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Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' [W:155, 235]]

Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Have Christian schools during the last 1000+ years preached to the children? YES! Are they preaching.. some yes!

Anybody who equates Christian schools to the racist and misogynistic swill being promulgated at the Madras Muslim schools is obviously totally divorced from reality. One big difference, of course, is that girls can actually attend Christian schools.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Seriously, I have to iterate this for you? If the best that you can say is that it is 'not detrimental' then it is not good enough. If you can't make a positive case for having 'faith' in schools then there is no reason for it to be there.

Except the status quo is that faith schools exist and Christian schools have existed in the UK for centuries. Surely taking an action against the status quo should empirically demonstrate the negative impact of such, not for the sake of doing so because of your feelings.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Anybody who equates Christian schools to the racist and misogynistic swill being promulgated at the Madras Muslim schools is obviously totally divorced from reality. One big difference, of course, is that girls can actually attend Christian schools.

The difference you are drawing is a matter of only a few hundred years in time.

The problem is that state funded 'faith' schools are facilitating the extremes at a time when the best response all round is to make the state more secular, we do not need the state making a nursery for the educational ambitions of madmen.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Except the status quo is that faith schools exist and Christian schools have existed in the UK for centuries. Surely taking an action against the status quo should empirically demonstrate the negative impact of such, not for the sake of doing so because of your feelings.

The status quo was the increasing secularisation of the state that Blair reversed leading to Reg Vardy creating an unholy trinity of evangelical schools teaching 'Creationism' in science classes and ultimately to the situation with Free schools today (another of Blairs shameful blunders that Cameron didn't have the balls to reverse). I am old enough to remember almost mandatory CoE morning assemblies at my comprehensive school and it is typical of the 'entitlement culture' among Christians that they cry 'foul' when any attempt is made to level the playing field.

If there is nothing in it for religion as you imply then why are they so willing to invest so much in schooling?
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Anybody who equates Christian schools to the racist and misogynistic swill being promulgated at the Madras Muslim schools is obviously totally divorced from reality. One big difference, of course, is that girls can actually attend Christian schools.

Girls attend the school in the topic. No difference there. Any faith school is by it's nature divisive. Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Protestant, .... All claiming difference and superiority to the others.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Except the status quo is that faith schools exist and Christian schools have existed in the UK for centuries. Surely taking an action against the status quo should empirically demonstrate the negative impact of such, not for the sake of doing so because of your feelings.

Catholic and Christian schools have existed for centuries -they have also been highly selective or the intake was from the wealthy and gentry. The point is not about whether faith schools have existed but whether by nature of being a faith school they are better.

Until they compete in the modern era with ordinary schools that take students from a variety of backgrounds and ability - showing equal or better exam results then the are just a niche. There is no other justification for their existence.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Catholic and Christian schools have existed for centuries -they have also been highly selective or the intake was from the wealthy and gentry. The point is not about whether faith schools have existed but whether by nature of being a faith school they are better.

Until they compete in the modern era with ordinary schools that take students from a variety of backgrounds and ability - showing equal or better exam results then the are just a niche. There is no other justification for their existence.

You have to prove that they are not better and are in fact detrimental to justify legislative change.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

One of the curses of Northern Ireland (and the West of Scotland to a lesser extent) is perpetuated by faith schools underlining differences in praying to the same God.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

...adults cannot always be trusted to do best for the children in their charge.

I would argue that this is the case in so far as it concerns a great deal more than simply education.

Should the state assign Medical Supervisors to every family, to ensure that parents are feeding their kids "proper" foods, inoculating them on schedule, getting them plenty of exercise, bathing them properly and regularly, and getting swift professional care at the first sign of an illness or injury (because most parents aren't professionally qualified to, for example, differentiate between a bad dose of the flu and meningitis in its early stages)?

Where else are parents likely to "fail" that we can have the government come in and set things right "for the children"?

Random home inspections? Random Health & welfare inspections of vehicles on the roadway?

