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The abortion issue, what is it all about?

Here's the real question, is abortion nothing more than laws created by some people's religious beliefs? Is that the road america is choosing to pursue? Abortion is not murder according to the law that the party of law and order obviously disagrees, so that to me means they are basing their idea of murder on religious beliefs.

So, what is the issue with abortion and are we now passing laws on religious beliefs?
So doe the law determine what is right and wrong in your view?

You didn't seem to them this through.
 
The problem with abortion is that two sides are in a cat fight and everyone's losing. To my thinking, the right and left should get together to reduce the number of abortions rather than fighting about whether it's legal our illegal. They should go hand-in-hand and talk about abstinence on the right, birth control on the left, and both sides should stress about how no means no and it's okay not to have sex. Then we'd have fewer abortions.
You just made it a three way cat fight.
 
Here's the real question, is abortion nothing more than laws created by some people's religious beliefs? Is that the road america is choosing to pursue?
That's a chicken and egg question. Did priests develop morality or did feelings of moral outrage shape the priesthood? It is sufficient to say that every religion of which I am aware abhors abortion. So do the secular legal codes, many consdering it murder. Loopholes, backdoors, and blind eyes are just as common. Historically, it is closely associated with infanticide, likely because reasonable medical procedures did not exist. .

Abortion is not murder according to the law that the party of law and order obviously disagrees
That is currently true in USA. Historically speaking it would be false.

so that to me means they are basing their idea of murder on religious beliefs.
Poor logic. You began with a conclusion and seek to justify it.

So, what is the issue with abortion and are we now passing laws on religious beliefs?
First, stop treating it as a religious issue because doing so is inappropriate. True, many religions and sects teach that it is sinful, but it is also a moral/ethical issue entirely apart from religion.

It is not a single issue. The stage of the pregnancy is also important. While the Roman church teaches that life--meaning personhood-- begins at conception, the church has few allies. A significant majority support measures within the first trimester. A similar majority opposes abortion of a viable fetus. The current laws which allow abortion on demand are considered too permissive, especially at later stages in the pregnancy.
 
Because the unborn is a direct killing of someone that can not be defended. It is the worst of the worst
So an abortion is worse than what putin is doing in ukraine killing innocent folks? Again, if it is killing or murder as some like to say, why are doctors not charged with the crime of intentional murder?
 
not religious at all------------------killing of humans is just wrong by any standards, unless in self-defense
I don't see these red state governors who have a hard on about abortion showing the same interest in ukraine where thousands of innocent folks are being killed.
 
That's a chicken and egg question. Did priests develop morality or did feelings of moral outrage shape the priesthood? It is sufficient to say that every religion of which I am aware abhors abortion. So do the secular legal codes, many consdering it murder. Loopholes, backdoors, and blind eyes are just as common. Historically, it is closely associated with infanticide, likely because reasonable medical procedures did not exist. .


That is currently true in USA. Historically speaking it would be false.


Poor logic. You began with a conclusion and seek to justify it.


First, stop treating it as a religious issue because doing so is inappropriate. True, many religions and sects teach that it is sinful, but it is also a moral/ethical issue entirely apart from religion.

It is not a single issue. The stage of the pregnancy is also important. While the Roman church teaches that life--meaning personhood-- begins at conception, the church has few allies. A significant majority support measures within the first trimester. A similar majority opposes abortion of a viable fetus. The current laws which allow abortion on demand are considered too permissive, especially at later stages in the pregnancy.
Priests, morality? Maybe you should read about the history of some of the popes? You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth concerning religion. You say it isn't a religious issue then you say every religion abhors abortion. I wonder if the old testament abhorred child sacrifice? The church says, means zero to me.

I think some of the folks who think it's a moral issue, should check their own morals.
 
The willingness of one group of h. sapiens to impose their will upon another group is demonstrable throughout much of our history. It is part of what we are.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 
Here's the real question, is abortion nothing more than laws created by some people's religious beliefs? Is that the road america is choosing to pursue? Abortion is not murder according to the law that the party of law and order obviously disagrees, so that to me means they are basing their idea of murder on religious beliefs.

So, what is the issue with abortion and are we now passing laws on religious beliefs?

NO matter what is said or felt abortions bannings are controlling and oppressing women.THey lessen their legal, civil, equal and human rights and treat and value them as lesser. No way around that reality.

This is why the vast majority of first world countries with governments based on rights and freedoms typically have pro-choice laws and the countries that typically have pro-life laws do not have governments based on rights and freedoms and are dictatorships, theocracies, communist etc etc
 
This type of answer I do not understand the reasoning. The human race has been ****ing and killing each other for as long as we've existed. America is good at going into other countries and killing people in the name of ( fill in the blank ) for many years and yet abortion seems to set the religious rights nerves on end. It makes no sense.
It's all about political posturing and ginning up the base. They want to win elections. I am not sure this is the way to do it. They will surely alienate a subset of conservative women.
 
Priests, morality? Maybe you should read about the history of some of the popes?
I get it. You're anti-church so any moral issue is a failure by the church. Just be aware that is an alt-reality position.

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth concerning religion.
It's the other way around. You are warping everything to your preconceptions.

