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Tesla/Solar City merger

laska

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I like it. If you believe there is a coming paradigm shift to renewable energy and transportation electricfication then Solar City and Tesla are positioned very well in leading this shift.


Customers will be able to go into Tesla stores and purchase an EV and solar roof/battery system to charge the EV and their home. Easy to see customers buying a $35,000 Model 3 and then being sold on say a $35,000 solar roof/battery system to charge their EV and home. All in one easy no hassle stop.

Now imagine customers having an opportunity to sign up for Tesla software that will enable both partners(customer and Tesla) to sell electricity from their home roof solar/battery system back to the grid as well as using their autonomous driving EV as a driverless Uber like taxi service while they are at work, sleeping, etc. The $70,000 investment by the customer then turns into a business that may pay off the initial investment rather quickly giving them years of free car, free fuel for car and energy for house, and additional income that could be pretty substantial, pretty much a 24/hr a day uber driver without having to actually do anything as the car and software does all the work. How much demand for Tesla products will there be then? Musk envisioning a future trillion dollar market cap for Tesla is not far fetched imo. May be conservative.
 
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Some other benefits from merger:

Lower acquisition costs of Solar City through more recognizable and trusted brand name under Tesla, and eliminating retail stores by merging into Tesla stores.


Allow Solar City to receive batteries from the gigafactory at cost.


The timing is pretty good also, as the price of Solar City is down significantly the last year. Both companies already share the bulk of their boards, and founders and CEO are related to Musk.
 
I am not buying anything Tesla says until they a) actually finish the factory and put out the number of batteries they said they would; b) actually sell the new cheaper Tesla at the price they said they would; and c) for the first time in their history, post a profit.

Tesla said they would make money...they NEVER have.

Tesla said many years ago that they would sell a car for $50,000. The closest they came was $70,000.


Their cars are amazing, but too many people believe in Tesla because they want to, not because they should.

Tesla is running out of money. If they do not start making dough eventually, they will go bye bye. They are only still around thanks to market hype that boosted their share price and government low interest loans.


They said when they first launched the Model 3 that it will sell for $35,000 and start being sold at the end of next year.

I will bet you that they will accomplish neither.
 
I am not buying anything Tesla says until they a) actually finish the factory and put out the number of batteries they said they would; b) actually sell the new cheaper Tesla at the price they said they would; and c) for the first time in their history, post a profit.

Tesla said they would make money...they NEVER have.

Tesla said many years ago that they would sell a car for $50,000. The closest they came was $70,000.


Their cars are amazing, but too many people believe in Tesla because they want to, not because they should.

Tesla is running out of money. If they do not start making dough eventually, they will go bye bye. They are only still around thanks to market hype that boosted their share price and government low interest loans.


They said when they first launched the Model 3 that it will sell for $35,000 and start being sold at the end of next year.

I will bet you that they will accomplish neither.

They are ahead of schedule on the gigafactory with grand opening next month, and Panasonic is expected to be creating the car batteries in November, also ahead of schedule. The Model 3 is also much simpler to manufacture then previous cars. It is smaller, no falcon winged doors, nowhere near all the gadgets. I think it is a mistake to compare the previous models and delays with it. Now they may be a little late on their ambitious goals but I bet if they are it will be more like 6 months late and not two or three years.
 
I've got to make a confession. I'm not a big fan of Tesla cars for me personally, I'm more jeep, pickup. Love to have an electric jeep. But I see Musk's vision for the company and love it as an investment. Not that I have any money to invest at this time. But if i did, oh yeah.

Musk wants to re-invent the machine that makes the machine ie reinvent the factory and machinery in it. He thinks he can get like 10X more efficiency. All about first principles.
 
Someone thought of the name Tesla Solar, I like it. I also think selling batteries for the grid and selling parts to other EV manufacturers are two additional revenue stream besides the ones previously mentioned. Here are some pics to help visualize it all: https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipPfzU3iYeEnEfaZk1BoIYlJwEbkgJrYIttqXJRQ

This is just the start. The battery gigafactory, solar cell gigafactory, and EV factory will be scaled across the globe. Beginning likely with China.
 
