The 2016 Presidential Primary, Conventions, Election, and Aftermath

[AlbqOwl]

A suggested all-purpose campaign, convention, and election thread so we know where to go to discuss developing events.

The 2016 PRESIDENTAL CAMPAIGN, ELECTION, and AFTERMATH

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So what are your thoughts so far on this election season? Hopeful? Doubtful? Anxious? Angry? Amused? Keeping it reasonably rational and civil will be much appreciated though we are surely going to disagree on people, issues, processes, and outcomes and that is okay.

 

[cpwill]

It depends who the GOP nom is. I'm #NeverTrump, so if it's him, I'll be headed Third Party.

 

[brothern]

Democrat this time around. I voted for McCain and Romney the last two elections.

I'm undecided about the IL Senate. Sen. Kirk is a great moderate candidate, however the Republican Party has been dreadful and has been completely disinterested in governing. They've been do-nothing obstacles and I don't want them to have agenda setting powers again.

 

[clownboy]

It depends who the GOP nom is. I'm #NeverTrump, so if it's him, I'll be headed Third Party.

You're headed for a third party vote. Who got the new suit and is running this time around? :lamo

I'm voting Trump.

 

[AlbqOwl]

In this weirdest election season I have experienced in my ever increasing lifetime, I honestly don't have any confidence in what is going to happen.

So our choices are at this time:
Hillary Clinton with the highest negatives of any person who has ever run on the Democratic ticket.
Bernie Sanders, an admitted socialist who is giving Hillary serious competition that nobody saw coming.
Donald Trump with the highest negatives of any person who has ever run on the Republican ticket and who is no ideologue or loyal to any party.
Ted Cruz, the ideological purist.
John Kasich, the all around good guy Republican establishment candidate that everybody likes but few seem to want.
Or a candidates of one of the other parties that get little or no publicity of any kind.

My impression at this time is that few Democrats are all that enthusiastic about Hillary but she's the reigning Democrat so she has to be their choice. But will Sanders supporters support her when she is the nominee?

My impression at this time is that few Republicans have any certainty about what they would get in a President Trump, but he has generated interest and perhaps enthusiasm as I have not seen for a very long time.

My impression at this time is that many Republicans say they are convinced that if Trump is the GOP nominee that he ensures a Clinton victory, most of those are supporting Cruz, but based on turnout at rallies, etc., neither Cruz or Kasich are generating a great deal of enthusiasm. Trump is.

And so far John Kasich is the only Republican polling that he would beat Hillary in a general election matchup. But my common sense tells me, really? The guy who has one only one state and at well under 50% of the vote in that, and who hasn't even gotten close anywhere else? He's the one who would beat Hillary?

This is giving silly season a whole new context.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Democrat this time around. I voted for McCain and Romney the last two elections.

I'm undecided about the IL Senate. Sen. Kirk is a great moderate candidate, however the Republican Party has been dreadful and has been completely disinterested in governing. They've been do-nothing obstacles and I don't want them to have agenda setting powers again.

You like the Democrat agenda better? Does it make any difference to you that the GOP establishments fears Trump even more than the Democrats do?

 

[AlbqOwl]

It depends who the GOP nom is. I'm #NeverTrump, so if it's him, I'll be headed Third Party.

Which many if not most would say is a vote for Hillary. How do you rebut that point of view?

 

[cpwill]

Which many if not most would say is a vote for Hillary. How do you rebut that point of view?

Two points:

1. It is theoretically incorrect. My vote does not belong to the GOP - the Republican Party does not own me. I am no more taking anything from them if they do not earn my vote than the government is giving me money by not taxing 100% of my income.

2. It is also mathematically incorrect. Shifting my vote from Trump to Hillary has a twofer effect: -1 for Trump and +1 for Hillary. If Trump had ever had my vote (and he never did), then shifting it to Johnson, or a write-in Candidate is a -1 to Trump, but not a +1 to Hillary. So even if you were willing to state that a political party had a right to presume my vote (which they do not - as a citizen, it is their job to earn my vote, not my job to convince them to have someone I like at the top of their ticket), then the loss to a third party does not count as a "vote for Hillary", but simply as a "lost vote". Mathematically, it makes no more sense than claiming that those who don't vote at all are "voting for Hillary" or "voting for Trump".

