Teen who wants to wear anti-gay T-shirt takes battle to court

[Simon W. Moon]

than shouldn't these so called protest days be eliminated
shouldn't Black history month be eliminated

they are discriminatory
and since they have no right to 1st amendment protection....
although i thought all americans were afforded this, so Simons post is a surprise to me

personally, i believe until college, school should stick to the basics

Speech Rights of Public School Students

I have overstated the case

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Students do not, the Court tells us in Tinker vs. Des Moines, "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public. Student speech cases require a balancing of the legitimate educational objectives and need for school discipline of administrators against the First Amendment values served by extending speech rights of students.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In Tinker, perhaps the best known of the Court's student speech cases, the Court found that the First Amendment protected the right of high school students to wear black armbands in a public high school, as a form of protest against the Viet Nam War. The Court ruled that this symbolic speech--"closely akin to pure speech"--could only be prohibited by school administrators if they could show that it would cause a substantial disruption of the school's educational mission.

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Papish considered the decision of the University of Missouri to expel a journalism student who distributed a controversial leaflet (including four-letter words and a cartoon showing the Statue of Liberty being raped) on campus. The Court held the expulsion violated Papish's First Amendment rights.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Bethel and Hazelwood, on the other hand, were victories for school administrators over the First Amendment claims of students. In Bethel, the Court upheld the right of Washington state high school administrators to discipline a student for delivering a campaign speech at a school assembly that was loaded with sexual innuendo. The Court expressed the view that administrators ought to have the discretion to punish student speech that violates school rules and has the tendency to interfere with legitimate educational and disciplinary objectives. In Hazelwood, the Court relied heavily on Bethel to uphold the right of school administrators to censor materials in a student-edited school paper that concerned sensitive subjects such as student pregnancy, or that could be considered an invasion of privacy.[/SIZE][/FONT]
​

 

[Alex]

Judges have already ruled that 1st amendment rights of students in school are next to nil.
What a school or a district says re clothing goes - and that's that.

No, they have not. This is the case that dealt with the armbands used as protest to the Vietnam War:

1969: Tinker v. Des Moines School District states that “Symbolic speech” is akin to "pure speech" (at 742). Students are protected under the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. *Unless it can be proved that ones’ actions “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school” or are “colliding with the rights of others, (at 513) prohibiting the expression of unpopular opinions is not permitted under the Constitution. *Furthermore, allowing the state to suppress the freedom of opinion undermines the Constitution. *As outlined by the court, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression” (at 508).

This case dealt with students using the school newspaper to express opinions that could upset students:

1988: Hazelwood School District v Kuhlmeier rules that only when the activity could be construed as being endorsed by the school, such as a school newspaper or theatrical production, the speech is different than that in Tinker, and a different standard should apply. There is no constitutional protection in these cases.

Although the anti-gay shirt could upset students, it is being expressed by the student themself and not through a school forum. The courts will rule that students have a right to express anti-gay opinions with shirts.

 

[Thelost1]

Day of silence...hmmm.

They tried to get me signed up for that, so I asked what exactly they were protesting. Instead of saying that they were demostrating for gay rights or something similar, the student with the booth told me that they were protesting "Homophobes".

I was struck by the realization that they were being divisive, instead of educational, so I walked away.

Back on topic, though, I support the school because I believe that they have the right to create a "safe atmosphere" so that students can go about learning. if someone came into one of my classes (High School) with a shirt that expressed anti-Jewish sentiment, it would bother the hell out of me, and thus impact my work and learning. I can imagine that it would be the same for Homosexuals.

 

[DeeJayH]

Day of silence...hmmm.

They tried to get me signed up for that, so I asked what exactly they were protesting. Instead of saying that they were demostrating for gay rights or something similar, the student with the booth told me that they were protesting "Homophobes".

I was struck by the realization that they were being divisive, instead of educational, so I walked away.

