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Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

danarhea

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The attorney at the center of successfully arguing that California's Proposition 8 is unconstitutional calls Judge Vaughn Walker's ruling an example of "judicial responsibility."

Ted Olson told Fox News' Chris Wallace Sunday that it's not "judicial activism" when a judge follows the Constitution.
And you know what? Olsen is 100% correct. Conservatism argues for limited government, and greater individual freedom.

Now, I know that a few in here are going to go off on a tirade and start calling me a fake Conservative again, so let me pose the following question: Which is more Conservative? That the government should get off the backs of the people, or that the government should get off the backs of the people, except where it should be on the backs of the people in cases where I don't agree with something? Think about it. Many who claim to be Conservatives simply are not who they say they are. And, of course, they are always the first to accuse others of not being Conservative. You can say "He who smelt it dealt it".

DanaRhea's law of Conservatism - The term "Social Conservatism" is an oxymoron.

BTW, before you call Ted Olsen a fake Conservative, you should know that he is the one who successfully argued before the Supreme Court the Bush side of Bush v. Gore in 2000. His Conservative credentials are beyond question. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Article is here.
 
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Jetboogieman

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100% correct.

I've made this exact point in every single gay marriage thread that I'm aware of.

I actually rather like some facets of conservatism, just not the ones that attempt to discriminate and sets up "family values councils" to spread hateful. Propoganda about a group of people they don't agree with.
 

Gardener

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Actually the word "conserve" in the term conservative has to do with a person's attitudes towards social conventions and institutions. What a conservative wishes to conserve is social order, that above social justice, so by very description a conservative would support the status quo of defining marriage as it has long been defined. It is the desire for social justice - -a liberal trait -- that seeks to end the discrimination against gay people.
 

Vincent

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No, gay marriage is not a conservative value. Conservatives believe in certain values--one of them is the traditional family. That family is comprised of a man, a woman, and typically several kids. Saying that two men or two women can get married, adopt a few kids and have that same family is an affront to conservative values.

By the way, we don't want to deprive gays of any rights. We want gays to have the same marriage rights as anyone else--namely, the right to marry an adult member of the opposite sex.
 

1069

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Actually the word "conserve" in the term conservative has to do with a person's attitudes towards social conventions and institutions. What a conservative wishes to conserve is social order, that above social justice, so by very description a conservative would support the status quo of defining marriage as it has long been defined. It is the desire for social justice - -a liberal trait -- that seeks to end the discrimination against gay people.

Agreed.


_____
 

Redress

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Dan is a fake conservative!
 

Captain America

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IMO, Ted Olsen looks at conservatism much the same way Barry Goldwater, The Godfather of Conservatism, sees it.

I long for the day when conservatism is no longer bastardized and splintered by the disgruntled and angry "social conservatives" that are constantly whining and the good name of real conservative's has been restored. But with today's divisive media telling all the dittoheads how to think, I don't see it happening anytime too soon.

Just an opinion.
 

Captain America

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Actually the word "conserve" in the term conservative has to do with a person's attitudes towards social conventions and institutions. What a conservative wishes to conserve is social order, that above social justice, so by very description a conservative would support the status quo of defining marriage as it has long been defined. It is the desire for social justice - -a liberal trait -- that seeks to end the discrimination against gay people.
That's very profound and well thought out. I value social justice and also want to maintain social order. I think both are required or we will have neither. Theres only one thing we can be sure of and that's change. We, as a species as well as a nation, have been changing since our inception. People have fought that "change" down through the ages and I don't expect there will ever come a time when there aren't people out there fighting the inevitable change. On one extreme you have regressive people that would just as soon take us all back to the 1950's and there are those progressives out there who would project us 100 years ahead, if they only could.

I think the balance of the two ideologies keeps us on a slow, but steady, adaptable, pace. Notice that, regardless of the regressive efforts of some, we're still changing anyways. And you notice the change is always towards the advancement of individual liberty (a few setbacks during the last 10 years or so notwithstanding.) But I think America is back on track heading towards freedom for all. Man, I just love America. Ain't it great?
 
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Renae

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There is more to being a Conservative then just backing Gov't laying off people Dan. But hey, you want to be the number Conservative in the liberal posters eyes... be my guest. I heard you were seen at a Bill White rally...

