Teen who wants to wear anti-gay T-shirt takes battle to court

[doughgirl]

Jallman said, “Well, the reverse question can be asked: Why is it necessary for this student to plaster her personal beliefs on a t-shirt...I would be interested in seeing what this shirt actually says before making any judgments though.”

Because this student has freedom of speech and expression. Would I wear one? NO. Do I think its a kind thing to do, absolutely not. Do I think it is wrong that “gay day” is even being celebrated in our public schools. Yes. There is no place in our public schools for an organized celebration of such a day for anyone. They say gays are traumatized, well so are fat kids and nerds and we dont have a silent day for them do we?

We should have a day to recognize kind behavior towards everyone and not single one group out. All children regardless of what sex or race or sexual preference should be able to attend schools and feel safe without being treated in inhumane ways by anyone, teachers or students. this should not be tolerated. But you can't make people believe something they do not want to believe. Our schools are trying to brainwash kids into believing its ideals and agenda. I'm talking about the NEA.

You can not silence this student if other things are allowed. As long as the T-shirt does not have profanity on it and it does not incite hatred to a particular person by way of a printed name then it should be allowed, that is if other students have similarly worn T-shirts professing other views.

Dcxlvinoise said, ‘I could see your argument if this weren't a civil rights issue. If homosexuality were proven to be a choice then this wouldn't be an issue because the person wearing the shirt would just be displaying their views on the subject. Think of it this way; it would be like someone wearing a shirt that says "I don't like black people." You can't afford a person displaying homophobic slogans freedom of speech and then not afford it to someone dispaying racist slogans.”

Are you saything that no one can learn to be gay and learn to live the lifestyle of a gay? At the University of Michigan you can take a class for credit on how to be a gay and how to learn the lifestyle.

In fact this is the name of it, " "How to Be Gay: Male Homosexuality and Initiation." 'How to be gay' class draws ire in 3rd term at U. Mich. - September 09, 2003 - Pipe Dream on the Web

Everyone gay because they were born with it? Don't buy it. It can be a learned behavior and lifestyle.

So because we are celebrating gay day, could we also have a day just for heterosexuals and celebrate this as well? We have black month. Could we have a white month? Hell no we couldn’t, and the Gays would have a shi_ fit if we had a heterosexual day. Gee then we would be excluding them wouldn’t we?

“IMHO, the kid does not have the right to dress as he wishes in school. Schools have the right to set dress codes. It's none of the Feds business.”

The schools have to follow the Constitution right? Remember separation of church and state? Could a public school lead kids in prayer? No.
So does the constitution allow anyone to wear anything on a t-shirt?

“No more need for a gay day than there is for black history month.”

I agree, teach the basics and that is it. No special day for ANYTHING.

“It is up to the school to enforce their own dress codes to create a safe and aggression free environment.”

But they still have an obligation to follow the United States Constitution.

 

[Ikari]

It's the school's property, they get to set the rules. I've made the same argument for cities which put Nativity scenes and such out for Christmas. It's up the the community to decide what they want. It would be nice to put other religious symbols, but it isn't a requirement. It's the same here, it would be nice to allow dissent but it's not required.

 

[DeeJayH]

Okay, then the question begs...Is she wearing the shirt out of a need to show solidarity with straight students and a statement that straight students not be harassed? My guess is no.

So her "statement" is nothing more than an undermining of a student sponsored humanitarian event that promotes a general respect and tolerance of everyone in the community. I would say the school has every right to quash such spitefully divisive expression.

I would argue that they should than be doing it for all minorities
not just the gay ones
or maybe i missed how that is all going on too
not to mention the fact that kids are either bullies or they are bullied, for the most part
the bullied learn how to stand up to the bullies, and grow as a result
this 'day' seems to circumvent that learning experience that most of us go through
I was king of my grade school, but bullied through jr and sr high school
I am a better person for having finally stood up to the bullies, which is what these 'victims' need to do

 

[DeeJayH]

It's the school's property, they get to set the rules. I've made the same argument for cities which put Nativity scenes and such out for Christmas. It's up the the community to decide what they want. It would be nice to put other religious symbols, but it isn't a requirement. It's the same here, it would be nice to allow dissent but it's not required.

private schools YES
public schools NO

private vs public

 

[mikhail]

BTW is it actually called gay day?