Let's see... Musk is taking two of his companies that are not making any money, and combining them into one company that won't make any money. I am not seeing the rosy future projected in this thread.
 
Elon Musk just put out his master plan part 2 for Tesla. You guys got much of it three weeks early here:2wave:

"...So, in short, Master Plan, Part Deux is:
Create stunning solar roofs with seamlessly integrated battery storage
Expand the electric vehicle product line to address all major segments
Develop a self-driving capability that is 10X safer than manual via massive fleet learning
Enable your car to make money for you when you aren't using it"
https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux
 
I have to admit that the first thought that came to mind is, 'What? Teslas aren't expensive enough to make a profit?' and this merger is to gain more capital.

Yet there are plenty of skeptics who question whether Tesla will ever be capable of competing with the Toyotas and General Motors of the world -- or get out of the red any time soon. Since its founding in 2003, the company, which went public in 2010, has earned a profit in just one three-month period. In 2014, it lost $294 million on $3.2 billion in revenue.

Some $217 million of that revenue came from the sale to its competitors of zero-emission-vehicle, or ZEV, credits and other pollution allowances.

“You’re talking about a company with no cash flow,” says Matthew Stover, an analyst at Boston-based Susquehanna Financial Group, which in the three months ended on Jan. 31 sold more than half its 1.5 million Tesla shares. “One hundred percent of the value of the shares is associated with some view of the future that has not manifested itself in the past.”

Will Tesla Ever Make Money? - Bloomberg

First, the Model 3. This was Tesla's play for an "affordable" electric car but it appears to be affordable for everyone EXCEPT Tesla.

Tesla loses more than $4,000 on each of its high-end Model S electric sedans; and that model's cost is between $70 and $108k. With margins like that, one has to assume a $35k Model 3 can't be the answer to solving Tesla's red ink.

Tesla's income statement reveals the company is hemorrhaging cash at a robust clip. Furthermore, according to TheStreet Ratings, they have a net profit margin of -26.38 percent and a quick ratio of 0.49, which means they have 49 cents in available cash to pay every $1 of current liabilities.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/03/tesla-stock-is-not-a-buy-no-matter-what-earnings-say-commentary.html

Tesla Won’t Turn Profitable Until 2020
Luxury Electric Car Maker Sees GAAP Earnings When Mass-Market Car In Full Production - WSJ


Tesla won't turn profitable until 2020: Musk - MarketWatch

I can only imagine the vast legal expenses and potential law suite judgements that are going to be incurred by the most recent automated driver collisions.

I welcome alternative energy sources and alternative energy transportation, provided that they are self sufficient in the market place all on their own, and don't rely on government, i.e. tax payer, for life support.
 
I have to admit that the first thought that came to mind is, 'What? Teslas aren't expensive enough to make a profit?' and this merger is to gain more capital.





Tesla Won’t Turn Profitable Until 2020
Luxury Electric Car Maker Sees GAAP Earnings When Mass-Market Car In Full Production - WSJ


Tesla won't turn profitable until 2020: Musk - MarketWatch

I can only imagine the vast legal expenses and potential law suite judgements that are going to be incurred by the most recent automated driver collisions.

I welcome alternative energy sources and alternative energy transportation, provided that they are self sufficient in the market place all on their own, and don't rely on government, i.e. tax payer, for life support.

I believe Tesla has great margins on their products and could easily be profitable if they wanted to stay small, but they are spending large amounts of money in laying the foundations for future growth. For example they are building out supercharger networks, buying suppliers so they can vertically integrate, building a battery gigafactory, and as this is new technology spending a lot on research and development.

The loan Tesla received from the government was paid back way early and the tax payer made a profit, and the tax incentives for EVs are not why people having been buying Tesla's vehicles ie they have been selling to very affluent customers who could care less about the tax incentives, and these incentives will be running out soon and Tesla won't miss a beat as can be seen with almost 400,000 people in two weeks putting $1000 down for a car 1 to 2 yrs away. .
 
