• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Alternative

RGacky3

DP Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
9,570
Reaction score
1,493
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
How Successful Cooperative Economic Models Can Work Wonderfully

The cooperative.

It takes away the problems that come with for profit (i'm using the word profit to mean the wealth extracted by the capitalist from the worker), it takes care of many negative externality problems, it keeps wealth within the community, it raises wages, wages raise WITH productivity, it democratises the economy, gets rid of the class conflict, it also avoids problems with nationalization.

This is the model we should be working towards.
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
21,940
Reaction score
9,975
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
How Successful Cooperative Economic Models Can Work Wonderfully

The cooperative.

It takes away the problems that come with for profit (i'm using the word profit to mean the wealth extracted by the capitalist from the worker), it takes care of many negative externality problems, it keeps wealth within the community, it raises wages, wages raise WITH productivity, it democratises the economy, gets rid of the class conflict, it also avoids problems with nationalization.

This is the model we should be working towards.
Only if doing so is by choice.

A person who takes on the monumental risk involved with starting a business should not be expected to hand over the keys the moment they hire people.
 

Mach

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
20,388
Reaction score
11,954
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
It's just describing union-like activity.
"Many co-ops contract with the government to provide various services. "

I'm sure they do. The parasitic nature of institutions that feed off taxpayers and government mismanagement is not an alternative I would suggest to anyone in the U.S., it's absurd. Italy? A paradise of private business run by he mafia and backed by a thoroughly corrupt political system. This is your alternative?

At the end of the day, you and your leftist buddies, if you're in the U.S., have your economic freedom to pursue these types of dreams as a result of people identifying freedom as priority over all this other ideological crap. That's right, they fought for freedom, and you're free to pursue this cooperative.

So put up the revolution that never was, and get to work :) and try fighting to preserve that freedom rather than to take it away, you know, it's more self-consistent that way.
 

Xerographica

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
2,071
Reaction score
163
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The cooperative.

It takes away the problems that come with for profit (i'm using the word profit to mean the wealth extracted by the capitalist from the worker), it takes care of many negative externality problems, it keeps wealth within the community, it raises wages, wages raise WITH productivity, it democratises the economy, gets rid of the class conflict, it also avoids problems with nationalization.

This is the model we should be working towards.
As long as the government doesn't interfere...then why would any market proponents be against cooperatives? In fact, I started a thread on the very topic ...

Like I've said a million times before...nobody is stopping you from starting/joining a cooperative. If your cooperative provides consumers with more value for their money...then consumers will give you more money and your competitors will lose revenue.

Where's the difficulty? What are you waiting for?
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,091
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think you've proposed this before, using the same example.
 
C

cwbinuk

How Successful Cooperative Economic Models Can Work Wonderfully

The cooperative.

It takes away the problems that come with for profit (i'm using the word profit to mean the wealth extracted by the capitalist from the worker), it takes care of many negative externality problems, it keeps wealth within the community, it raises wages, wages raise WITH productivity, it democratises the economy, gets rid of the class conflict, it also avoids problems with nationalization.

This is the model we should be working towards.
What would you suggest in the following situation:
I work for a collective, I don't consume every dollar I earn. I save my money in a box under my bed. Eventually I have a several tens of thousands of dollars. I don't want to waste it on something stupid & materialistic, like a new sports car or a vacation that I don't need. What can I do with the money?
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
What would you suggest in the following situation:
I work for a collective, I don't consume every dollar I earn. I save my money in a box under my bed. Eventually I have a several tens of thousands of dollars. I don't want to waste it on something stupid & materialistic, like a new sports car or a vacation that I don't need. What can I do with the money?
Unless you are saving it for retirement or an emergency, to create a sense of security, I assume that your excess money has no value to you.

It's not uncommon for zillionares to not really value their money, thats part of the reason that they will just hand over money to scam artists like Madeoff.

It's also part of the reason that I don't understand the objection to the progressive income tax system that goes something like this "it's not fair to the rich". How is it not fair, when all it does it take away excess money that they don't really need? Would it do Bill Gates any harm to tax away an extra $1? Would it reduce his sense of security or his standard of living any? If something does no harm to an individual, it can't be "unfair" to him.
 

