Taxation is nothing more than theft

[phattonez]

The concept of private property is a creation of government.

Do you own yourself?

 

[phattonez]

No, it's not required for one to concede that the government owns the land, merely that the laws of the government preside over the country as a whole, including private property, and that by living in that country, one implicitly enters into a contract with the government to abide by its laws.

Let's look at drug cartels who may preside over a certain portion of land. They take money from the people living there, like protection money. A punishment awaits if the money is not paid (an analogy to taxation and the prison sentence that awaits if the taxes are not paid). Is the action of the drug cartel just? Of course not. But how is the drug cartel any different from the government? Because they ask the people? What if 51% of the people support the drug cartel? Are they justified then? The other 49% can be taxed and it is moral?

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Let's look at drug cartels who may preside over a certain portion of land. They take money from the people living there, like protection money. A punishment awaits if the money is not paid (an analogy to taxation and the prison sentence that awaits if the taxes are not paid). Is the action of the drug cartel just? Of course not. But how is the drug cartel any different from the government? Because they ask the people? What if 51% of the people support the drug cartel? Are they justified then? The other 49% can be taxed and it is moral?

How is a drug cartel different than the government? Well, it really depends on the government, doesn't it?

Of course, drug cartels don't make laws, or have a justice system, or even a legal system, or a form of representation, etc.........................................

 

[samsmart]

The rent is something you agree to pay. I'm talking about something you're coerced into paying. Even if it does benefit me, how is it not theft?

You are free to vacate the apartment building at any time. Likewise, you are free to leave the country any time you wish.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Yeah why not just go somewhere that has lower taxes?

 

[Wiseone]

Because of the mystique that surrounds the government which allows them to get away with things that individuals are not able to. I'm trying to demystify by using analogies to talk about the morality of the actual action.

The entire purpose of government is to do things that individuals cannot do for themselves and to act as a function of a national will, to organize national efforts, and to protect the general welfare of its people.

Now when did you agree to pay taxes? When you USED tax payer funded services, like the roads you drive on, or the police you count on for protection or the ambulance you want if you are injuried. Unless you think its not immmoral for you to pay no taxes but use tax payer services thus indirectly stealing other people's money.

 

[phattonez]

How is a drug cartel different than the government? Well, it really depends on the government, doesn't it?

Of course, drug cartels don't make laws, or have a justice system, or even a legal system, or a form of representation, etc.........................................

Cartels don't enforce justice? They don't kill intruders? Seems like a system of justice to me. They make laws, they enforce justice. Would it be different if they had a form of representation? If they had support of 51% of the population, would that justify them?

 

[phattonez]

You are free to vacate the apartment building at any time. Likewise, you are free to leave the country any time you wish.

I gave another analogy before. If a thief comes onto my house and says that he won't rob me if I move, is that moral?

 

[phattonez]

Yeah why not just go somewhere that has lower taxes?

Because being forced off of the land that you own is immoral. We're discussing this right now (the drug cartel discussion).

 

[phattonez]

The entire purpose of government is to do things that individuals cannot do for themselves and to act as a function of a national will, to organize national efforts, and to protect the general welfare of its people.

Now when did you agree to pay taxes? When you USED tax payer funded services, like the roads you drive on, or the police you count on for protection or the ambulance you want if you are injuried. Unless you think its not immmoral for you to pay no taxes but use tax payer services thus indirectly stealing other people's money.

This is the pizza analogy again. If a thief comes to my house, steals money, buys 500 pizzas and leaves them at my door, does the fact that I eat some make his action moral?

 

[Wiseone]

The concept of private property is a creation of government.

Do you own yourself?

Cartels don't enforce justice? They don't kill intruders? Seems like a system of justice to me. They make laws, they enforce justice. Would it be different if they had a form of representation? If they had support of 51% of the population, would that justify them?

They could be considered a government in a more traditional sense because they do create and enforce laws, do have justice systems in a sense, exercise a monopoly of power, etc. However morals, as you should know are very very RELATIVE, so asking if something is moral or immoral is a matter of opinion to begin with. But I'd say yes it would be immmoral due to the manner they govern.

 

[phattonez]

They could be considered a government in a more traditional sense because they do create and enforce laws, do have justice systems in a sense, exercise a monopoly of power, etc. However morals, as you should know are very very RELATIVE, so asking if something is moral or immoral is a matter of opinion to begin with. But I'd say yes it would be immmoral due to the manner they govern.

So what is it that makes the clear separation between drug cartels and the government? Is it the representation, a bill of rights? What is it that justifies the action of the government?