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I believe Tesla has great margins on their products and could easily be profitable if they wanted to stay small, but they are spending large amounts of money in laying the foundations for future growth. For example they are building out supercharger networks, buying suppliers so they can vertically integrate, building a battery gigafactory, and as this is new technology spending a lot on research and development.

The loan Tesla received from the government was paid back way early and the tax payer made a profit, and the tax incentives for EVs are not why people having been buying Tesla's vehicles ie they have been selling to very affluent customers who could care less about the tax incentives, and these incentives will be running out soon and Tesla won't miss a beat as can be seen with almost 400,000 people in two weeks putting $1000 down for a car 1 to 2 yrs away. .

The cited articles don't support that. How do you support your position? Or is 'I believe' sufficient for you?

MorningStar has a report on Tesla's public filing. I wish I understood it more to know how to read it. That'd be a solid source of what their financials look like.
 
Hmm. If I were a stock holder, not so sure that I'd be thrilled about a company that could be profitable, but is choosing not to be.

The stock would crash if they weren't in growth mode.
 
The stock would crash if they weren't in growth mode.

I guess that's right. But may yet. This latest development with the autonomous driving crashes, injuries and deaths surely can't be good news for Tesla.
 
I guess that's right. But may yet. This latest development with the autonomous driving crashes, injuries and deaths surely can't be good news for Tesla.

From what I've read the technology already is much safer than not having it and is only going to get better. If no one ever got killed by solely human drivers and/or the technology is not really much safer then yeah it may deeply hurt the technology and Tesla. But I think it's pretty obvious it will be MUCH safer than solely human driving and it's coming. Government regulators know this and are preparing for it. Hundreds of companies know it and are investing millions to be players in it.

As far as Tesla as an investment. If you are like say Richard Branson and believe in 15 years most if not all new cars are going to be electric, and that renewables are going to gain higher and higher share of energy, then Tesla is positioned very well to be a leader to this massive transition. If you believe EV's and renewable will never be but a niche market, than Musk throwing out hints that Tesla will be a trillion dollar company in the future is likely not going to happen. I happen to share Branson and Musk's vision. Obviously my posts in this thread about three weeks prior to public knowledge of Musk's master plan part 2 shows I'm drinking the same kool aid.
 
They are ahead of schedule on the gigafactory with grand opening next month, and Panasonic is expected to be creating the car batteries in November, also ahead of schedule. The Model 3 is also much simpler to manufacture then previous cars. It is smaller, no falcon winged doors, nowhere near all the gadgets. I think it is a mistake to compare the previous models and delays with it. Now they may be a little late on their ambitious goals but I bet if they are it will be more like 6 months late and not two or three years.

You keep making guesses and predictions...I am stating facts.

Fact...except for one three month period, they have NEVER posted a profit...in 13 years!?! And please save the 'they could if they wanted to' talk. If they could post a profit, they already would have. Tesla is TOTALLY dependent on their stock price...that (and the government loans) is the only reason they still exist. And that price would go even higher - much higher - if they posted a profit. Plus, they are going through their cash reserves like crazy. No company CEO in his/her right mind would do that if they did not have to.

Fact...they said seven years ago that they would deliver a car at $50K. They have yet to come close to that.

Fact...(as I stated) the ONLY reasons they still exist is the government loan(s) and the stock price hype. As it is, they sell VERY cool but very expensive cars for the rich/upper middle classes.

Tesla makes great cars...but until they actually deliver a reasonably priced car AND show a profit - to me they are little more then another luxury car maker. I will wager a large sum of money that they will not make their late-2017 start of production date for the new car. And I also bet when/if they do finally sell it...it will cost more then $35K.

You cannot convince me otherwise. I will ONLY believe Tesla will deliver this $35K car AND make a profit when they actually do.

They might. But their track record suggests they won't.

And btw, I love EV's...so I hope they can do it.
 