 

[Lovebug]

Depends on nominee.
If Sanders v Trump....D
If Kasich v Clinton...may be R
If Trump v Clinton...3rd, 4th, 5th or Mickey Mouse. If either of the two wins, I shall get drunk. Anyone with me? The question is, how do I stay drunk for 4 years. Perhaps I should move to CO?

 

[AlbqOwl]

You're headed for a third party vote. Who got the new suit and is running this time around? :lamo

I'm voting Trump.

I resisted that for the longest time, but like many others, my favorites didn't make the cut. I have been a longtime fan of John Kasich since the 1990's and saw him as a rising star and presidential material, but he was just too establishment for this anti-establishment election season. And in truth, he would almost certainly be the one most likely to maintain the status quo and not effect serious reforms. I was in the Ted Cruz camp until he began exhibiting some character traits that were very off putting to me, and since he seems to be popular neither with the people or his colleagues in Washington, I now question how effective he would be.

And there is just enough curiosity, and I suppose hope, in me to see a Donald Trump presidency as an interesting, fascinating, and possibly amazing prospect. Or he could be terrible. But as bad as he might be, I can't see that he could be anywhere near as bad as I think Hillary will be.

So. . .if I had to vote today--our primary isn't until June when we will vote with California--I think--I'm not sure, but I think I would probably vote for Trump.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Depends on nominee.
If Sanders v Trump....D
If Kasich v Clinton...may be R
If Trump v Clinton...3rd, 4th, 5th or Mickey Mouse. If either of the two wins, I shall get drunk. Anyone with me? The question is, how do I stay drunk for 4 years. Perhaps I should move to CO?

I remember the election year in which Jesse Jackson and Pat Robertson were both running for President and both made great showings in Iowa and New Hampshire. My husband and I looked at each other and said omg, what do we do if those two are the nominees? Blessedly for the country we didn't have to find out.

But I agree a Trump v Clinton election is a real dilemma for folks. And as it likely could come down to that, I hope people will swallow hard, back up and really make a choice of which of those two is the most likely to make a positive difference. For me it is a no brainer. But everybody has to decide for themselves.

 

[Helix]

The choices really suck for this election cycle. Like worse than usual.

 

[Dittohead not!]

If I had my way, we'd dump the results of the primaries held so far, and start over. We'd have a primary election sometime in October, all states voting at the same time, and allow only a couple of weeks, a month on the outside, for campaigning before the general. If I had my way, none of the current candidates would be even in the running.

Unfortunately, I don't always get my way.

I still think Hillary is the lesser of the evils, and Trump the greatest, but that's just me.

I'll probably vote Libertarian once again in the general. I consider that a protest vote.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Two points:

1. It is theoretically incorrect. My vote does not belong to the GOP - the Republican Party does not own me. I am no more taking anything from them if they do not earn my vote than the government is giving me money by not taxing 100% of my income.

2. It is also mathematically incorrect. Shifting my vote from Trump to Hillary has a twofer effect: -1 for Trump and +1 for Hillary. If Trump had ever had my vote (and he never did), then shifting it to Johnson, or a write-in Candidate is a -1 to Trump, but not a +1 to Hillary. So even if you were willing to state that a political party had a right to presume my vote (which they do not - as a citizen, it is their job to earn my vote, not my job to convince them to have someone I like at the top of their ticket), then the loss to a third party does not count as a "vote for Hillary", but simply as a "lost vote". Mathematically, it makes no more sense than claiming that those who don't vote at all are "voting for Hillary" or "voting for Trump".

Of course you are right with the math. But in reality, when there is choice between two people, one of which will be President, refusing to support either means that the one who should be elected will have one less vote. It isn't a matter of who owns you or your vote. Nobody owns me or my vote either.

Say the choice is between A, the less than optimum but better choice, vs B the worse choice. Those who just can't appreciate A enough to vote for him/her but who simply will not vote for B choose instead to vote for C or they don't vote at all. If enough do that, then B will win by default.