 

[jallman]

I would argue that they should than be doing it for all minorities
not just the gay ones
or maybe i missed how that is all going on too
not to mention the fact that kids are either bullies or they are bullied, for the most part
the bullied learn how to stand up to the bullies, and grow as a result
this 'day' seems to circumvent that learning experience that most of us go through
I was king of my grade school, but bullied through jr and sr high school
I am a better person for having finally stood up to the bullies, which is what these 'victims' need to do

Bullying today is not just an occasional bloody nose and some taunting. Bullying today involves guns and high schools in lock down because the picked on kid retaliated with a firearm (Columbine, anyone?). Promoting a peaceful environment is a win/win situation.

We would not even be having this discussion if the girl's shirt was in protest of Martin Luther King, Jr day or if it stated something about Insert Ethnicity Alliance, Be Insert Ethnicity, Not blah blah blah.

Whether most dissenters like it or not, sexual orientation is going to be just as protected as ethnicity in our lifetimes. It wouldn't have to be that way if there weren't people like this girl who feel the need to make their disrespect or disdain known as a matter of public record. Gays are in the middle of countering the threat of public opinions being made into public policies.

They're doing a damned good job of it too from where I am sitting...

 

[talloulou]

They say gays are traumatized, well so are fat kids and nerds and we dont have a silent day for them do we?

That's actually a fairly decent point. However I would say nerds and other types generally have a fairly easy time at finding "groups" within school just like them. Where a student who is homosexual in a small school may not have such support. But still your point was good.

We should have a day to recognize kind behavior towards everyone and not single one group out.

I'd op for MATH day or Science day but that's just me. Kids who are mean as hell won't learn nice from "NICE DAY." And kids who are prejudice against a particular group are just going to be more so on days meant to celebrate that group. That's just how it is with meanies.

 

[jallman]

Because this student has freedom of speech and expression. Would I wear one? NO. Do I think its a kind thing to do, absolutely not. Do I think it is wrong that “gay day” is even being celebrated in our public schools. Yes. There is no place in our public schools for an organized celebration of such a day for anyone. They say gays are traumatized, well so are fat kids and nerds and we dont have a silent day for them do we?

We should have a day to recognize kind behavior towards everyone and not single one group out. All children regardless of what sex or race or sexual preference should be able to attend schools and feel safe without being treated in inhumane ways by anyone, teachers or students. this should not be tolerated. But you can't make people believe something they do not want to believe. Our schools are trying to brainwash kids into believing its ideals and agenda. I'm talking about the NEA.

You can not silence this student if other things are allowed. As long as the T-shirt does not have profanity on it and it does not incite hatred to a particular person by way of a printed name then it should be allowed, that is if other students have similarly worn T-shirts professing other views.

I am in a particularly good humor today so I will only speak to what you wrote in response to me. Suffice to say I wish we could be this respectful of each other in the abortion threads...Perhaps it is because I actually agree with you on most of this...

 

[OKgrannie]

BTW is it actually called gay day?

Try reading, this has been posted several times:

DAY of SILENCE : April 18, 2007

"DAY OF SILENCE, April 18, 2007: The Day of Silence is an annual event held to commemorate and protest anti-LGBT bullying, harassment and discrimination in schools. Students and teachers nationwide will observe the day in silence to echo the silence that LGBT and ally students face everyday. In it's 11th year, the Day of Silence is one of the largest student-led actions in the country."

 

[talloulou]

In fact this is the name of it, " "How to Be Gay: Male Homosexuality and Initiation." 'How to be gay' class draws ire in 3rd term at U. Mich. - September 09, 2003 - Pipe Dream on the Web

Everyone gay because they were born with it? Don't buy it. It can be a learned behavior and lifestyle.

