The ACLU will kill us all yet.

[Navy Pride]

Without the heroic efforts of the ACLU we would be under the scrutiny of the government instead of the government being under the scrutiny of us. I thank the stars everyday that the ACLU is around. They ensure that our basic freedoms from government are secure.

As for the case the ACLU has taken involving the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), they are not defending the act of pedophilia. They are defending the right of the organization to exist and express themselves. A man who had viewed NAMBLA material killed a young boy. The man is in prison now for life without the chance of parole. Now the family of the boy is suing NAMBLA because the killer had their materials. The killer's actions are not the responsibility of NAMBLA; they are his actions and his responsibility alone. This is another case of parents looking for people to blame for their child's death when the person to blame is already being punished. They mistakenly believe that the way to ease their pain is by blaming as many people as possible. As much as we all disagree with NAMBLA's ideologies, it is their right to exist and express themselves in a non-criminal manner, which they have.

Source:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38540,00.html

And let me guess, you don't see a connection?:roll:

 

[shuamort]

It is pretty obvious you have never had children.......As far as I am concerned any adult that preys on and innocent child deserve no defense............I believe that pedophiles should be executed and I do know all the facts.............

do you?

NAMBLA had posted on there website their wants to change the age of consent. Something which advocated their position. Although I find their position, actions, and ideas completely deplorable, they are well within their rights to say them. I feel the same way about the Nazis and homophobes who have traipsed across the boards with their ideas. I may virulently and violently disagree with them, but I think it's absolutely their right to express them and I'll defend that right while admonishing their ideas.

 

[Deegan]

Their mission statement....

"WELCOME! The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston's gay community to defend against a local witchhunt.

NAMBLA's goal is to end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships by:

building understanding and support for such relationships;
educating the general public on the benevolent nature of man/boy love;
cooperating with lesbian, gay, feminist, and other liberation movements;
supporting the liberation of persons of all ages from sexual prejudice and oppression.
Our membership is open to everyone sympathetic to man/boy love and personal freedom.
NAMBLA calls for the empowerment of youth in all areas, not just the sexual. We support greater economic, political and social opportunities for young people and denounce the rampant ageism that segregates and isolates them in fear and mistrust. We believe sexual feelings are a positive life force. We support the rights of youth as well as adults to choose the partners with whom they wish to share and enjoy their bodies.

We condemn sexual abuse and all forms of coercion. Freely-chosen relationships differ from unwanted sex. Present laws, which focus only on the age of the participants, ignore the quality of their relationships. We know that differences in age do not preclude mutual, loving interaction between persons. NAMBLA is strongly opposed to age-of-consent laws and all other restrictions which deny men and boys the full enjoyment of their bodies and control over their own lives.

NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law, nor do we advocate that anyone else should do so.

We call for fundamental reform of the laws regarding relations between youths and adults. Today, many thousands of men and boys are unjustly ground into the disfunctional criminal justice system. Blindly, this system condemns consensual, loving relationships between younger and older people. NAMBLA's Prisoner Program, with limited resources, works to provide a modicum of humanity to some of these people. Click here to find out more.

NAMBLA is a political, civil rights, and educational organization. We provide factual information and help educate society about the positive and beneficial nature of man/boy love.

I don't agree with this message, and the facts are these, many young boys experiment at the young age of 7 to 10, should these men be free to enjoy relations with these children, even if the children can be talked in to it, or even if they make the decision on their own? When are children really able to decide what's best for them, 7, 8, 10, I THINK NOT!

 

[shuamort]

I don't agree with this message, and the facts are these, many young boys experiment at the young age of 7 to 10, should these men be free to enjoy relations with these children, even if the children can be talked in to it, or even if they make the decision on their own? When are children really able to decide what's best for them, 7, 8, 10, I THINK NOT!

Not even with parental consent should children that young be doing that stuff. If I can be blunt, these are some sick mofos and castration isn't good enough for this.