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
20,723
Reaction score
8,146
Location
Venice Beach, FL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Only if doing so is by choice.

A person who takes on the monumental risk involved with starting a business should not be expected to hand over the keys the moment they hire people.
Agreed. The worker ownership model would only be applicable to medium and large businesses.
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
How Successful Cooperative Economic Models Can Work Wonderfully

The cooperative.

It takes away the problems that come with for profit (i'm using the word profit to mean the wealth extracted by the capitalist from the worker), it takes care of many negative externality problems, it keeps wealth within the community, it raises wages, wages raise WITH productivity, it democratises the economy, gets rid of the class conflict, it also avoids problems with nationalization.

This is the model we should be working towards.
Why should we work toward that model?
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Unless you are saving it for retirement or an emergency, to create a sense of security, I assume that your excess money has no value to you.

It's not uncommon for zillionares to not really value their money, thats part of the reason that they will just hand over money to scam artists like Madeoff.

It's also part of the reason that I don't understand the objection to the progressive income tax system that goes something like this "it's not fair to the rich". How is it not fair, when all it does it take away excess money that they don't really need? Would it do Bill Gates any harm to tax away an extra $1? Would it reduce his sense of security or his standard of living any? If something does no harm to an individual, it can't be "unfair" to him.
Would you suffer any real harm if all of your assets were taken away and you were forced to live a Sub-Saharan African lifestyle?

I guess it's different when we're talking about taking other people's things though.
 

KevinKohler

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
21,940
Reaction score
9,975
Location
CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Would you suffer any real harm if all of your assets were taken away and you were forced to live a Sub-Saharan African lifestyle?

I guess it's different when we're talking about taking other people's things though.
So any and all taxation is wrong in your opinion. Anarchist.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Would you suffer any real harm if all of your assets were taken away and you were forced to live a Sub-Saharan African lifestyle?
Of course.

I guess it's different when we're talking about taking other people's things though.
Nope, I never suggested taking away all of anyones assets and forcing them to live a "Sub-Saharan African lifestyle".

Good grief, thats the best you can come up with?
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Nope, I never suggested taking away all of anyones assets and forcing them to live a "Sub-Saharan African lifestyle".

Good grief, thats the best you can come up with?
You said if it's not really causing any harm that it isn't really unfair as justification for taking their stuff.

What real harm would come to you if all of your positions were taken away?
 

Xerographica

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
2,071
Reaction score
163
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
You said if it's not really causing any harm that it isn't really unfair as justification for taking their stuff.

What real harm would come to you if all of your positions were taken away?
What real benefit is there to allowing you to keep all your possessions? Surely some portion of your possessions have to be taken away to pay for defense, courts and police?
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What real benefit is there to allowing you to keep all your possessions? Surely some portion of your possessions have to be taken away to pay for defense, courts and police?
Why?

Can't I just keep all my possessions and you forfeit all yours?
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
So you really don't have any argument in favor of allowing you to keep all your possessions.
The argument is that I want them.

I don't see what the big deal is.

I want mine but you don't want yours, so let's just take yours and we'll both be happy.
 

Xerographica

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
2,071
Reaction score
163
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The argument is that I want them.

I don't see what the big deal is.

I want mine but you don't want yours, so let's just take yours and we'll both be happy.
Weaksauce. First go and learn the economic arguments for liberty and then come back when you have something of value to share. Bastiat is a good place to start.
 

Dapper Andy

Banned
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
913
Reaction score
310
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Weaksauce. First go and learn the economic arguments for liberty and then come back when you have something of value to share. Bastiat is a good place to start.
In other words: When liberals talk about sharing the wealth they never mean their own.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You said if it's not really causing any harm that it isn't really unfair as justification for taking their stuff.

What real harm would come to you if all of your positions were taken away?
I said it didn't cause harm when EXCESS was taxed away. Not when needed resources were taxed away.
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
In other words: When liberals talk about sharing the wealth they never mean their own.
Xerographica is far from a liberal.

I've been accused of being a liberal more than once, but I have never met a liberal who believes that we should end all means tested welfare, so I don't think the liberal tag fits me much better.
 
Top Bottom