You say it isn't a religious issue then you say every religion abhors abortion.
Correct.

Religions collect social sensibilities. Abortion and infanticide are practices that society detests but tolerates.

To put it another way, religions reflect society.

I wonder if the old testament abhorred child sacrifice?
In graphic detail.

The church says, means zero to me.
On the contrary. You are clearly obsessed.

I think some of the folks who think it's a moral issue, should check their own morals.
You did not exclude anyone, so why not say everyone should check their morals?

It's a moral issue because infanticide is a moral issue. When it becomes infanticide is fluid because few accept birth as a rational point of demarkation. It is a practical distinction not a rational one, hence our current laws.
 
I get it. You're anti-church so any moral issue is a failure by the church. Just be aware that is an alt-reality position.


It's the other way around. You are warping everything to your preconceptions.


Correct.

Religions collect social sensibilities. Abortion and infanticide are practices that society detests but tolerates.

To put it another way, religions reflect society.


In graphic detail.


On the contrary. You are clearly obsessed.


You did not exclude anyone, so why not say everyone should check their morals?

It's a moral issue because infanticide is a moral issue. When it becomes infanticide is fluid because few accept birth as a rational point of demarkation. It is a practical distinction not a rational one, hence our current laws.
To sum up all your blah, blah, blah, abortion is legal unless of course you live in a red state whose legislature tends to be authoritative and make it a crime.

The last thing i'm obsessed about is the catholic church and everyone should check their morals.
 
To sum up all your blah, blah, blah, abortion is legal unless of course you live in a red state whose legislature tends to be authoritative and make it a crime.

The last thing i'm obsessed about is the catholic church and everyone should check their morals.
I did not say the Catholic Church. You are generally anti-Christian, vehemently so.

There is a continuum between conception and birth. Somewhere in that continuum, we as a society believe that a fetus ceases to be only tissue and becomes a person, albeit a special type of person. The Catholic Church teaches that the correct point is at conception. Our laws currently hold it to be at birth. Public sentiment lies somewhere in the middle. No religion is involved.
 
I did not say the Catholic Church. You are generally anti-Christian, vehemently so.

There is a continuum between conception and birth. Somewhere in that continuum, we as a society believe that a fetus ceases to be only tissue and becomes a person, albeit a special type of person. The Catholic Church teaches that the correct point is at conception. Our laws currently hold it to be at birth. Public sentiment lies somewhere in the middle. No religion is involved.
I don't care what a person believes but when that person starts shoving their beliefs or pass laws based on their religious beliefs, yeah, I have a real problem with those 'christians'.

Who cares what any church says about abortion, my governor and the governors of other red states trump religion and they decide when you can and can't get an abortion. Public sentiment does not want RvW overturned.
 
I did not say the Catholic Church. You are generally anti-Christian, vehemently so.
He sounds like he is against the decidedly anti-Christian beliefs evangelical Protestants hold against women and their reproductives lives not against Christianity.

moving on .....
There is a continuum between conception and birth. Somewhere in that continuum, we as a society believe that a fetus ceases to be only tissue and becomes a person, albeit a special type of person. The Catholic Church teaches that the correct point is at conception. Our laws currently hold it to be at birth. Public sentiment lies somewhere in the middle. No religion is involved.
We as a society do not believe that a fetus is a person. Evangelical Protestants and Catholics believe that. They constitute about 35% of the population. The rest of us believe a fetus becomes a separate human being, a person with legal rights at birth. US law has codified it. If religion isn't involved why do you keep accusing pro-choice advocates of being anti-Christian?
 
I don't care what a person believes but when that person starts shoving their beliefs or pass laws based on their religious beliefs, yeah, I have a real problem with those 'christians'.
Then you lump all Christians into that group.

Beware of saying that you are only prejudiced against certain things. First, that means you are admitting to prejudice. Second, your definition is a matter of cenvenience.

Who cares what any church says about abortion, my governor and the governors of other red states trump religion and they decide when you can and can't get an abortion. Public sentiment does not want RvW overturned.
That has not been correct is Roe v Wade, as you should know.

He sounds like he is against the decidedly anti-Christian beliefs evangelical Protestants hold against women and their reproductives lives not against Christianity.
Except that they are Catholic, not Protestant. See also the comment on allowing yourself a prejudice.

moving on .....
:coffee:

We as a society do not believe that a fetus is a person.
I said that a majority of people believe that a viable fetus is a person, so let's make sure that is what we are discussing.

Evangelical Protestants and Catholics believe that. They constitute about 35% of the population.
As you say, they are a part of the majority, but they do not account for all of it.

The rest of us believe a fetus becomes a separate human being, a person with legal rights at birth.
Polling does not suggest that this is correct.

At the very least, a majority think that a viable fetus is a person independent of the mother. The issue of rights clouds the matter.

US law has codified it.
Hence the debate to change the law.

If religion isn't involved why do you keep accusing pro-choice advocates of being anti-Christian?
I didn't. I said one specific poster is consistently anti-Christian. I am sure that there are others.
 
So an abortion is worse than what putin is doing in ukraine killing innocent folks? Again, if it is killing or murder as some like to say, why are doctors not charged with the crime of intentional murder?
they should be charged
 
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