Back on topic, though, I support the school because I believe that they have the right to create a "safe atmosphere" so that students can go about learning. if someone came into one of my classes (High School) with a shirt that expressed anti-Jewish sentiment, it would bother the hell out of me, and thus impact my work and learning. I can imagine that it would be the same for Homosexuals.

you make some very good points, but it seems, according to this story, she is only looking to wear it once in protest to the gay day

 

[Dr_Patrick]

so when, for example, was a t-shirts saying 'n!ggars suck' deemed illegal?
if the shirt said Kill fags (or kill n!ggars, per my previous example) I could understand, as it is promoting violence but nothing in this article seems to show this is what we are dealing with

I'm not saying that it would be deemed illegal, I'm merely saying that the basis for a school to not allow a person to wear a shirt displaying that would be the same for a shirt that has anti-gay slogans on it. The shirt promotes intolerance to people who are of a different sexual orientation, which is a complete slap in the face of the Day of Silence. How tactless is it to wear a shirt protesting a day that remembers people who are harassed and even killed for being different?

 

[Dr_Patrick]

than shouldn't these so called protest days be eliminated
shouldn't Black history month be eliminated

they are discriminatory
and since they have no right to 1st amendment protection....
although i thought all americans were afforded this, so Simons post is a surprise to me

personally, i believe until college, school should stick to the basics

How exactly are they discriminatory? Black people went through tremendous hardships because of the color of their skin. I could completely understand your argument if all races were viewed as equal throughout history. Should we just forget these things and act like they didn't happen?

 

[doughgirl]

“I am in a particularly good humor today so I will only speak to what you wrote in response to me. Suffice to say I wish we could be this respectful of each other in the abortion threads...Perhaps it is because I actually agree with you on most of this…’

I am pro-life jallman what can I say. I’ll never change my position. I see no gray areas.

talloulou said, “Cause I know nothing about it but would assume from its title that it's probably more about how to live in a straight world while being homosexual and more than likely discusses issues that homosexuals deal with that others don't have to.

In other words if there was a class called "How to be a Woman in the Modern World" we would assume straight off the bat that the class is about women's issues and not about trying to take men who are not women and magically morph them into women.

So is the class really about turning heterosexuals gay or is it about dealing with issues that pertain to homosexuality and living in a more or less straight world?’

Even if it was as you said, we need tax dollars going to a class such as this? And this is exactly why from what I read it was finally cancelled.
And for your information jallman, it’s the University of Michigan not Michigan State.

As for your point talloulou, I gave you a site to read about the class. I see you did not read it..

“It "examine a number of cultural artifacts and activities that seem to play a prominent role in learning how to be gay: Hollywood movies, grand opera, Broadway musicals, and other works of classical and popular music, as well as camp, diva-worship, drag, muscle culture, taste, style, and political activism."

“In learning how to be gay.” I don’t know what does that sound to you? I mean if your gay why do you need a class to “learn” how to be something that you were born. I simply used this class because its an example of something that I thought was a tool that people who wanted to learn how to be gay would take.


“She just can't let this one go…”

I am in a thread that the topic happens to relate to gays. So I’m critized for posting something relating to the topic? And because I did that you and Talloulou say I can't let it go? LMAO :rofl

TheLost1, “I support the school because I believe that they have the right to create a "safe atmosphere" so that students can go about learning. if someone came into one of my classes (High School) with a shirt that expressed anti-Jewish sentiment, it would bother the hell out of me, and thus impact my work and learning. I can imagine that it would be the same for Homosexuals.’

I agree, it would upset me as well if someone wore any t-shirt such as this. And the school does have the responsibility to make it a safe place for ALL students. That goes for the students that might have a problem with “gay day” and all the unfairness about having a day to celebrate this lifestyle. So who is to say that a student wouldn’t be silently enraged and act out in violence.

The school is making a statement, they are taking sides. And isn’t that what separation of church and state and everything that implies is all about. The school should NOT take sides in any issue, whether it be sexual orientation, animal rights, abortion rights etc….But schools do take sides in many areas and they did in this case too.
Everyone as I said deserves to know that they can attend any school and be safe and get a quality education without threats of violence. There should be zero tolerance on this. That is the first job of any school. Without that nothing can be taught. Having this class does not do that, it takes sides in an issue and creates more problems, by showcasing in this case gays.