 

[gdalton]

Would you consider it un-constitutional to be searched when entering a court house? How bout a plane? You know some schools have metal detecters and the students can only use see through bags which are searched randomly every now and then. Now why do you think they do all these searches at these places? Tell me what constitutional right protects you from being searched before entering into a business? If you try to cite illegal search and seizure then maybe you just don't get the point. And if you don't think the subways and public busses are a business then why do you think they charge us to ride.
And just my two cents but holy crap that NAMBLA is very ***ked up. I refuse to comment on that situation.

 

[cnredd]

And just my two cents but holy crap that NAMBLA is very ***ked up. I refuse to comment on that situation.

I have no problem commenting on NAMBLA...here is my comment....

snip!

 

[Deegan]

Kids like these are at even more risk with groups like NAMBLA around and allowed to function, this is my belief, and my anger grows with the ACLU supporting them.

 

[Alex]

Their mission statement....

"WELCOME! The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) was formed in 1978. It was inspired by the success of a campaign based in Boston's gay community to defend against a local witchhunt.

NAMBLA's goal is to end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships by:

building understanding and support for such relationships;
educating the general public on the benevolent nature of man/boy love;
cooperating with lesbian, gay, feminist, and other liberation movements;
supporting the liberation of persons of all ages from sexual prejudice and oppression.
Our membership is open to everyone sympathetic to man/boy love and personal freedom.
NAMBLA calls for the empowerment of youth in all areas, not just the sexual. We support greater economic, political and social opportunities for young people and denounce the rampant ageism that segregates and isolates them in fear and mistrust. We believe sexual feelings are a positive life force. We support the rights of youth as well as adults to choose the partners with whom they wish to share and enjoy their bodies.

We condemn sexual abuse and all forms of coercion. Freely-chosen relationships differ from unwanted sex. Present laws, which focus only on the age of the participants, ignore the quality of their relationships. We know that differences in age do not preclude mutual, loving interaction between persons. NAMBLA is strongly opposed to age-of-consent laws and all other restrictions which deny men and boys the full enjoyment of their bodies and control over their own lives.

NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law, nor do we advocate that anyone else should do so.

We call for fundamental reform of the laws regarding relations between youths and adults. Today, many thousands of men and boys are unjustly ground into the disfunctional criminal justice system. Blindly, this system condemns consensual, loving relationships between younger and older people. NAMBLA's Prisoner Program, with limited resources, works to provide a modicum of humanity to some of these people. Click here to find out more.

NAMBLA is a political, civil rights, and educational organization. We provide factual information and help educate society about the positive and beneficial nature of man/boy love.

I don't agree with this message, and the facts are these, many young boys experiment at the young age of 7 to 10, should these men be free to enjoy relations with these children, even if the children can be talked in to it, or even if they make the decision on their own? When are children really able to decide what's best for them, 7, 8, 10, I THINK NOT!

Did you read this part? "NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law, nor do we advocate that anyone else should do so. "

The ACLU is not supporting NAMBLA's ideologies; they are fighting for their right to free speech. NAMBLA has not committed any crime. No one can show where they have. When organizations like this are expected to take the blame for someone else's actions, it is removing the blame from the person who committed the crime. People who commit crimes are responsible for their actions, not anyone else. Why should criminals care about their own actions when they can pass the blame on to someone else? If NAMBLA is responsible for children being abused then should carmakers be liable for car accidents that were the fault of the driver?

 

[Deegan]

Did you read this part? "NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law, nor do we advocate that anyone else should do so. "

The ACLU is not supporting NAMBLA's ideologies; they are fighting for their right to free speech. NAMBLA has not committed any crime. No one can show where they have. When organizations like this are expected to take the blame for someone else's actions, it is removing the blame from the person who committed the crime. People who commit crimes are responsible for their actions, not anyone else. Why should criminals care about their own actions when they can pass the blame on to someone else? If NAMBLA is responsible for children being abused then should carmakers be liable for car accidents that were the fault of the driver?