Out of curiosity are you sure that class is actually teaching how a heterosexual can become a homosexual???

'Cause I know nothing about it but would assume from its title that it's probably more about how to live in a straight world while being homosexual and more than likely discusses issues that homosexuals deal with that others don't have to.

In other words if there was a class called "How to be a Woman in the Modern World" we would assume straight off the bat that the class is about women's issues and not about trying to take men who are not women and magically morph them into women.

So is the class really about turning heterosexuals gay or is it about dealing with issues that pertain to homosexuality and living in a more or less straight world?

 

[jallman]

Out of curiosity are you sure that class is actually teaching how a heterosexual can become a homosexual???

'Cause I know nothing about it but would assume from its title that it's probably more about how to live in a straight world while being homosexual and more than likely discusses issues that homosexuals deal with that others don't have to.

In other words if there was a class called "How to be a Woman in the Modern World" we would assume straight off the bat that the class is about women's issues and not about trying to take men who are not women and magically morph them into women.

So is the class really about turning heterosexuals gay or is it about dealing with issues that pertain to homosexuality and living in a more or less straight world?

It's been discussed. No one at Michigan State is trying to turn heteros into homos. She just can't let this one go...

 

[DeeJayH]

Bullying today is not just an occasional bloody nose and some taunting. Bullying today involves guns and high schools in lock down because the picked on kid retaliated with a firearm (Columbine, anyone?). Promoting a peaceful environment is a win/win situation.
Columbine, although it sparked copy cats, is an isolated incident amongs the 1000s of schools where it has not happened
We would not even be having this discussion if the girl's shirt was in protest of Martin Luther King, Jr day or if it stated something about Insert Ethnicity Alliance, Be Insert Ethnicity, Not blah blah blah.
I doubt that
if it has been done, it just has not gotten the press that this girl has
Whether most dissenters like it or not, sexual orientation is going to be just as protected as ethnicity in our lifetimes. It wouldn't have to be that way if there weren't people like this girl who feel the need to make their disrespect or disdain known as a matter of public record. Gays are in the middle of countering the threat of public opinions being made into public policies.
says you, and you are probably right, but....
and are you saying all people have to believe the same things
is it not this girls right to believe, according to her religion, that homosexuality is wrong?
They're doing a damned good job of it too from where I am sitting...

since it is a 'student led' function, I can see giving it more leeway
but since teachers participate, i am a bit concerned
however the numbers involved is unclear
and maybe this is much ado about nothing

 

[DeeJayH]

It's been discussed. No one at Michigan State is trying to turn heteros into homos. She just can't let this one go...

guess i should be thankful i have not encountered one of those gays who are capable of turning me gay :doh

in the great words of popeye

I yam what i yam

period, end of story

 

[Alex]

This student has a right to express their views whether in school or out. I am sure that gay students have the same right to express their sexuality so why should a student be denied the right to express opposition?

The Supreme Court has already ruled that students may wear whatever they want in schools when protesting something they believe in and I agree with that. The case involved a student who wore a black armband to protest the Vietnam War. A federal court will rule in favor of the student.

 

[Alex]

No more need for a gay day than there is for black history month.

I agree, get rid of both of them.

 

[jallman]

says you, and you are probably right, but....
and are you saying all people have to believe the same things
is it not this girls right to believe, according to her religion, that homosexuality is wrong?

I am not sure if I am articulating this well or not...

Everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. They have a right to express those beliefs with respect to and respect for everyone else. A belief that promotes a disparaging idea about other people is not guaranteed a platform just because it is religiously motivated. If the school wishes to suppress an idea or belief because it is disparaging, it has every right to do so. It is not repressing her beliefs or ability to express those beliefs...the school is simply stating that this is not the venue or the platform for her to do so.

You have to admit...these days it is much easier to make a call for tolerance than it is to make a call for any kind of elitism--moral, religious, or otherwise.