Its like the school celebrating "hunting day". And your a member of PETA . You want to wear a t-shirt that is anti-hunting and they wont allow you the right.

 

[rivrrat]

I will always be on the side of freedom of speech. Even if that speech is hate speech.

While the school may have the "right" to determine what the kids wear or don't wear, I think censorship in any form is wrong.

 

[talloulou]

As for your point talloulou, I gave you a site to read about the class. I see you did not read it..


“In learning how to be gay.” I don’t know what does that sound to you? I mean if your gay why do you need a class to “learn” how to be something that you were born. I simply used this class because its an example of something that I thought was a tool that people who wanted to learn how to be gay would take.

Actually I did read it and remember specifically at the end a declaration from an official at the school that it was NOT a class that taught how to be gay. Did you read the article?

Its like the school celebrating "hunting day". And your a member of PETA . You want to wear a t-shirt that is anti-hunting and they wont allow you the right.

That's a good point and I somewhat agree school should be a house of learning and not political dispute. That said they do have a responsibility to make certain that no students carry on in an intolerant way towards other students. While I don't believe there is actually a need for the day in question I do believe "intolerance" of any peers by other peers is completely unacceptable and must be nipped in the bud. Furthermore hate speech is easily identified whether it is personalized or generalized. That type of speech is absolutely unacceptable in our public schools which are funded be ALL our tax dollars.

 

[talloulou]

Hmm actually Doughgirl I went back and re-read and I was wrong. It was a state rep who says that at the end and it's apparently said in a somwhat sarcastic manner meaning he doesn't exactly buy it. So I apologize. But I still haven't seen anything to lead me to believe the school is actually using the class as an attempt to convert heteros. I firmly believe that any assertion of that is hysteria.

 

[jallman]

well all i seem to recall is that freedom of speech is limited only by excluding that speech that incites violence
or am i wrong/misinformed

No, you are not misinformed at all. I think the point of contention comes in who determines what speech incites what when a student is under the authority of the school. Do the school officials get to decide as in this case? Does some other authority?

A school is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship or an oligarchy at best.

 

[cherokee]

The bottom line here people is anything the principle considers inappropriate or disruptive can be banned. From shorts that are too short to logos, pictures or saying’s on Tee shirts.
In Jr High we weren’t allowed to wear Tee’s with a picture girls in swim suits, nor was I allowed to wear a shirt that said, “Napalm sticks to Kids” or “Southeast Asian wars games. Second place, thanks to Politicians and Hippies”

 

[Jerry]

first, what happened to freedom of speech
second, I cant believe 'gay day' has been going on for 11 years and i never heard about it. My son is 18, but maybe it was not in his school
third, why is this being pushed by school districts
how many other 'minorities' need a day/week/month to be assimilated into this country
not to mention, the overwhelming majority of kids, atleast the ones I know, are alot more accepting of alternative lifestyles than my generation
why is this even necessary?

Personally, as an Evil Conservative, I would go out of my way and wear something really, really offensive. I mean, I would put some hard core research into what would piss people off the most, and wear that.

An example would be something like "love thy neighbor as you love yourself", "Jesus died for homosexuals to" or "God loves all His children".

Probably the best option would be "Jesus loves you".

 

[Jerry]

Aside from the fact that it is a student-led event, many schools are doing everything they can to educate students about bullying in order to prevent more instances like Columbine.

Columbine had more to do with Ritalin and neglectful parents then bullying, but that's another thread.

 

[Adrian]

Jesus died for homosexuals to.

Well, that certainly would make a statement, just not the one you might have been hoping for.

 

[cherokee]

Personally, as an Evil Conservative, I would go out of my way and wear something really, really offensive. I mean, I would put some hard core research into what would piss people off the most, and wear that.

An example would be something like "love thy neighbor as you love yourself", "Jesus died for homosexuals to" or "God loves all His children".