Gay Marriage attacks the foundation of the Institution, and that's why the American People, whenever given the chance have rejected it out right. It's taken court cases to pass it. Most Conservatives have no problem with CIVIL UNIONS, because that more accurately identifies the union. But oh no, that's SO EVIL. I'm all for Gays having full legal rights, quit trying to change Marriage to mean Adam and Steve and running through the courts to force that on society. And yes, as soon as Gay Marriage is legalized, Bob will want to marry in too, so it'll be Bob Steve and Adam getting married. Wonder if you'll post a thread saying a TRUE Conservative backs this because it's not the Gov't's place to judge the conduct and love of the citizenry.

Spare us Dan, you're as Conservative as Arlen Specter or Olympia Snowe. That's why the only people that seem to call you are real conservative are liberals.. they know you're a patsy for their beliefs. This thread is more proof. I don't care how "Conservative" Ted Olsen's creds make him, he can still be WRONG. Newt and Palin could come out in favor of Gay Marriage and I'd say they were both wrong. Until the PEOPLE support changing the definition of Marriage, forcing Gay Marriage through the courts is morally reprehensible. (But denying Civil Unions with full legal bennies is also just as evil).

Quit trying to push your "Social Values Free" Conservatism as some sort of "Real Conservative" value, it ain't. It's morally devoid of value.
 

the makeout hobo

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There is more to being a Conservative then just backing Gov't laying off people Dan. But hey, you want to be the number Conservative in the liberal posters eyes... be my guest. I heard you were seen at a Bill White rally...

Gay Marriage attacks the foundation of the Institution, and that's why the American People, whenever given the chance have rejected it out right. It's taken court cases to pass it. Most Conservatives have no problem with CIVIL UNIONS, because that more accurately identifies the union. But oh no, that's SO EVIL. I'm all for Gays having full legal rights, quit trying to change Marriage to mean Adam and Steve and running through the courts to force that on society. And yes, as soon as Gay Marriage is legalized, Bob will want to marry in too, so it'll be Bob Steve and Adam getting married. Wonder if you'll post a thread saying a TRUE Conservative backs this because it's not the Gov't's place to judge the conduct and love of the citizenry.

Spare us Dan, you're as Conservative as Arlen Specter or Olympia Snowe. That's why the only people that seem to call you are real conservative are liberals.. they know you're a patsy for their beliefs. This thread is more proof. I don't care how "Conservative" Ted Olsen's creds make him, he can still be WRONG. Newt and Palin could come out in favor of Gay Marriage and I'd say they were both wrong. Until the PEOPLE support changing the definition of Marriage, forcing Gay Marriage through the courts is morally reprehensible. (But denying Civil Unions with full legal bennies is also just as evil).

Quit trying to push your "Social Values Free" Conservatism as some sort of "Real Conservative" value, it ain't. It's morally devoid of value.
Why is pushing it through the courts so "evil"? Should interracial couples have waited for the voting public to let them get married? The courts are there to make sure the majority doesn't run roughshod over the rights of the minority. You have no more right to vote on mine and Mike's marriage than I would to vote on you and your wife's. If the court doesn't get to weigh in on issues that come down to the very definition of who a right covers, then we may as well scrap the courts and revert to pure democracy.
 

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I'd like to see the government stay out of "marriage" all together. The states should issue civil unions to all couples.
 

Renae

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Why is pushing it through the courts so "evil"? Should interracial couples have waited for the voting public to let them get married? The courts are there to make sure the majority doesn't run roughshod over the rights of the minority. You have no more right to vote on mine and Mike's marriage than I would to vote on you and your wife's. If the court doesn't get to weigh in on issues that come down to the very definition of who a right covers, then we may as well scrap the courts and revert to pure democracy.
Nice strawman, "Scrap the courts and revert to pure democracy lol!"

Bugger off that bud.

The point is, the people, that's the majority of Americans hold the Institution of Marriage as having a defined meaning. It harms no one to maintain this and causes a huge amount of unrest and anger by doing so.

I'd be on your side, if there wasn't a viable, legal alternative that granted all the legal and civil benefits as Marriage, but there is. Civil Unions. If the real goal of the Gay Agenda were those legal rights... but they want to force their views on all. And that's wrong. It's wrong going through the courts BECAUSE there is this viable alternative. It's... dishonest, and thus my stance.
 

Aunt Spiker

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And you know what? Olsen is 100% correct. Conservatism argues for limited government, and greater individual freedom.

Now, I know that a few in here are going to go off on a tirade and start calling me a fake Conservative again, so let me pose the following question: Which is more Conservative? That the government should get off the backs of the people, or that the government should get off the backs of the people, except where it should be on the backs of the people in cases where I don't agree with something? Think about it. Many who claim to be Conservatives simply are not who they say they are. And, of course, they are always the first to accuse others of not being Conservative. You can say "He who smelt it dealt it".