Slippery, slippery slope man.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Girls attend the school in the topic. No difference there. Any faith school is by it's nature divisive. Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Protestant, .... All claiming difference and superiority to the others.

Again, anybody who compares a Christian school with a Muslim school just hasn't been paying attention to what is going on in the world. Muslim schools are by their very nature misogynistic, simply because the faith itself considers women as chattel.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

I would argue that this is the case in so far as it concerns a great deal more than simply education.

Should the state assign Medical Supervisors to every family, to ensure that parents are feeding their kids "proper" foods, inoculating them on schedule, getting them plenty of exercise, bathing them properly and regularly, and getting swift professional care at the first sign of an illness or injury (because most parents aren't professionally qualified to, for example, differentiate between a bad dose of the flu and meningitis in its early stages)?

Where else are parents likely to "fail" that we can have the government come in and set things right "for the children"?

Random home inspections? Random Health & welfare inspections of vehicles on the roadway?

Slippery, slippery slope man.

None of that is what is being argued, the basic tenet is that any educational organisation that takes tax-payer money should justify it's existence through good practice and inspection of service. Free schools as proposed by the current government are supposed to have less oversight (Conservative belief in market forces for everything) and freedom to hire just who they like as teachers.
Another govt body went into this particular school and forced an immediate shutdown because the school inspected hadn't done basic police checks on whether any of the adults in the school had been CRB checked (to see if any teachers were paedophiles or sex offenders)

Where else are parents likely to "fail" that we can have the government come in and set things right "for the children"?

In this instance, free or charter schools are set up because local parents and organisations want a particular type of school for their children). That ended up with girls being treated as lesser citizens, poor educational practice and a dangerous lack of safety for the young children involved at the school.

You have to prove that they are not better and are in fact detrimental to justify legislative change.

I am well aware that parents like such schools and well off non religious parents will try and get their kids in because they are selective. Also most of our politicians will have been through such schools and there will be a large pressure group to maintain the status quo.

The issue as above is about use of public funds. Looking at pure issues of equality of educational opportunity - these schools have less poor children (the free school meals data is proof) than any similar school. They are also selective and will also have less disabled students for teachers to deal with.

This raises a wider question about best use of dwindling resources - ask any parent if they would like their kids to be at a highly selective school where exam results are very high and 99% will say yes. If that school is very homogeneous in parental income, type of student etc it's an easy class to teach. The teacher facing an inner city underfunded class with a large number of poor children and with disabled students faces a much tougher task.

Here's another Islamic Faith School (this time an all girls school) - top exam results, 100% muslim and 93%% well off parents. Put the context of the community it sits in where only 70% of the local population are well off and the vast majority are white.

Is this serving the local community or just a small selection? Is this detrimental to the local community?
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

The difference you are drawing is a matter of only a few hundred years in time.

.

It always amuses me when illiberal people trot out this unintelligent and very hackneyed platitude to defend Islamist backwardness.

Perhaps you have been reading too many comic books, but we have not suffered some rift in the time/space continuum. This is 2013 for all people.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

The difference you are drawing is a matter of only a few hundred years in time.

The problem is that state funded 'faith' schools are facilitating the extremes at a time when the best response all round is to make the state more secular, we do not need the state making a nursery for the educational ambitions of madmen.

It always amuses me when illiberal people trot out this unintelligent and very hackneyed platitude to defend Islamist backwardness.

Perhaps you have been reading too many comic books, but we have not suffered some rift in the time/space continuum. This is 2013 for all people.

I would say Will is consistent, by suggesting 'all' faith schools should be treated the same. How is that "illiberal"?

Paul
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

The difference you are drawing is a matter of only a few hundred years in time.

Only a few hundred years??

The problem is that state funded 'faith' schools are facilitating the extremes at a time when the best response all round is to make the state more secular, we do not need the state making a nursery for the educational ambitions of madmen.

So you want to preach secularism? How would that advance mankind?
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Girls attend the school in the topic. No difference there. Any faith school is by it's nature divisive. Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Protestant, .... All claiming difference and superiority to the others.