Probably the best option would be "Jesus loves you".

naw that wont work.

How about "Jesus loves you and cluster bombs too" or "God loves all His ICBM children", “love thy neighbor as often as you can without being caught" ....:mrgreen:

 

[DeeJayH]

micks, dagos wops and other 'barbarians' have managed to assimilate into our country without having a 'sensitivity day'
this reminds me about how soft it seems people are becoming in this cruel world
Life is tough. Suck it up

has the verbage proposed to be worn on the girls shirt been revealed yet, because, depending on what i says, i could support it, or oppose it

Homosexuality is a sin - - - acceptable
Kill all fags ---------------unacceptable

 

[Jerry]

:think:

What is being promoted here is NOT gay day, but a FREEDOM from harassment, bullying, etc, for a minority group. Schools are well-known for promoting such things as cooperation, fair play, sportsmanship, honesty, integrity, respect for others, etc. without any problem from not presenting the opposite views. :think:

For once you and I agree.
The school needs to stop harassing and bullying the minority of students who wish to express their views and let them wear a shirt that objects to gay relationships.

 

[Jerry]

Okay, then the question begs...Is she wearing the shirt out of a need to show solidarity with straight students and a statement that straight students not be harassed? My guess is no.

So her "statement" is nothing more than an undermining of a student sponsored humanitarian event that promotes a general respect and tolerance of everyone in the community. I would say the school has every right to quash such spitefully divisive expression.

The student in question is a part of the community and therefore is entitled to said tolerance.

 

[ARealConservative]

For once you and I agree.
The school needs to stop harassing and bullying the minority of students who wish to express their views and let them wear a shirt that objects to gay relationships.

:rofl

you are evil.

That's a neat trick though - and you seem to have it down to an artform. - Pretend to agree with the premise while using it to validate your own. Brilliant!

 

[talloulou]

micks, dagos wops and other 'barbarians' have managed to assimilate into our country without having a 'sensitivity day'
this reminds me about how soft it seems people are becoming in this cruel world
Life is tough. Suck it up

has the verbage proposed to be worn on the girls shirt been revealed yet, because, depending on what i says, i could support it, or oppose it

Homosexuality is a sin - - - acceptable
Kill all fags ---------------unacceptable

Homosexuality is a sin in my opinion is "not acceptable." It still targets a particular group and places judgement on them. School is not the time or place for christians to be pointing out the so called sins of others. And in any event wearing a shirt that says homosexuality is a sin is very unchristian like in my opinion and probably a "sin" too.

 

[Jerry]

The same reason that students are allowed to wear peace signs or anti-war t-shirts. I forget the name of it but there was already a SCOTUS decision on such a case in regards to political expression in school.
​

We covered this on the other thread about what students can and can not do while under school authority.

I think the ruling you're looking for is Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 US 503 (1969).

 

[cherokee]

micks, dagos wops and other 'barbarians' have managed to assimilate into our country without having a 'sensitivity day'

But what of gay micks, dagos wops and other 'barbarians?
This isnt about ones race.

this reminds me about how soft it seems people are becoming in this cruel world
Life is tough. Suck it up

That I can agree with. Mofo's wake up everyday looking to be offended.

has the verbage proposed to be worn on the girls shirt been revealed yet, because, depending on what i says, i could support it, or oppose it

If I was still in school I know what I would want to read on a girls shirt.
"I dine at the Y" or "I'm Easy"...

Homosexuality is a sin - - - acceptable
Kill all fags ---------------unacceptable

How about this instead. When in school Keep personal belief’s to yourself?

 

[Jerry]

Homosexuality is a sin in my opinion is "not acceptable." It still targets a particular group and places judgement on them. School is not the time or place for christians to be pointing out the so called sins of others. And in any event wearing a shirt that says homosexuality is a sin is very unchristian like in my opinion and probably a "sin" too.

So you would say that the fraze "theft is illegal" targets thieves and places judgment on them?

 

[rivrrat]

The student in question is a part of the community and therefore is entitled to said tolerance.

Agreed. Tolerance goes both ways.