DanaRhea's law of Conservatism - The term "Social Conservatism" is an oxymoron.

BTW, before you call Ted Olsen a fake Conservative, you should know that he is the one who successfully argued before the Supreme Court the Bush side of Bush v. Gore in 2000. His Conservative credentials are beyond question. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Article is here.
The reason why this is a strong problem for many is that "Republican" is synonymous with "Conservative" - when these two don't actually mesh fully.

In fact, all too often the ideologies and political platforms are confused - leaving many frustrated and lost.
 

the makeout hobo

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Nice strawman, "Scrap the courts and revert to pure democracy lol!"

Bugger off that bud.
If you expect the courts to be subservient to the whims of the voters, that's essentially what you're advocating.

The point is, the people, that's the majority of Americans hold the Institution of Marriage as having a defined meaning. It harms no one to maintain this and causes a huge amount of unrest and anger by doing so.
It causes a huge amount of unrest and anger by denying people the right to marry, and granting that right to same sex couples does not affect straight couples in any meaningful way. They can hold the institution to mean whatever they want, they can say to themselves "adam and steve aren't REALLY married", but it doesn't change the fact that they are denying people a right that they themselves hold.

I'd be on your side, if there wasn't a viable, legal alternative that granted all the legal and civil benefits as Marriage, but there is. Civil Unions. If the real goal of the Gay Agenda were those legal rights... but they want to force their views on all. And that's wrong. It's wrong going through the courts BECAUSE there is this viable alternative. It's... dishonest, and thus my stance.
Except civil union ISN'T marriage. It's a different institution. Not to mention, civil union doesn't always give all those legal rights anyways. It wasn't wrong for interracial couples to go through the courts, and its not wrong when gay couples are having their 14th amendment right denied
 

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No, gay marriage is not a conservative value. Conservatives believe in certain values--one of them is the traditional family. That family is comprised of a man, a woman, and typically several kids. Saying that two men or two women can get married, adopt a few kids and have that same family is an affront to conservative values.

By the way, we don't want to deprive gays of any rights. We want gays to have the same marriage rights as anyone else--namely, the right to marry an adult member of the opposite sex.
The father of your movement would likely disagree with you.

Barry Goldwater on the Military Ban

True conservatives believe in freedom, liberty, and equality.

Only religous-based conservatives who wish to force their religion on everyone as law believe in restricting the freedoms of others in pursuit of their goals.

It's just "big government" used against non-Christians.
 
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disneydude

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If "conservatives" really believe in small government they would not be seeking big government in the social arena.
 

disneydude

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The father of your movement would likely disagree with you.

Barry Goldwater on the Military Ban

True conservatives believe in freedom, liberty, and equality.

Only religous-based conservatives who wish to force their religion on everyone as law believe in restricting the freedoms of others in pursuit of their goals.

It's just "big government" used against non-Christians.
You are 100% correct.
 

CriticalThought

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Until the PEOPLE support changing the definition of Marriage, forcing Gay Marriage through the courts is morally reprehensible. (But denying Civil Unions with full legal bennies is also just as evil).
True conservatives understand that US Constitutional rights are not to be put to a vote. The will of the people is the United State Constitution, not a ballot measure passed in any state. And until a federal amendment is attached to the US Constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman, then it is the responsibility of our independent judiciary to uphold our Federal Constitution. And if our independent judiciary determines that the people of a state violated the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution by discriminating against gender by passing a law prohibiting same sex marriage, then our independent judiciary is obligated to strike down that law in order to defend the will of the people, the US Constitution, and to protect the Constitutional rights of the people.

Why don't "real" conservatives like you get that simple fact?
 
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danarhea

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There is more to being a Conservative then just backing Gov't laying off people Dan. But hey, you want to be the number Conservative in the liberal posters eyes... be my guest. I heard you were seen at a Bill White rally...

Gay Marriage attacks the foundation of the Institution, and that's why the American People, whenever given the chance have rejected it out right. It's taken court cases to pass it. Most Conservatives have no problem with CIVIL UNIONS, because that more accurately identifies the union. But oh no, that's SO EVIL. I'm all for Gays having full legal rights, quit trying to change Marriage to mean Adam and Steve and running through the courts to force that on society. And yes, as soon as Gay Marriage is legalized, Bob will want to marry in too, so it'll be Bob Steve and Adam getting married. Wonder if you'll post a thread saying a TRUE Conservative backs this because it's not the Gov't's place to judge the conduct and love of the citizenry.