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You keep making guesses and predictions...I am stating facts.

Fact...except for one three month period, they have NEVER posted a profit...in 13 years!?! And please save the 'they could if they wanted to' talk. If they could post a profit, they already would have. Tesla is TOTALLY dependent on their stock price...that (and the government loans) is the only reason they still exist. And that price would go even higher - much higher - if they posted a profit. Plus, they are going through their cash reserves like crazy. No company CEO in his/her right mind would do that if they did not have to.

Fact...they said seven years ago that they would deliver a car at $50K. They have yet to come close to that.

Fact...(as I stated) the ONLY reasons they still exist is the government loan(s) and the stock price hype. As it is, they sell VERY cool but very expensive cars for the rich/upper middle classes.

Tesla makes great cars...but until they actually deliver a reasonably priced car AND show a profit - to me they are little more then another luxury car maker. I will wager a large sum of money that they will not make their late-2017 start of production date for the new car. And I also bet when/if they do finally sell it...it will cost more then $35K.

You cannot convince me otherwise. I will ONLY believe Tesla will deliver this $35K car AND make a profit when they actually do.

They might. But their track record suggests they won't.

And btw, I love EV's...so I hope they can do it.

I do believe technically Tesla sold the base model s after tax credits for $49,900-Forbes Welcome

In regards to profits, you should read the link in post 12 and the following link: Big Companies without Profits - Amazon, Twitter, Uber and Other Big Names that Don?t Make Money | Fox Business

13 years is a baby in the auto manufacturing world, and Tesla, like companies such as Amazon, has chosen the path of growth. It's not rocket science, but Musk is good at that too.
 
From what I've read the technology already is much safer than not having it and is only going to get better. If no one ever got killed by solely human drivers and/or the technology is not really much safer then yeah it may deeply hurt the technology and Tesla. But I think it's pretty obvious it will be MUCH safer than solely human driving and it's coming. Government regulators know this and are preparing for it. Hundreds of companies know it and are investing millions to be players in it.

This has nothing to do with my observation that its' going to cost Tesla some serious coin to deal with the law suit both in lawyers fees and final settlement, and that these costs, on top of their precarious cash flow position (as reported in my citations), it's going to hurt them.

As far as automated driving being "MUCH safer than solely human driving", that is yet to be seen. At the moment, it's clearly not, given the track record already established. Perhaps in future versions of the systems. But not right now.

As far as Tesla as an investment. If you are like say Richard Branson and believe in 15 years most if not all new cars are going to be electric, and that renewables are going to gain higher and higher share of energy, then Tesla is positioned very well to be a leader to this massive transition. If you believe EV's and renewable will never be but a niche market, than Musk throwing out hints that Tesla will be a trillion dollar company in the future is likely not going to happen. I happen to share Branson and Musk's vision. Obviously my posts in this thread about three weeks prior to public knowledge of Musk's master plan part 2 shows I'm drinking the same kool aid.

Funny, I don't think I mentioned anything about Kool Aide, so I'm rather surprised that you brought that up. To date, you've yet to post anything substantive to backup your wonderful vision, either about the technologies involved, or Tesla's financial situation, so to put it bluntly, nothing but your unsubstantiated opinion. Rainbows and unicorns. So yeah, you probably are slurping up that Kool Aide.

Realistically, at this point, all that one could, and probably should, say is that it may yet happen, or that it may not happen. We'll have to see how this unfolds.
 
I do believe technically Tesla sold the base model s after tax credits for $49,900-Forbes Welcome

In regards to profits, you should read the link in post 12 and the following link: Big Companies without Profits - Amazon, Twitter, Uber and Other Big Names that Don?t Make Money | Fox Business

13 years is a baby in the auto manufacturing world, and Tesla, like companies such as Amazon, has chosen the path of growth. It's not rocket science, but Musk is good at that too.

$50K AFTER tax breaks means nothing to me. They did not say the cars would sell for 50K after taxes...they said it would just sell for $50K (to my knowledge).
Tax breaks on cars are STRICTLY to due with the government, nothing to do with the automaker.