Sure they don't, but the truth is we all know they do, but you confess to be gay, I don't doubt you would defend them, to each his own I guess.:roll:

 

[shuamort]

Sure they don't, but the truth is we all know they do, but you confess to be gay, I don't doubt you would defend them, to each his own I guess.:roll:

Let's keep the debate about the topic and not make personal attacks, mm'kay?

 

[Deegan]

Let's keep the debate about the topic and not make personal attacks, mm'kay?

What about that statement does not relate to the topic?

He/she is the one who has professed to the world his/her sexual preference, and I am excusing him/her of bias, it's more then fair, and could not be further from a personal attack, that is unless you have something against being gay?

 

[shuamort]

What about that statement does not relate to the topic?

He/she is the one who has professed to the world his/her sexual preference, and I am excusing him/her of bias, it's more then fair, and could not be further from a personal attack, that is unless you have something against being gay?

I have something against equating pedophilia to homosexuality.

 

[Deegan]

I have something against equating pedophilia to homosexuality.

So do I, and I did no such thing here, only suspicious of a bias is all, nothing more.

 

[shuamort]

So do I, and I did no such thing here, only suspicious of a bias is all, nothing more.

Why would Alex have a bias about a pedophile's organisation based on Alex's sexuality?

 

[Deegan]

Why would Alex have a bias about a pedophile's organisation based on Alex's sexuality?

I don't know, that was what I was attempting to find out. I assume it's like a policeman who knows his buddy is on the take, and covers for him, even though he has never taken a bribe in his life?

As to this issue, the mission statement just appears to contradict it's self. It says boys should have a choice to have sex with a man, but then says it does not want the laws broken. So are we all to believe they are just sitting back, watching child porn, and biding their time until the day the laws change?:roll:

 

[debate_junkie]

So let me get this straight:
You are afraid that we're all gonna die unless we give away our rights
We don't want to give away our rights
And thus we're paranoid.
Do you see the flaws in your logic.

A rational American realizes that we don't need to give away our rights if our government does its job. You apparently don't view the role of government to protect us, even though I'm sure your down with the billions of dollars (your tax dollars) we spend on security, but you feel that even when they have all these brilliant people and the billions of dollars they spend, and they can't protect us within the rules of the United States.
I honestly don't know how you can even consider yourself an American. You're a coward, since you're so willing to sacrifice all that America stands for (i.e. exactly what the terrorists want us to do) just because you're scared. Just for reference, there's nothing in Missouri worth blowing up. Along with that, you seem to hate freedom, and people who think freedom is something worth defending, so I really can't comprehend how you consider yourself an American.

No we shouldn't have to give up our rights... BUT... in recent light have you any other suggestions on keeping bombs out of subways in NY? Is it the random searches the ACLU has a problem with? Ok... if that is so... what if everyone were searched.. like they do in airports? But then... how early would someone have to be on the platform, to be searched, before their train leaves? 2 hours? 3? Something has to give.. and rather than just badmouth any idea that comes along.. how would you suggest NYC keep the subways from becoming Madrid?

 

[shuamort]

I don't know, that was what I was attempting to find out. I assume it's like a policeman who knows his buddy is on the take, and covers for him, even though he has never taken a bribe in his life?

Not at all, pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality.

As to this issue, the mission statement just appears to contradict it's self. It says boys should have a choice to have sex with a man, but then says it does not want the laws broken. So are we all to believe they are just sitting back, watching child porn, and biding their time until the day the laws change?:roll:

Their purpose is to make change to the laws. Just like the libertarian party has the right to say that we should make prostitution and drugs legal. They're supporting views that are illegal currently as well, the question is should their free speech be limited because they are wanting to make legal what is currently illegal?

 

[Deegan]

Not at all, pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality.


Their purpose is to make change to the laws. Just like the libertarian party has the right to say that we should make prostitution and drugs legal. They're supporting views that are illegal currently as well, the question is should their free speech be limited because they are wanting to make legal what is currently illegal?

