Texas mom challenges transgender widow's marriage

[Renae]

Legally she can be called a woman but if you are born with a penis you are a transgendered female. You just cannot completely ignore that fact. It is ridiculous that she didn't share such a really important detail with the one she married. We marry people to share our burdens. I think he had a right to know. She perpetrated a fraud pure and simple. If it can be proved that he left her after finding out about it I don't think she should get the money.

Uhm, I highly doubt that her gender was a secret for that long, and Mom seems like the sort if she learned of it she would have told the world to embarass her son.

Greedy bigoted mother should lose this case, end of story.


Also, if a male transitions to female, she should then be treated in all respects as a woman. Once you undergo Gender Re-assignment Surgery you are effectively as female as modern medicine can allow. My wife and I have this argument, in her mind a post-op MTF is a gay man with a dick. We go back and forth on this from time to time when she watches one of those Transwomen shows on like TLC or Discovery.

 

[Your Star]

Uhm, I highly doubt that her gender was a secret for that long, and Mom seems like the sort if she learned of it she would have told the world to embarass her son.

Greedy bigoted mother should lose this case, end of story.


Also, if a male transitions to female, she should then be treated in all respects as a woman. Once you undergo Gender Re-assignment Surgery you are effectively as female as modern medicine can allow. My wife and I have this argument, in her mind a post-op MTF is a gay man with a dick. We go back and forth on this from time to time when she watches one of those Transwomen shows on like TLC or Discovery.

To be honest, when I opened this thread I did not expect this kind of response. Never knew you would be liberal on trans issues. Kudos Mr.V, kudos.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

To be honest, when I opened this thread I did not expect this kind of response. Never knew you would be liberal on trans issues. Kudos Mr.V, kudos.

You would be very surprised by MrV's position on issues such as this. Where he stands on this does not surprise me at all.

 

[Renae]

To be honest, when I opened this thread I did not expect this kind of response. Never knew you would be liberal on trans issues. Kudos Mr.V, kudos.

If you dig around, you'll find I am 110% in favor of Transgender Rights, I have given money to Transgender shelter and stand up for them at every turn. Well, every turn that also co-incides with my other beliefs

This happens to be one of them.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

If you dig around, you'll find I am 110% in favor of Transgender Rights, I have given money to Transgender shelter and stand up for them at every turn. Well, every turn that also co-incides with my other beliefs

This happens to be one of them.

I knew this from a year or so ago. I have done a lot of research on transgendered issues, both because it interests me and because I treat folks who have this. There is a ton of confusion on transgenderism and how to deal with it, whether it is a disorder or not, and whether SRS is appropriate... and when it is appropriate if it is.

 

[Renae]

I knew this from a year or so ago. I have done a lot of research on transgendered issues, both because it interests me and because I treat folks who have this. There is a ton of confusion on transgenderism and how to deal with it, whether it is a disorder or not, and whether SRS is appropriate... and when it is appropriate if it is.

Half the problem lies with the treatment IMHO, too many cheerleaders that think anyone with a smidgeon of TG issues should go get GRS. It IS a disorder, let's be honest you don't just wake up and decide you want to sit to pee for the rest of your life (or vice versa). However, far too many people think it's some sort of sicko thing, it's not. These folks have a real problem, and hating them for who they are is IMHO evil.

You are free to hate those that throw it in your face at every turn and are SUPER annoying about "I'm a GIRL NOW". Make me gag.

You should watch "Transtasia" it's a good documentary.

 

[digsbe]

Transgendered people should never be legally recognizes as the gender they have changed to. If gay marriage is illegal in Texas, then the marriage should be void.

 

[Renae]

Transgendered people should never be legally recognizes as the gender they have changed to. If gay marriage is illegal in Texas, then the marriage should be void.

Why shouldn't they? The process to change genders isn't an easy one. It's a year long (more like two to be honest) trial that changes their bodies, their lives in ways you cannot begin to imagine. And you don't want them recognized for what reason again?

 

[digsbe]

Why shouldn't they? The process to change genders isn't an easy one. It's a year long (more like two to be honest) trial that changes their bodies, their lives in ways you cannot begin to imagine. And you don't want them recognized for what reason again?

Have they truly changed gender? All they have done is mutilated their genitals. A transvestite man to woman will always have a Y chromosome, no uterus, and be infertile. Aesthetically they may appear "female" but they really aren't.

