The abortion issue, what is it all about?

[Fishking]

A fetus does not have all bodily organs and processes fully developed or functional.

Yes, same with infants, toddlers, and adolescents. You do not have a very good grasp of biology.

It is not even considered an individual person.

That's incorrect. The definition of "person" is philosophical, and there are many that consider unborn humans as an individual person. When a mother grieves over a still birth or miscarriage, they are grieving over their lost baby, not a meaningless clump of cells of no more import than a mole or expelling a tapeworm.

It feeds off the woman's body to sustain itself, while contributing nothing to its "host," and can even in some cases cause harm, impaired health, or even death in more extreme cases, just like a parasite. So the comparison is apt. And since our species has almost 8 billion individuals, we're in no danger of extinction. If anything, our species is overpopulated. So your rant is nothing more than hyperbole.

It actually does do something for the host. Women with kids live longer, so there is that fact. Further, the entire point of of the "host" (read "mother") is to propagate. That's literally what life is all about. If it did not happen there would literally be no life.

 

[Gordy327]

Yes, same with infants, toddlers, and adolescents. You do not have a very good grasp of biology.

That's incorrect. The definition of "person" is philosophical, and there are many that consider unborn humans as an individual person. When a mother grieves over a still birth or miscarriage, they are grieving over their lost baby, not a meaningless clump of cells of no more import than a mole or expelling a tapeworm.

It actually does do something for the host. Women with kids live longer, so there is that fact. Further, the entire point of of the "host" (read "mother") is to propagate. That's literally what life is all about. If it did not happen there would literally be no life.

So according to your understanding, or lack thereof, of biology, a fetus has all the necessary organ functions to be born before viability. It seems your grasp of embryology is lacking.
Personhood is a legal matter and is defined and determined by the 14th Amendment of the Constitution and by 1 US Code ss 8. In summary, the unborn is not considered a person.
Women who give birth might live longer, but that's not guaranteed and more studies need to be conducted before such a claim is conclusive. You also ignore that pregnancy and birth can also potentially kill a woman, not to mention cause other health issues, some of which can become chronic. Like I said, our species is already well propagated. So that point of dying out is moot.

 

[Fishking]

So according to your understanding, or lack thereof, of biology, a fetus has all the necessary organ functions to be born before viability. It seems your grasp of embryology is lacking.

Nope. You created a strawman of my statement. I didn't say anything about viability and neither did your previous statements. So this isn't about my grasp on embryology but about your inability to read for comprehension...or dishonesty. I never rule out dishonesty.

Personhood is a legal matter and is defined and determined by the 14th Amendment of the Constitution and by 1 US Code ss 8. In summary, the unborn is not considered a person.

Personhood isn't a legal matter at all. The law does have laws regarding personhood status but it is not particularly a valid premise on which to build a moral argument, or even a logical one. At one point, Black Americans, by law, where considered 3/5ths of a person.

Answer this question: Do you believe Black people were ever actually less of a person?

^---I predict you will not answer this or leave out what "actually" means in the question.

Women who give birth might live longer, but that's not guaranteed and more studies need to be conducted before such a claim is conclusive.

A silly statement that doesn't negate my point. There are no guarantees but women who have kids do live longer. That's what the data shows us. And, no, no more studies are needed. It's been known for a while.

You also ignore that pregnancy and birth can also potentially kill a woman, not to mention cause other health issues, some of which can become chronic.

I never ignored this.

Like I said, our species is already well propagated. So that point of dying out is moot.

It's not moot at all. It's 100% refutes your idiotic claim of parasitism.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Personhood isn't a legal matter at all. The law does have laws regarding personhood status but it is not particularly a valid premise on which to build a moral argument, or even a logical one. At one point, Black Americans, by law, where considered 3/5ths of a person.

No, SLAVES were considered 3/5 person SOLELY for the purpose of the census and political representation. Free blacks had full personhood.

A silly statement that doesn't negate my point. There are no guarantees but women who have kids do live longer. That's what the data shows us.

Women who don't marry tend to live longer as well. Perhaps more of us should be single mothers, eh?

 

[Fishking]

No, SLAVES were considered 3/5 person SOLELY for the purpose of the census and political representation. Free blacks had full personhood.

And slaves were less, as they were property. Stop running. Were they actually 3/5ths of a person or property or were they actually full people, like everyone else?

Women who don't marry tend to live longer as well. Perhaps more of us should be single mothers, eh?

Wrong again.

Life expectancy and active life expectancy by marital status among older U.S. adults: Results from the U.S. Medicare Health Outcome Survey (HOS)

Previous investigations of the relationship between marital status and life expectancy and healthy life expectancy rely on the assumption that participants will remain in a given marital status until death. This study estimated total life expectancy (TLE) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Caring for Parents, Keeping Them Healthy

WebMD offers tips for taking care of your aging parents, from helping with doctor visits to helping them eat well.

www.webmd.com

 

[Parrish]

Your 11-year-old daughter is raped. What do you do?

 

[Gordy327]

Nope. You created a strawman of my statement. I didn't say anything about viability and neither did your previous statements. So this isn't about my grasp on embryology but about your inability to read for comprehension...or dishonesty. I never rule out dishonesty.

