trump hairpiece on TV anymore, I'll help him pack....
BTW, just which countries are more business friendly?


How many times have his companies gone belly up now?
 
He was talking about places where the personal income tax was lower than here. He mentioned that many of these rich folks have homes and travel throughout the world, so it would not be a big deal to change citizenship, much like middle class people move to different states.


I don't know the tax laws in the different countries, but just think about a rich, old billionaire. Do you think it makes sense to pay the federal government 55% of your wealth, when all you have to do is change address to shelter it.

If you think any billionaires are paying 55% in federal income taxes, I don't know what to tell you. Effective tax rate actually goes down at the extreme upper ends, thanks to the lower capital gains tax mostly. This is what triggered the quote in my signature by Mr. Buffet, he discovered he was actually paying a lower effective tax than most of his employees.
 
If you think any billionaires are paying 55% in federal income taxes, I don't know what to tell you. Effective tax rate actually goes down at the extreme upper ends, thanks to the lower capital gains tax mostly. This is what triggered the quote in my signature by Mr. Buffet, he discovered he was actually paying a lower effective tax than most of his employees.

The 55% is the inheritance tax rate. Not the rate on ordinary income. Should have spelled that out.

As far as Buffet is concerned, most of his income comes from long term capital gains. It is silly to use Buffet as a example. One of the richest people in the world with very little(comparatively) ordinary income.
 
Probably a safe bet that most of the people that are upset at the 'super-rich' for wanting to keep what is theirs are people that are unemployed, underemployed, and probably a good share of them still live with mommy and havent earned enough to have to actually file a 1040 without the EZ part.

John Kerry bought a yacht and moored it out of state to avoid paying taxes...Charlie Rangel has been avoiding taxes for decades...rich elitist liberal assholes are everywhere...imagine those scumbags not wanting to give all their (inherited) wealth to the poor...
 
Nobody should be talking about increased taxes without first insisting that the government greatly decrease spending. You are blowing smoke up everyone's ass about this not being simply class envy. Just why in the hell would you give more money to a government you know is out of control on spending. And like the man in the article said: "But more importantly, what is the theory under which collecting this money in taxes and deciding in Washington how to spend it is superior to our decisions?". The Federal Government doesn't need a dime more than what we are giving them now. The government needs to stop living like they have a budget only limited by how much they can tax the people.
 
Nobody should be talking about increased taxes without first insisting that the government greatly decrease spending. You are blowing smoke up everyone's ass about this not being simply class envy. Just why in the hell would you give more money to a government you know is out of control on spending. And like the man in the article said: "But more importantly, what is the theory under which collecting this money in taxes and deciding in Washington how to spend it is superior to our decisions?". The Federal Government doesn't need a dime more than what we are giving them now. The government needs to stop living like they have a budget only limited by how much they can tax the people.
Finally, someone said something smart. I don't get how it can be so difficult to spend 3.4trillion dollars and then to have a deficit. If I overspent the same government that overspends would then say you need to declare bankruptacy and then afterwards we will be taking all of you money until you pay off your debt to us. Hyprocrites.
 
Back
Top Bottom