Of course one of the major differences is that your life will not be threatened if you leave Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any other religion. Nor will you be murdered if any of those leaders feel you are offending God or his messengers. Nor, of course, do any of them insist that children remain ignorant as well as hateful of other religions.

It seems that every other religion we can name is superior to Islam.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

I would say Will is consistent, by suggesting 'all' faith schools should be treated the same. How is that "illiberal"?

Paul

They cannot all be treated the same because it must be recognized that they aren't all the same. Of course it is very liberal to say that all schools and religions are the same, but that doesn't make it true..
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

They cannot all be treated the same because it must be recognized that they aren't all the same. Of course it is very liberal to say that all schools and religions are the same, but that doesn't make it true..

ALL religous schools are not faith based?

Paul
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www


Shame the thread is degenerating into off topic comparisons with Christianity or "illiberalism".

The core essence is that Al-Madinah school was created under the current conservative government's drive for "free" or charter type schools where
1) schools are not required to hire staff who have been trained
2) anyone with limited experience and ability can set up a free school

The end result in this particular school is that nobody bothered to CRB check the staff (hence even paedophiles or other sex offenders could have gotten a job there) and that highly backward policies such as hijabs for female staff and girls sitting at the back of the class as second class citizens.

The other major tenet of the thread is about the social effect of all faith schooling in the UK - not just muslim faith schools.
If anyone is stupidly trying to say all muslim schools are bad or backwards - I've already posted the link to a report on an all girl muslim faith school in Blackburn which has the highest ranked exam grades across all government funded schools in the UK. This means number one over selective / christian / jewish / hindu / jedi-knight / great spaghetti monster / or whatever religion you wish to say is better or less backward.

Tauheedul Islam girl's school in Blackburn has the highest exam grades for all students across the country but that doesn't mean all muslim schools are better. Al-Madinah faith school has failed the safety of its students and treated females as 2nd class citizens but that doesn't mean all muslim schools have done the same.

The point is social cohesiveness. Tauheedul as I pointed out is 100% muslim (though they are supposed to attract from the local white community too) and they take very few poor children in which means the kids have more aspirational parents and anyone who has ever tried teaching will tell you that intelligence without family support and ambition means you have a very hard job engaging the students.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

ALL religous schools are not faith based?

Paul

I never mentioned faith. Please quote me directly.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

I never mentioned faith. Please quote me directly.

That's the worst "get-myself-out-of-my-self-created ***t" I've read in a while.

The whole thread is about faith school(s) and you directly quoted and replied to a post William Rea made about faith schools.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

I never mentioned faith. Please quote me directly.

So some faith schools are Ok, but others are not Ok? It's a simple enough question..

Paul
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

So some faith schools are Ok, but others are not Ok? It's a simple enough question..

Paul

Some religious schools are okay and others aren't.

Many have sent their children to Catholic schools, for example, for reasons other than faith.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

I would say Will is consistent, by suggesting 'all' faith schools should be treated the same. How is that "illiberal"?

Paul

It's just another example of the Christian entitlement culture that has generated a political newspeak to address the lust for temporal power; a new generation supposedly concerned with the 'next life' but, obsessed with power and wealth in this one. It works like this...

1. 'The faith community' - A constituency of convenience
2. 'The Christian community' - A constituency of convenience
3. 'The Brand X community' - A constituency of those few that agree with my cult that will be allowed to live when Brand X obtains the power to obliterate the heathens.

They talk 1 to us, talk 2 to themselves but in reality want 3.
 
Re: Teachers at Derby's Muslim school 'ordered to wear hijabs' Read more: http://www

Except the status quo is that faith schools exist and Christian schools have existed in the UK for centuries. Surely taking an action against the status quo should empirically demonstrate the negative impact of such, not for the sake of doing so because of your feelings.

Christian entitlement culture demands the retention of privilege so, I understand where you are coming from. It is hard for it to come to terms with not being more equal than others.

Negative impact? How about you look just a little to the north of your island?
 
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