Spare us Dan, you're as Conservative as Arlen Specter or Olympia Snowe. That's why the only people that seem to call you are real conservative are liberals.. they know you're a patsy for their beliefs. This thread is more proof. I don't care how "Conservative" Ted Olsen's creds make him, he can still be WRONG. Newt and Palin could come out in favor of Gay Marriage and I'd say they were both wrong. Until the PEOPLE support changing the definition of Marriage, forcing Gay Marriage through the courts is morally reprehensible. (But denying Civil Unions with full legal bennies is also just as evil).

Quit trying to push your "Social Values Free" Conservatism as some sort of "Real Conservative" value, it ain't. It's morally devoid of value.
There is more to being a Conservative than paying lip service to Conservatism. That is what the real fakes do. They cry Conservatism, then they want the Government to step in.

1) Real Conservatism means leaving the decision for abortion up to the states, as per the 10th Amendment. Fake Conservatives want to dictate abortion law to all 50 states. To me this is not any different than Liberals who want to force all 50 states to make abortion on demand available.

2) Real Conservatives don't tell others how immoral they are, while at the same time, get caught having homosexual affairs.

3) Real Conservatives are against Federal spending, not only when Obama is in power, but when Bush was in power too.

4) Real Conservatives are not abject hypocrites.

5) A real Conservative's hero is Ronald Reagan, or Barry Goldwater, or William F. Buckley. A fake Conservative's idol is Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck.

6) A real Conservative does believe in social values, but at the same time, recognizes that it is not the government's place to piously and self-righteously dictate those values to others. A real Conservative recognizes that God has the final say, not a collection of men who call themselves a government.

7) A real Conservative does not believe in bailouts for failing companies. A fake Conservative does not believe in bailouts for failing companies, unless the company is failing during the Bush administration.

8) A real Conservative has Tea Parties. A fake Conservative has the Tea Party Express.

9) A real Conservative loves America, and all it stands for. A fake Conservative loves America except where it stands for things he does not believe in.

10) A real Conservative holds to Conservative values his whole life. A fake Conservative is much like a Liberal on steroids, when it suits his political purposes.

Top 10 bonus

11) A real Conservative in Texas will vote for Bill White, not because he is a Democrat, but because Rick Perry is a Socialist of the worst kind, and not a Conservative in any way, shape, or form. A fake Conservative will vote for Rick Perry because he has an "R" after his name, and for no other reason.
 
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Renae

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If "conservatives" really believe in small government they would not be seeking big government in the social arena.
Like you have the first clue what Conservatives want... :roll:

Keeping Marriage between a man and a woman isn't big government, it's society keeping traditional standards, nothing more, nothing less. Nice try, thanks for playing but :failpail:
 

winston53660

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Like you have the first clue what Conservatives want... :roll:

Keeping Marriage between a man and a woman isn't big government, it's society keeping traditional standards, nothing more, nothing less. Nice try, thanks for playing but :failpail:
So they don't want smaller government in our personal lives?
 

FilmFestGuy

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Like you have the first clue what Conservatives want... :roll:

Keeping Marriage between a man and a woman isn't big government, it's society keeping traditional standards, nothing more, nothing less. Nice try, thanks for playing but :failpail:
It's big government. That's it. You believe that government can tell people who they can and cannot marry. We believe that people should have the freedom to marry the individual they choose to as long as both are consenting adults.

You believe that government should get in between a woman and her doctor and should dictate whom people should marry.

It's big government. You've just been convinced that it isn't by the partisans.

Barry Goldwater - the founder of the modern Conservative movement - was for keeping government out of people's relationships.

Read up on him. He's someone to be proud of.

Washingtonpost.com: Goldwater Speech

And he would heap scorn on what the conservative movement has become (in fact, he did before he died).
 

Renae

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There is more to being a Conservative than paying lip service to Conservatism. That is what the real fakes do. They cry Conservatism, then they want the Government to step in.
Yeah, that's me, wanting gov't to step in :roll: Let's break you down and eat you for breakfast.


1) Real Conservatism means leaving the decision for abortion up to the states, as per the 10th Amendment. Fake Conservatives want to dictate abortion law to all 50 states. To me this is not any different than Liberals who want to force all 50 states to make abortion on demand available.
Most Conservatives, like all I know and consider good conservatives WANT the decision decided by the individual states. So you seem to have no real point here. Or are you saying that most Conservatives want a blanket ban nationwide? Cause if you claim that... you're just parroting the Lefty fear mongering that Conservatives want to ban abortion outright. Gee... I think I see the start of a trend here.