 

[Renae]

Have they truly changed gender? All they have done is mutilated their genitals. A transvestite man to woman will always have a Y chromosome, no uterus, and be infertile. Aesthetically they may appear "female" but they really aren't.

So a woman that had her Uterus removed is no longer really a woman?

It's not a "transvestite man" Transvestites cross dress for sexual gratification. Cross Dressers just enjoy wearing clothes of the opposite gender. Transgendered falls under two basic catagories: Pre-Op, where they have taken hormones for secondary sex characteristics (breasts or hairy chests) but retain their birth gender. Post-Op have proven to not one but at least TWO clinical therapist they are mentally ready to be the opposite gender and undergo GRS.

Before you spout hate, understand what you speak of.

 

[digsbe]

So a woman that had her Uterus removed is no longer really a woman?

She is still a woman. Her DNA is still female, and she was born a woman.

It's not a "transvestite man" Transvestites cross dress for sexual gratification. Cross Dressers just enjoy wearing clothes of the opposite gender. Transgendered falls under two basic catagories: Pre-Op, where they have taken hormones for secondary sex characteristics (breasts or hairy chests) but retain their birth gender. Post-Op have proven to not one but at least TWO clinical therapist they are mentally ready to be the opposite gender and undergo GRS.

Thanks for the info. What kind of Transgendered person was the dead man's "wife"? Would you say a man could be a woman if he still has his penis but has breasts?

Before you spout hate, understand what you speak of.

What hateful comment did I state?

 

[Your Star]

digsbe- When you realize that chromosomes aren't everything in determining sex, or gender then I think you'll understand it more. There are XY cis females, and XXY cis males. Also sex, and gender are two completely different things. You have a say in gender, not so much with your sex. We don't get a choice in how were born, but we do get a choice in how we live. Also not every trans person gets "the surgery", for various reasons, but mostly due to the cost, it's an expensive surgery that unless you have a great insurance company has to come out of your pocket. I was talking to my trans friend recently, and she is planning on getting the surgery next year, and it cost about 17 grand. And thats not including travel, and the proper time off to heal. Luckily her parents are cutting her a deal, and paying for half of it. They want her to earn it, but they don't want her to wait forever either.

Oh, and regarding FTM trans people they are more likely to not get surgery, because well the FTM surgery isn't as good as the MTF version. It's much harder to extend the vagina then to reverse the penis. It's doesn't have the same functionality, and many FTM can't orgasm after the surgery. But I remember reading a piece about how stem cell research, and about how they are being able to grow organs using them, and it could be a breakthrough with not only transplant cases, but also trans surgery, not only for FTM, but for trans people to be able to reproduce without having to store sperm, or eggs.

Also I find it strange that the defining thing for a trans person is "the surgery", while yes it's a big deal, but it's more of the period on a sentence than the whole sentence itself. I remember when my trans friend went full-time, (as in living as her proper gender 24/7) it was a huge deal for her, and her deemer changed dramatically, and says that it was the most important day in her life. She says that the surgery is just going to be the final step, and that while it will be great, it won't change her day to day life as going full-time did.

 

[Renae]

digsbe- When you realize that chromosomes aren't everything in determining sex, or gender then I think you'll understand it more. There are XY cis females, and XXY cis males. Also sex, and gender are two completely different things. You have a say in gender, not so much with your sex. We don't get a choice in how were born, but we do get a choice in how we live. Also not every trans person gets "the surgery", for various reasons, but mostly due to the cost, it's an expensive surgery that unless you have a great insurance company has to come out of your pocket. I was talking to my trans friend recently, and she is planning on getting the surgery next year, and it cost about 17 grand. And thats not including travel, and the proper time off to heal. Luckily her parents are cutting her a deal, and paying for half of it. They want her to earn it, but they don't want her to wait forever either.

Oh, and regarding FTM trans people they are more likely to not get surgery, because well the FTM surgery isn't as good as the MTF version. It's much harder to extend the vagina then to reverse the penis. It's doesn't have the same functionality, and many FTM can't orgasm after the surgery. But I remember reading a piece about how stem cell research, and about how they are being able to grow organs using them, and it could be a breakthrough with not only transplant cases, but also trans surgery, not only for FTM, but for trans people to be able to reproduce without having to store sperm, or eggs.

Also I find it strange that the defining thing for a trans person is "the surgery", while yes it's a big deal, but it's more of the period on a sentence than the whole sentence itself. I remember when my trans friend went full-time, (as in living as her proper gender 24/7) it was a huge deal for her, and her deemer changed dramatically, and says that it was the most important day in her life. She says that the surgery is just going to be the final step, and that while it will be great, it won't change her day to day life as going full-time did.