Once again, I don't know where you are getting confused here, I never said pedophilia equates to homosexuality, or vice versa.

I am not at all for changing the laws to allow men to have sex with boys, I think they are wasting their time at best, and endagering children at worst. I guess will will have to agree to disagree.

 

[shuamort]

Once again, I don't know where you are getting confused here, I never said pedophilia equates to homosexuality, or vice versa.

but you confess to be gay, I don't doubt you would defend them, to each his own I guess

Your position that you said that since Alex is gay, you don't doubt that Alex would defend them. Maybe you can explain why you think that.

I am not at all for changing the laws to allow men to have sex with boys, I think they are wasting their time at best, and endagering children at worst. I guess will will have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you there. But I still have to say that even though I hate their position and even more hate having to defend them, I still think they have a constitutional right to say what they have said.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I'm from the north, I don't get the vapors.
I'll tell you what I've gotten from your argument:
You don't think freedom is important
You think that you don't need to respond to specific points because you have studied history, yet you don't say the facts you know, just that you know the facts
You hate America

Is that about right?

No, and it is utter nonsense to say so.

 

[Alex]

No, and it is utter nonsense to say so.

I do not believe that you "hate" America. I do believe that you don't care for or you do not understand the concepts of this country, though. This country is about freedom and liberty. That includes free speech. It means that people have the right to try to change laws or peaceably oppose the existing laws without government harassment. NAMBLA has the right to believe the laws on consensual sex are wrong and they have a right to speak out about it. They are not responsible for any individual's actions.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Did you read this part? "NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law, nor do we advocate that anyone else should do so. "

The ACLU is not supporting NAMBLA's ideologies; they are fighting for their right to free speech. NAMBLA has not committed any crime. No one can show where they have. When organizations like this are expected to take the blame for someone else's actions, it is removing the blame from the person who committed the crime. People who commit crimes are responsible for their actions, not anyone else. Why should criminals care about their own actions when they can pass the blame on to someone else? If NAMBLA is responsible for children being abused then should carmakers be liable for car accidents that were the fault of the driver?

I don't give a hoot about anyone's sexual orieintation but let's face it, Nambla ought to be shut down as an outlaw organization. What two consenting adults do is their business but with children -- throw them under the jail, castrate then and expose them for the evil monsters they are. Tattoo "child molester" on their foreheads if necessary.

That fact that ACLU comes within a country mile of these perverted creeps speaks volumes.

 

[Deegan]

I do not believe that you "hate" America. I do believe that you don't care for or you do not understand the concepts of this country, though. This country is about freedom and liberty. That includes free speech. It means that people have the right to try to change laws or peaceably oppose the existing laws without government harassment. NAMBLA has the right to believe the laws on consensual sex are wrong and they have a right to speak out about it. They are not responsible for any individual's actions.

How old do these boys have to be to bed them, I mean, really, what is your age limit? Do you bed 7 year olds? Do you think that is o.k, even if they are willing, and the sex is consensual? Do you not disent when a president says, "send our boys to die", do you not scream, "who is he to dictate who lives, and who dies", who are you, and who is NAMBLA to now cry, we want our little boys, and we want them now? What is next, we all get behind the law to make slaves of ugly people, or retarded people, people who don't fit in to the mold that we have all set for society? Would you honestly respect, and get behind that freedom of speech?

 

[Alex]

I don't give a hoot about anyone's sexual orieintation but let's face it, Nambla ought to be shut down as an outlaw organization. What two consenting adults do is their business but with children -- throw them under the jail, castrate then and expose them for the evil monsters they are. Tattoo "child molester" on their foreheads if necessary.

That fact that ACLU comes within a country mile of these perverted creeps speaks volumes.

An "outlaw organization"? What laws have they broken?

 

[Missouri Mule]

An "outlaw organization"? What laws have they broken?

Oh, I would say an organization so far out of the bounds of human propriety that they shouldn't be allowed on the planet. That may not have yet been codified in law but they ought to be.