 

[talloulou]

This student has a right to express their views whether in school or out. I am sure that gay students have the same right to express their sexuality so why should a student be denied the right to express opposition?

The Supreme Court has already ruled that students may wear whatever they want in schools when protesting something they believe in and I agree with that. The case involved a student who wore a black armband to protest the Vietnam War. A federal court will rule in favor of the student.

The Supreme Court makes bad decisions, that was one of them. School is not a place for "protest." Maybe, college is different. But at the grade school, jr. high, and high school levels "protest" that teachers and principals don't feel like tolerating should not be tolerated. End of story. They are in school to learn not advertise their own beliefs and/or feelings. There is a time and a place for everything. School is neither the time or place for political antics.

 

[ludahai]

Not in the least, that is school property and they set the rules. It's not my place to tell them no, if that's the choice they wish that is how they can do it. They aren't forcing people to participate in the event so I don't see anything fundamental about it being wrong.

But the school belongs to the community. So, the community has the right to expect that its value will be adhered to. Also, while I believe that students do lose some rights when they enter school, if a scheduled activity offends a student's religious (or other) sensibilities, those students to have limited rights to express their disagreement. To me, a T-shirt (so long as it is in good taste) is acceptable.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well, the reverse question can be asked: Why is it necessary for this student to plaster her personal beliefs on a t-shirt...I would be interested in seeing what this shirt actually says before making any judgments though.

The same reason that students are allowed to wear peace signs or anti-war t-shirts. I forget the name of it but there was already a SCOTUS decision on such a case in regards to political expression in school.
​

 

[DeeJayH]

I am not sure if I am articulating this well or not...

Everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. They have a right to express those beliefs with respect to and respect for everyone else. A belief that promotes a disparaging idea about other people is not guaranteed a platform just because it is religiously motivated. If the school wishes to suppress an idea or belief because it is disparaging, it has every right to do so. It is not repressing her beliefs or ability to express those beliefs...the school is simply stating that this is not the venue or the platform for her to do so.

You have to admit...these days it is much easier to make a call for tolerance than it is to make a call for any kind of elitism--moral, religious, or otherwise.

well all i seem to recall is that freedom of speech is limited only by excluding that speech that incites violence
or am i wrong/misinformed

 

[DeeJayH]

The Supreme Court makes bad decisions, that was one of them. School is not a place for "protest." Maybe, college is different. But at the grade school, jr. high, and high school levels "protest" that teachers and principals don't feel like tolerating should not be tolerated. End of story. They are in school to learn not advertise their own beliefs and/or feelings. There is a time and a place for everything. School is neither the time or place for political antics.

so you are against the protest day as well as this girls right to wear a shirt in response?

 

[DeeJayH]

The same reason that students are allowed to wear peace signs or anti-war t-shirts. I forget the name of it but there was already a SCOTUS decision on such a case in regards to political expression in school.​

and if this is true, i can not see how they can discriminate against any message

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Rather than have judges cherry pick and choose which tees are protected under "free speech" the kids should just be put in uniforms.

Judges have already ruled that 1st amendment rights of students in school are next to nil.
What a school or a district says re clothing goes - and that's that.

 

[DeeJayH]

for those who feel bad for the bully gays recieve at school

when is dork/geek day? they get bullied

when is pencil protector day? they get bullied

many people get bullied, why dont they get days to protest

why is this day specifically for gays? why not all who are bullied
how about 'stand up to bully' day? otherwise it sounds like discrimination
it sounds like playing the victim card like so many do

 

[DeeJayH]

Judges have already ruled that 1st amendment rights of students in school are next to nil.
What a school or a district says re clothing goes - and that's that.

than shouldn't these so called protest days be eliminated
shouldn't Black history month be eliminated

they are discriminatory
and since they have no right to 1st amendment protection....
although i thought all americans were afforded this, so Simons post is a surprise to me

personally, i believe until college, school should stick to the basics