You are obviously one of those with rose colored glasses for this company, no offense. LOTS of people are.

I am not one of them.

I will say again...until they post consistent (heck, even relatively consistent) profits AND sell cars (before taxes) at reasonable prices, this company is just a niche car maker that sells very expensive cars that only the wealthy/near-wealthy can realistically afford. And only still exists due to government loans and stock market hype.

You disagree...fine.

We will see.


We are done here, for now.

Good day.
 
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This has nothing to do with my observation that its' going to cost Tesla some serious coin to deal with the law suit both in lawyers fees and final settlement, and that these costs, on top of their precarious cash flow position (as reported in my citations), it's going to hurt them.

As far as automated driving being "MUCH safer than solely human driving", that is yet to be seen. At the moment, it's clearly not, given the track record already established. Perhaps in future versions of the systems. But not right now.



Funny, I don't think I mentioned anything about Kool Aide, so I'm rather surprised that you brought that up. To date, you've yet to post anything substantive to backup your wonderful vision, either about the technologies involved, or Tesla's financial situation, so to put it bluntly, nothing but your unsubstantiated opinion. Rainbows and unicorns. So yeah, you probably are slurping up that Kool Aide.

Realistically, at this point, all that one could, and probably should, say is that it may yet happen, or that it may not happen. We'll have to see how this unfolds.

Well said, IMO.
 
This has nothing to do with my observation that its' going to cost Tesla some serious coin to deal with the law suit both in lawyers fees and final settlement, and that these costs, on top of their precarious cash flow position (as reported in my citations), it's going to hurt them.

As far as automated driving being "MUCH safer than solely human driving", that is yet to be seen. At the moment, it's clearly not, given the track record already established. Perhaps in future versions of the systems. But not right now.



Funny, I don't think I mentioned anything about Kool Aide, so I'm rather surprised that you brought that up. To date, you've yet to post anything substantive to backup your wonderful vision, either about the technologies involved, or Tesla's financial situation, so to put it bluntly, nothing but your unsubstantiated opinion. Rainbows and unicorns. So yeah, you probably are slurping up that Kool Aide.

Realistically, at this point, all that one could, and probably should, say is that it may yet happen, or that it may not happen. We'll have to see how this unfolds.

You state "At the moment, it's clearly not, given the track record already established". How can you say it is clearly not just because a few accidents have been reported. Unless you have statistics that show a higher rate of accidents per mile driven with Tesla autonomous tech than without it, you cannot state that it is clearly not safer.

Musk's rainbow and unicorns sure do have the history of becoming reality, landing rockets, etc, etc, etc. I don't think anything I've stated, or that Musk has also stated in his master plan part 2 that he released last night, is based on things that are not substantive. His master plan part 1 for Tesla which he came up with at the founding of the company all became reality. What in his plan part 2 which basically is the vision for the company that I started this thread with is not based on something substantive. For example that future Tesla customers will have the ability to pay for themselves plus some as autonomous Uber style ride sharing. Given ride sharing companies exist now, and there are autonomous cars now even if in the beginning stages of technology, how is it not substantive to see that this will likely be reality. I see nothing as way out there in the vision, nothing that I don't expect to be reality in say a 5 yr or so time frame. My kool aid comment has nothing to do with the vision, it has to do with whether a person thinks EVs are going to dominate the future of the auto industry in the next 15 yrs or so. I think it is a very rational and smart observation but if you don't believe it then comments by Musk that Tesla will be a trillion dollar company will seem like drinking the kool aid.
 
I like it. If you believe there is a coming paradigm shift to renewable energy and transportation electricfication then Solar City and Tesla are positioned very well in leading this shift.


Customers will be able to go into Tesla stores and purchase an EV and solar roof/battery system to charge the EV and their home. Easy to see customers buying a $35,000 Model 3 and then being sold on say a $35,000 solar roof/battery system to charge their EV and home. All in one easy no hassle stop.