 

[Wiseone]

This is the pizza analogy again. If a thief comes to my house, steals money, buys 500 pizzas and leaves them at my door, does the fact that I eat some make his action moral?

Stop with the bull**** analogies. You have in your life REQUESTED government services. You owe money for it, its a service you asked for so you are morally obligated to pay for it. So in your Bull**** analogies, you ORDERED the pizza than ATE IT, THEN asked the delivery man why you expect you to pay for it.

 

[phattonez]

Stop with the bull**** analogies. You have in your life REQUESTED government services. You owe money for it, its a service you asked for so you are morally obligated to pay for it. So in your Bull**** analogies, you ORDERED the pizza than ATE IT, THEN asked the delivery man why you expect you to pay for it.

When I order the pizza I agree to pay. I never agreed to being taxed.

If a guy comes to my house (yes, another analogy that you so love) and paints my house, do I owe him money? There was no previous consent on my part to the action, so do I owe him anything because he did it for me?

 

[Wiseone]

So what is it that makes the clear separation between drug cartels and the government? Is it the representation, a bill of rights? What is it that justifies the action of the government?

Its my perspective and the prespective of every single American besides you probably, that our form of government is better. Thats the difference.

 

[Wiseone]

When I order the pizza I agree to pay. I never agreed to being taxed.

How else are you going to pay for the tax payer funded services you use?

 

[phattonez]

How else are you going to pay for the tax payer funded services you use?

This question does not conern the morality of taxation.

 

[phattonez]

Its my perspective and the prespective of every single American besides you probably, that our form of government is better. Thats the difference.

General consent? So a tribe somewhere in Africa is totally justified in killing one of its members because there is general consent, even if the person doesn't want to die?

I know, you hate analogies, but how else can we argue the actual issue while avoiding the government mystique that so permeates most people?

 

[Ahlevah]

The concept of private property is a creation of government.

No, the legal framework for enforcing a right to property is a creation of government. People obtain a property interest in something when they impart labor to it. That would be true whether government existed or not.

 

[Wiseone]

This question does not conern the morality of taxation.

Yes it does, because both governments and business reserve the right to define how they are paid for services rendered. When you purchase a car the business wants to be paid in US dollars, but it could if it so choose be paid in cattle or whatever else. You as the consumer have no right to tell that business how you are going to pay for its services or product which you have already TAKEN and CONSUMED. Therefore when the government, the provider of the the services you use every day, says you will be charge via taxes it has every right to.

 

[phattonez]

Yes it does, because both governments and business reserve the right to define how they are paid for services rendered. When you purchase a car the business wants to be paid in US dollars, but it could if it so choose be paid in cattle or whatever else. You as the consumer have no right to tell that business how you are going to pay for its services or product which you have already TAKEN and CONSUMED. Therefore when the government, the provider of the the services you use every day, says you will be charge via taxes it has every right to.

Businesses must get my agreement in order to get paid. The government just takes it from me. Surely you see the difference. The government is not a business.

 

[Wiseone]

General consent? So a tribe somewhere in Africa is totally justified in killing one of its members because there is general consent, even if the person doesn't want to die?

I know, you hate analogies, but how else can we argue the actual issue while avoiding the government mystique that so permeates most people?

From a legal sense yes, from a highly relative morality perspective who knows? Can you not see how relative morality is. Asking about it as if its a point of fact is impossible because its all opinion.

 

[Wiseone]

Businesses must get my agreement in order to get paid. The government just takes it from me. Surely you see the difference. The government is not a business.

You agree to pay once you consume or use a service. Unless you think you can just walk into a store, take something off the shelf, and walk out then claim its not stealing because you never agreed to pay.

 

[samsmart]

I gave another analogy before. If a thief comes onto my house and says that he won't rob me if I move, is that moral?

Are you in an apartment building or a house? Make up your mind, because while you may own a house, you don't own the apartment building.

Likewise, you don't own this country. We have a social contract. And that social contract holds that we pay taxes. You have three recourses available to you.

1) Use legal processes to convince society to change the social contract.
2) Leave the country because you don't want to abide by the social contract, will won't change for you.
3) Refuse to pay the taxes and suffer the legal consequences of it.

That's all there is to it.

 

[phattonez]

From a legal sense yes, from a highly relative morality perspective who knows? Can you not see how relative morality is. Asking about it as if its a point of fact is impossible because its all opinion.

I'm not asking from a legal sense. I want to know whether or not it offends your sense of morality or not.