You're the one who brought up toddlers, infants, and adolescents. They have nothing to do with the issue. They are already born individuals with fully functioning organ systems without the need for internal maternal support.

Personhood isn't a legal matter at all. The law does have laws regarding personhood status but it is not particularly a valid premise on which to build a moral argument, or even a logical one. At one point, Black Americans, by law, where considered 3/5ths of a person.

Personhood is quite obviously a legal matter and one which some states have tried to legislate. Even 1 US Code ss 8 discusses it:

(a)In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b)As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

(c)Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

Answer this question: Do you believe Black people were ever actually less of a person?

^---I predict you will not answer this or leave out what "actually" means in the question.

Strawman argument and loaded question. That was a political move to ensure ratification of the Constitution.

A silly statement that doesn't negate my point.

And yet, you keep making silly statements.

There are no guarantees but women who have kids do live longer. That's what the data shows us. And, no, no more studies are needed. It's been known for a while.
I never ignored this.
It's not moot at all. It's 100% refutes your idiotic claim of parasitism.

Is the potential to live a longer life for the woman relevant to whether she chooses abortion or not? There are plenty of known dangers to pregnancy and childbirth.

 

[Fishking]

You're the one who brought up toddlers, infants, and adolescents. They have nothing to do with the issue. They are already born individuals with fully functioning organ systems without the need for internal maternal support.

You're right, I did, because you think that they have fully developed and functioning organs, they don't. For example, infants can't see color until around 4 months. You only recently added viability to the discussion because your initial statements were wrong.

Personhood is quite obviously a legal matter and one which some states have tried to legislate. Even 1 US Code ss 8 discusses it:

Personhood status is a philosophical matter and that is what the law is premised on. The law didn't just shit it out on it's own and what it has defined as a person has been changed throughout history and around the world.

Strawman argument and loaded question. That was a political move to ensure ratification of the Constitution.

Obviously you don't know what a strawman argument is. I didn't misrepresent your position at all. I merely brought up an example showing that using the law as your moral compass for what a person is or isn't has a terrible history. So are you going keep dodging the question or are you going to answer it? I mean, we all know what your answer is but you trying to squirm your way out of it is interesting.

Do you think that Black people were ever actually less of a person because the law said they were?

And yet, you keep making silly statements.

I didn't know providing data proving your wrong was considered silly. Weird. I keep giving actual data and information proving you wrong, time and again, and you give nothing at all.

Is the potential to live a longer life for the woman relevant to whether she chooses abortion or not? There are plenty of known dangers to pregnancy and childbirth.

An actual good question. No, that's not relevant. I only made that point to highlight the health benefits and to negate the claims of parasitism.

 

[TypicalRussian]

I don't need a piece of paper giving me permission to ****.

well waiting for marriage has benefits

 

[TypicalRussian]

My cousin's wife was in the 3rd trimester of a very planned and wanted pregnancy.

In that 3rd trimester the cord got wrapped around the neck of the fetus and it strangled.

She had to have a late term abortion to save her own life. If she had been forced to keep that dead fetus inside her she would have died from para tinnitus.

She and my cousin have been married since the early 80s. She had to have that abortion in the 90s.

Married women get abortions.

Study Finds Married Women Have More Abortions Than Anyone Else - The Frisky

In popular imagination, women who get abortions are young, single, and promiscuous, hopping carelessly between one-night stands. I’m not one to look down upon women pursuing whatever lifestyle they find pleasing

thefrisky.com

so what?

 

[Gordy327]

You're right, I did, because you think that they have fully developed and functioning organs, they don't. For example, infants can't see color until around 4 months. You only recently added viability to the discussion because your initial statements were wrong.

I never said they did. I specifically said the unborn does not have fully developed organ function in my post 425. So your statement is a flat out lie!

Personhood status is a philosophical matter and that is what the law is premised on. The law didn't just shit it out on it's own and what it has defined as a person has been changed throughout history and around the world.

The law is what is applicable and it clearly states the unborn are not persons.

Obviously you don't know what a strawman argument is. I didn't misrepresent your position at all.
I merely brought up an example showing that using the law as your moral compass for what a person is or isn't has a terrible history. So are you going keep dodging the question or are you going to answer it? I mean, we all know what your answer is but you trying to squirm your way out of it is interesting.

Your question is irrelevant to the issue. Get back to me when the topic of black personhood comes up.

 

[Fishking]

I never said they did. I specifically said the unborn does not have fully developed organ function in my post 425. So your statement is a flat out lie!

I know what you said, and I didn't lie about it one bit, which is why you didn't point out the specific lie and just whined about it. You initially talked about fully developed and functioning organs and did NOT say anything about viability at first. I simply pointed out that infants, toddlers, adolescents, ect also don't have fully developed and functioning organs, and backed it up with an example. Your ignorance was demonstrated and now you're throwing a fit.

The law is what is applicable and it clearly states the unborn are not persons.

This is also factually incorrect. The Unborn Victims of Violence act can get you charged with double homicide/murder. By law, homicide and murder are both defined as killing a person. It also bears repeating that more is applicable than just what the law says, seeing as how laws don't have a particularly amazing history of being a solid premise for moral code.

Your question is irrelevant to the issue. Get back to me when the topic of black personhood comes up.

More cowardice. Just admit you lost this one and move on.