2) Real Conservatives don't tell others how immoral they are, while at the same time, get caught having homosexual affairs.
You mean decent folks don't do the "Do as I say not as I do" crap? Well there is a no brainer! Also note when a "Conservative" is caught doing such, they get booted out of office... Dem's get re-elected... Again fail to see your point here. Just making some lame blanket hit on Republicans for the scandals of a few members... did you get that from Huffpo?

3) Real Conservatives are against Federal spending, not only when Obama is in power, but when Bush was in power too.
And most of us WERE, why do you think 2006 and 2008 happened? Bush and the GOP Leadership depressed the base and ran us off. Again, you are making some lame blanket commentary to make yourself appear to be even handed and wise... you're spouting both common sense and what most Conservatives agree with... you haven't made a point here.

4) Real Conservatives are not abject hypocrites.
5) A real Conservative's hero is Ronald Reagan, or Barry Goldwater, or William F. Buckley. A fake Conservative's idol is Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck.
LOL. SO you cannot hold Reagan as an Icon, and listen to Rush, Hannity or Beck. Here's a hint Dan, "Real Conservatives" reject pandering folks liek you telling them who to believe and listen too... don't believe me? Jsut ask this guy why he lost his primary by 42%
Right Now - Why did Rep. Bob Inglis lose by 42 points?
First Read - GOP watch: Inglis blames Palin and Beck

6) A real Conservative does believe in social values, but at the same time, recognizes that it is not the government's place to piously and self-righteously dictate those values to others. A real Conservative recognizes that God has the final say, not a collection of men who call themselves a government.
Ahh the old "Those fake conservatives want to establish a theocracy" line of attack. So instead of being proud of having, and supporting moral values they believe in, "real Conservatives" should be ashamed of EVER suggesting that their beliefs should have any place in local, state or federal Gov't. There is a term for folks like you, Blue Blood Republican. You sound an AWFUL lot like them.

7) A real Conservative does not believe in bailouts for failing companies. A fake Conservative does not believe in bailouts for failing companies, unless the company is failing during the Bush administration.
How many "Conservatives" backed the bailouts on this forum? Few to none. Who are you rallying against here buddy?

8) A real Conservative has Tea Parties. A fake Conservative has the Tea Party Express.
Yeah, outrage at big gov't is SO wrong. How dare anyone that attends these rally's call themselves "conservative"!?!? REAL Conservatives don't let their voices be heard, or get excited. No they remain calm, and look for bi-partisan reach across the isle compromise on all issues...

9) A real Conservative loves America, and all it stands for. A fake Conservative loves America except where it stands for things he does not believe in.
So a REAL Conservative backs anything and everything they are against they love too eh? So they have no real values, just peace love and dope man!
The only "conservatives" that do crap like this are the idiots like the Westboro Baptist Church fools.

10) A real Conservative holds to Conservative values his whole life. A fake Conservative is much like a Liberal on steroids, when it suits his political purposes.
A "real Conservative" doesn't let his personal views influence his political views, GOT IT! So why should a "real" conservative even vote? After all his "Values" might influence his political views and we Just CAN'T HAVE THAT.

Top 10 bonus

11) A real Conservative in Texas will vote for Bill White, not because he is a Democrat, but because Rick Perry is a Socialist of the worst kind, and not a Conservative in any way, shape, or form. A fake Conservative will vote for Rick Perry because he has an "R" after his name, and for no other reason.
Question: Why should anyone VOTE for White? Just because Perry sucks? At least we know our "Real Conservative" will vote Democrat...

Shocking really.

Almost all of your commentary is hallow, pointless, you might as well said "A REAL Conservative doesn't eat Lime Jello", it would have been just as meaningful.

Here's a more accurate list of "Conservative Values".

1. Loves America, and Loves the Constitution.

2. Government only as big as is NEEDED to fulfill Gov'ts Constitutional Obligations.

3. Isn't ashamed of his Personal and Moral Values, and uses them to GUIDE his decisions in life. (that includes voting for those of you in Rio Linda)

4. Can listen to Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh and appreciate the humor of the entertainment and glean information from it at the same time. (And turns up the volume around co-workers to help educate them too)

5. Doesn't backdown or run from his beliefs because some people may not like him...


Bonus!

Doesn't vote for a liberal just cause the GOP choice is imperfect without cause, Bill White is a big Government guy. Does that make.. Dan a Hypocrite?

Rick Perry is somewhat corrupt and kind of a dick sometimes, Bill White BELIEVES in the power of Gov't. I'll go against the BIG Gov't any day.
 
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