For "legal reasons" I believe that Post-Op carries more... validity? I suppose that's a good term. If your wife has a penis, and no intention of going through with GRS that's just... a bit gay? I know, listen to me say that, but I'm trying to be practical here about the issue.

I know some trans fear the possible failures that DO occur with GRS, it's not a garuntee, you do it and suddenly find you have a numb hole between your legs (or in some cases not even much of a hole, and yes I'm being crude but too bad) and that isn't a good deal eh?

Some cannot afford it, and some don't see the need.

But if you want to boil it down, if you have the HRT, and are living full time as the opposite gender... I think that in the end is far more important then the actual state of your private parts. I do however, and will always, give more weight to one that has gone the full way rather then one that doesn't.

The ones that piss me off are like that "Pregnant man". Idiot. You remember that story about the FTM that kept all his girl parts in tact, just took Testosterone to look male then got himself preggers. No, that isn't right at all. I think "he" hurt the Trans community.

 

[Your Star]

For "legal reasons" I believe that Post-Op carries more... validity? I suppose that's a good term. If your wife has a penis, and no intention of going through with GRS that's just... a bit gay? I know, listen to me say that, but I'm trying to be practical here about the issue.

I know some trans fear the possible failures that DO occur with GRS, it's not a garuntee, you do it and suddenly find you have a numb hole between your legs (or in some cases not even much of a hole, and yes I'm being crude but too bad) and that isn't a good deal eh?

Some cannot afford it, and some don't see the need.

But if you want to boil it down, if you have the HRT, and are living full time as the opposite gender... I think that in the end is far more important then the actual state of your private parts. I do however, and will always, give more weight to one that has gone the full way rather then one that doesn't.

The ones that piss me off are like that "Pregnant man". Idiot. You remember that story about the FTM that kept all his girl parts in tact, just took Testosterone to look male then got himself preggers. No, that isn't right at all. I think "he" hurt the Trans community.

I can agree with that. One can always go off of hormones. Though while on hormones, and after sometime(6 months to a year) I think someone should be able to change their gender on all government documents, along with a name change. Because it can be hard to get a job if you look a certain way, but your name is very gender specific. Also I find when people complain about the bathroom situation, I think in their mind it always goes to the "man in a dress" stereotype, but I doubt they know the full extent of how hormones can change a person. If you start young enough sometimes they can drastically change you in as little as 6 months. My friend started hormones in junior year , and by start of senior year the principle let her use all the girl bathrooms, because it was just weird watching her go into the boys room, can't imagine how weird it would be to be a boy in their seeing someone touch up their makeup in the mirror. Also I was scared for her safety.

Oh, and I agree about the pregnant man, from the FTM I've talked with they wouldn't dream of giving birth, they would consider it torture, just another reminder of their GID. Also I think it's irresponsible, if he wanted to have babies with his DNA, he should have frozen his eggs, and gone with a sperm donor, and a surrogate. Testosterone does damage to the uterus, and could have caused those babies to come out with pretty bad birth defects based on the fact that the testosterone was killing her uterus.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Interesting information. One thing, though. I would never authorize any kind of HTH or SRS for a minor. Generally, there are three reasons for this. Firstly, parts of the brain are still developing, including hormonal activity. Until this settles down, any kind of significant hormonal therapy can be dangerous. Secondly, one needs to tease out whether the GID is clearly transsexualism, or is being affected by co-morbid psychological disorders. Because of the impulsivity/emotionality inherent in teems because of brain development, this cannot always be teased out until their early 20's. Finally, the recommendation is ALWAYS to live as a member of the opposite sex for a year before beginning any medical procedures... including HTH. Socially, this could be very difficult in the average high school, creating social and further emotional distress. Best case scenario would be to go off to college during that year... or move. It gives the individual a true sense of living as the other gender, without preconceived perceptions of folks they know.

I'm curious, Your Star, as to how your friend was able to go through this process at such a young age.

 

[Your Star]

Interesting information. One thing, though. I would never authorize any kind of HTH or SRS for a minor. Generally, there are three reasons for this. Firstly, parts of the brain are still developing, including hormonal activity. Until this settles down, any kind of significant hormonal therapy can be dangerous. Secondly, one needs to tease out whether the GID is clearly transsexualism, or is being affected by co-morbid psychological disorders. Because of the impulsivity/emotionality inherent in teems because of brain development, this cannot always be teased out until their early 20's. Finally, the recommendation is ALWAYS to live as a member of the opposite sex for a year before beginning any medical procedures... including HTH. Socially, this could be very difficult in the average high school, creating social and further emotional distress. Best case scenario would be to go off to college during that year... or move. It gives the individual a true sense of living as the other gender, without preconceived perceptions of folks they know.