Now imagine customers having an opportunity to sign up for Tesla software that will enable both partners(customer and Tesla) to sell electricity from their home roof solar/battery system back to the grid as well as using their autonomous driving EV as a driverless Uber like taxi service while they are at work, sleeping, etc. The $70,000 investment by the customer then turns into a business that may pay off the initial investment rather quickly giving them years of free car, free fuel for car and energy for house, and additional income that could be pretty substantial, pretty much a 24/hr a day uber driver without having to actually do anything as the car and software does all the work. How much demand for Tesla products will there be then? Musk envisioning a future trillion dollar market cap for Tesla is not far fetched imo. May be conservative.

..and now imagine the environmental disaster that disposing of the worn out batteries from the electric cars will cause and the current environmental damage being done to make those batteries.

Tesla?s Electric Cars Aren?t as Green as You Might Think | WIRED

Rare metals only exist in tiny quantities and inconvenient places—so you have to move a lot of earth to get just a little bit. In the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, Abraham writes, workers dig eight-foot holes and pour ammonium sulfate into them to dissolve the sandy clay. Then they haul out bags of muck and pass it through several acid baths; what’s left is baked in a kiln, leaving behind the rare earths required by everything from our phones to our Teslas.

At this mine, those rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent—now contaminated with toxic chemicals—is dumped back into the environment.
 
$50K AFTER tax breaks means nothing to me. They did not say the cars would sell for 50K after taxes...they said it would just sell for $50K (to my knowledge).
Tax breaks on cars are STRICTLY to due with the government, nothing to do with the automaker.

You are obviously one of those with rose colored glasses for this company, no offense. LOTS of people are.

I am not one of them.

I will say again...until they post consistent (heck, even relatively consistent) profits AND sell cars (before taxes) at reasonable prices, this company is just a niche car maker that sells very expensive cars that only the wealthy/near-wealthy can realistically afford. And only still exists due to government loans and stock market hype.

You disagree...fine.

We will see.


We are done here, for now.

Good day.

Did they say $50,000 not including tax credits? No. So you see what you want to. The fact is there are people that paid under $50,000 base price for a Tesla. I may have rosy glasses on tesla but i do not use incorrect statistics and false premises in seeing the company. You imply you are fair and balanced on the company but the evidence to me suggests a great bias against the company. what is it? Are you a conservative and think climate changers are nuts and you see Tesla is the poster boy for the movement? The bias is derived from something.
 
You state "At the moment, it's clearly not, given the track record already established". How can you say it is clearly not just because a few accidents have been reported. Unless you have statistics that show a higher rate of accidents per mile driven with Tesla autonomous tech than without it, you cannot state that it is clearly not safer.

If you want to argue that the statistical sample is too small as of yet to make a decent and accurate assessment, I could grant you that.

Musk's rainbow and unicorns sure do have the history of becoming reality, landing rockets, etc, etc, etc. I don't think anything I've stated, or that Musk has also stated in his master plan part 2 that he released last night, is based on things that are not substantive. His master plan part 1 for Tesla which he came up with at the founding of the company all became reality. What in his plan part 2 which basically is the vision for the company that I started this thread with is not based on something substantive. For example that future Tesla customers will have the ability to pay for themselves plus some as autonomous Uber style ride sharing. Given ride sharing companies exist now, and there are autonomous cars now even if in the beginning stages of technology, how is it not substantive to see that this will likely be reality. I see nothing as way out there in the vision, nothing that I don't expect to be reality in say a 5 yr or so time frame. My kool aid comment has nothing to do with the vision, it has to do with whether a person thinks EVs are going to dominate the future of the auto industry in the next 15 yrs or so. I think it is a very rational and smart observation but if you don't believe it then comments by Musk that Tesla will be a trillion dollar company will seem like drinking the kool aid.

OK. Fair enough. I still stand on no one really 'knows'. People are placing their bets on what they think is likely and what they think they can make money on. The cold calculation is called business, and people in business really never let themselves be deluded to the point where you seem to be at about this whole thing.
 
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