 

[Lovebug]

Of course you are right with the math. But in reality, when there is choice between two people, one of which will be President, refusing to support either means that the one who should be elected will have one less vote. It isn't a matter of who owns you or your vote. Nobody owns me or my vote either.

Say the choice is between A, the less than optimum but better choice, vs B the worse choice. Those who just can't appreciate A enough to vote for him/her but who simply will not vote for B choose instead to vote for C or they don't vote at all. If enough do that, then B will win by default.

That is exactly what A and B are counting on. Pretty sad for a country this size.

 

[clownboy]

Well, again, I originally wanted Trump vs Sanders and let the voters decide the course of our nation's future. But now we have Trump vs the same old same old crooked lying politician.

 

[Lovebug]

Well, again, I originally wanted Trump vs Sanders and let the voters decide the course of our nation's future. But now we have Trump vs the same old same old crooked lying politician.

I wish it were possible for Bernie to run as I.
What would happen if enough of us would write him in?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Well, again, I originally wanted Trump vs Sanders and let the voters decide the course of our nation's future. But now we have Trump vs the same old same old crooked lying politician.

A con man v. a crook. What a choice. Well, we've survived crooks before. I'm not sure we could survive a con man.

 

[clownboy]

I wish it were possible for Bernie to run as I.
What would happen if enough of us would write him in?

The primary isn't done for the dems yet. Convince your superdelegates to vote Bernie instead of Hillary and the race for the nom is very close.

 

[Lovebug]

The primary isn't done for the dems yet. Convince your superdelegates to vote Bernie instead of Hillary and the race for the nom is very close.

Yeah, wishful thinking.
What about Trump? What if enough write him in? What if he decides to run 3rd...depending on the GOPs next move?
I am just trying to play devil's advocate.

 

[AlbqOwl]

That is exactly what A and B are counting on. Pretty sad for a country this size.

It is what happens in a Democratic Republic. Maybe we need a different system to choose the President, but in this election, it is what it is. So I hope everybody will search their conscience and hold their nose if they have to but vote for the person who is most likely to make a positive difference or at least do less damage.

I honestly don't see how anybody who believes the last eight years have not been great for America could double down on that with a vote for Hillary. And I hope they don't choose to spend their vote in a way that will help her. I'm sure many will disagree with me on that.

 

[AlbqOwl]

A con man v. a crook. What a choice. Well, we've survived crooks before. I'm not sure we could survive a con man.

And I don't see either as a con man or a crook.

 

[Fiddytree]

Disappointed.

The GOP had a massively talented bench, a number of candidates who could propose meaningful reforms that would address underlying issues for the middle class and to some extent for those in the working class. But the voters rejected experience, calm temperament and instead took pride in inexperience, anti-intellectualism, and rage.

I wasn't in the slightest expecting that I would be voting for the Democratic nominee, but unless a miracle happens that defeats both Trump and Cruz, I am voting for the Democrat. I will likely end up voting for Hillary.

I don't have to hold my nose while doing so. The stench is so strong from Trump and Cruz alike, that even the minor stench from Hillary smells like relief.

 

[azgreg]

The choices really suck for this election cycle. Like worse than usual.

Hard to believe isn't it?

 

[cpwill]

Of course you are right with the math. But in reality, when there is choice between two people, one of which will be President, refusing to support either means that the one who should be elected will have one less vote. It isn't a matter of who owns you or your vote. Nobody owns me or my vote either.

Say the choice is between A, the less than optimum but better choice, vs B the worse choice. Those who just can't appreciate A enough to vote for him/her but who simply will not vote for B choose instead to vote for C or they don't vote at all. If enough do that, then B will win by default.

:shrug: it's not an A/B test, however. It's multiple-choice, with fill-in and opt-out options. I can vote (or not) for whomever I like, nor am I obligated (morally or otherwise) to vote for either particular party. Since Trump has no claim to my vote, not voting for him is no more a vote for Hillary than the government letting me keep some of my income is the same as them giving it to me.