I'm curious, Your Star, as to how your friend was able to go through this process at such a young age.

I'm not so sure about denying HRT(Hormone replacement therapy) to minors, with parental consent obviously. I agree about SRS though, I don't think a minor should have that surgery. As long as HRT is approved by a therapist, and is administered by an endocrinologist I don't really see the danger. Also I think it is very unreasonable to ask for a trans person to live full time without HRT. Most trans people don't go full time when they start HRT. They wait until HRT takes effect, and that they "pass" as the gender that they want to live as. The standard for receiving HRT is a diagnoses of GID, with 3 months of therapy to come to the conclusion. Though some take longer, and some take a shorter time to reach such conclusion.

About my friend, her parents were very supportive, and gave her all the appropriate information, and support. She went to therapy, and started hormones quickly it seemed. And since she wasn't done with puberty, the hormones started having effects pretty quickly. Now if you looked at her you would never know, it's pretty amazing actually. She actually plays on my all girl hockey team now, thats where I met her, in a co-ed hockey league. Which was about a year before she transitioned.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I'm not so sure about denying HRT(Hormone replacement therapy) to minors, with parental consent obviously. I agree about SRS though, I don't think a minor should have that surgery. As long as HRT is approved by a therapist, and is administered by an endocrinologist I don't really see the danger. Also I think it is very unreasonable to ask for a trans person to live full time without HRT. Most trans people don't go full time when they start HRT. They wait until HRT takes effect, and that they "pass" as the gender that they want to live as. The standard for receiving HRT is a diagnoses of GID, with 3 months of therapy to come to the conclusion. Though some take longer, and some take a shorter time to reach such conclusion.

Although hormones are reversable, I don't recommend any medical intervention until the individual lives as the opposite gender, first. You said it yourself. Living as the opposite gender is the moment of freedom. That is consistent with what I've seen and heard. You are correct about the time frame for the diagnosis of GID to be made, however, after that diagnosis, further therapy is recommended. GID does not always mean transsexualism. Other issues must be teased out first. The therapuetic intervention process can take much longer to determine whether the GID is a manifestation of other issues, or transsexualism.

About my friend, her parents were very supportive, and gave her all the appropriate information, and support. She went to therapy, and started hormones quickly it seemed. And since she wasn't done with puberty, the hormones started having effects pretty quickly. Now if you looked at her you would never know, it's pretty amazing actually. She actually plays on my all girl hockey team now, thats where I met her, in a co-ed hockey league. Which was about a year before she transitioned.

Good to hear your friend's parents were supportive. That is a big problem that I have seen in the case I'm working, and other cases I've heard about.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I can provide a link to the standards for care for transsexuals, but when treating adolescents, because there is far more fluidity in gender identity, body image, and emotionality, treatment of adolescents with GID is a very different and much longer process than with adults. Statistics show that for children diagnosed with GID, only about 10%-20% are transsexual; with adolescents, the number rises to 50%; with adults, it's +90%. I'm sure that there are other who are a bit more liberal on this issue, but I tend to err on the side of caution. I want to be certain that all bases are covered. In general, though, this is somewhat flexible, HTH is not recommended before the age of 16. and almost never before the individual reaches Tanner Stage 2 of development. Surgical interventions are not recommended prior to age 18, and not before living as the opposite gender for 1 year, preferably 2. If it is 2, the second year would be with some type of HTH.

Now, of course these are just guideline. Each situation is variable. However, these are the standards of practice that are outlined for GID. It's an interesting read and necessary for anyone treating one with this issue.

http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf

 

[Your Star]

Although hormones are reversable, I don't recommend any medical intervention until the individual lives as the opposite gender, first. You said it yourself. Living as the opposite gender is the moment of freedom. That is consistent with what I've seen and heard. You are correct about the time frame for the diagnosis of GID to be made, however, after that diagnosis, further therapy is recommended. GID does not always mean transsexualism. Other issues must be teased out first. The therapuetic intervention process can take much longer to determine whether the GID is a manifestation of other issues, or transsexualism.

Yes, but that was a moment of freedom because she passed, and was accepted as a female, asking someone who looks male, to live for a year as a female to be able to receive HRT(and vice versa) is rather harsh, and not practical. They may want to live as a female, or male, but it's not practical. I think therapy is a good enough way to determine transsexuality. Also using that method would not reveal people who weren't actually transgendered people, but deter people who are trans into seeking DIY(Do It Yourself) hormones. Which can be extremely dangerous, there are so many hurdles a ts person has to go through before completing their transition there are many places where one can reexamine one's self, and decide to not go further. That I don't think that it's that big of a risk to let a person go on HRT without going full-time.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Yes, but that was a moment of freedom because she passed, and was accepted as a female, asking someone who looks male, to live for a year as a female to be able to receive HRT(and vice versa) is rather harsh, and not practical. They may want to live as a female, or male, but it's not practical. I think therapy is a good enough way to determine transsexuality. Also using that method would not reveal people who weren't actually transgendered people, but deter people who are trans into seeking DIY(Do It Yourself) hormones. Which can be extremely dangerous, there are so many hurdles a ts person has to go through before completing their transition there are many places where one can reexamine one's self, and decide to not go further. That I don't think that it's that big of a risk to let a person go on HRT without going full-time.

I don't agree, at least not with someone who is not an adult. If we are talking about adolescent psychology, there is far too much fluidity in gender identity... and identity in general to make any rapid determinations. Brain development is not complete, especially the part that manages emotional control. The limbic system, that which manages hormones is also in a far more excited and developing state than an adult's. It is because of this that the therapeutic process is recommended to be more lengthy to make the GID determination; usually at least 6 months for adolescents... and then a longer determination for the identification of transsexiality. The biggest reason to NOT recommend any medical interventions, including HTH is to prevent interactions with the body's fluidity and development. Doing so could negatively affect an accurate determination. Therapeutic interventions can be effective in managing the emotionality around GID prior to medical interventions. Once the GID diagnosis is given, there is quite a bit of work to do before any medical interventions should be done.

Now, this is MY way of operating. I'd imagine that there are others who are less conservative in their interventions. I'm not saying they are wrong. Interestingly enough, the rate of regret for those who have gone through the entire GRS is less than 1%. To me, this is a result of more conservative operations by professionals. Again, just the way I operate. If someone is getting good care, it doesn't matter too much.

 

[Your Star]

Oh, I agree that adolescents should receive more therapy time than adults. It makes sense, and also gives the person, and their parents more time to look at the situation without doing anything drastic. The one thing I don't think should happen is having to live full-time for a year until one is able to get hormones. I think thats too much to ask, though I agree with you on most everything. This is a very big change, and probably the biggest decision that these people will ever have to make, and a conservative timetable for treatment is usually best. Though there are exceptions when the process can be moved up.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Oh, I agree that adolescents should receive more therapy time than adults. It makes sense, and also gives the person, and their parents more time to look at the situation without doing anything drastic. The one thing I don't think should happen is having to live full-time for a year until one is able to get hormones. I think thats too much to ask, though I agree with you on most everything. This is a very big change, and probably the biggest decision that these people will every have to make, and a conservative timetable for treatment is usually best. Though there are exceptions when the process can be moved up.

It's different with adults. With adults, reversible HTH is often given before the real-life-experience. With adolescents, this is not the case nearly as often due to medical issues. There is a whole set of criteria, standards for the process, requirements for the next step... it's all pretty interesting. I give your friend a lot of credit for going through it at such a young age. The procedure is pretty intense.

 

[Johnny]

The wife should keep the cash. Furthermore, the mother should pay the court cost. She's wasting the people's time.

 

[jambalaya]

How do we know she didn't? It is her word against her mother-in-law's word at the moment. Where is the mother's proof that her son didn't know about his wife being born a man? If the mother has proof that her son didn't know his wife is transgendered, then I'd say she has a good case. But she is the one that should have to provide proof that the transgendered wife was committing fraud, not the other way around.

Agreed. The mom definintely needs to prove it. Even though I think the wife was morally responsible to share she was transgender to her husband she probably wasn't legally required to do so.

 

[Your Star]

Well this is some Grade A bull****

A Texas judge has announced that he plans to nullify the marriage of a transgender woman whose firefighter husband died in the line of duty, on the grounds that they had an illegal same-sex marriage. His family is fighting the widow for inheritance, but the case is also a setback for transgender rights in the state.

Judge Decides Transgender Widow's Marriage Was Illegal