Tax Rates, Spending, Recessions and the Reagan Myth

[Conservative]

I've explained all of this in my initial post.

What you explained ignored the economic policy that got us out of the recession and what you also continue to ignore is the affects of people having higher take home pay as the result of tax cuts.

 

[Cecil James]

I cannot believe you are so naive and gullible buying what you are told. I do apologize for the mistake, according to BEA we did have a 5% growth in the fourth qtr of 2009 but a little research shows why, cash for clunkers and first time home buyer credits. all led to the current results, revision downward after spending trillions. Kind of like having a sale and then after the sale not having anyone show up. I really suggest you learn the components of GDP and find out where the growth occurred.

GDP Growth percentage

I 2009 -4.9
II 2009 -.7
III 2009 1.6
IV 2009 5.0
I 2010 3.7
II 2010 2.4

The projection was that Obama would have 4% economic growth yearly for the next two years. That isn't going to happen.

So after I showed you a GDP increase, you simply move the goal post. How very conservative of you!

 

[Cecil James]

What you explained ignored the economic policy that got us out of the recession and what you also continue to ignore is the affects of people having higher take home pay as the result of tax cuts.

Wrong

The point is which you continue to ignore is what happens when people get to keep more of what they earn and the reality that tax revenue increased AFTER the Reagan Tax cuts and in fact doubled.

People in the middle/lower brackets spend it and it goes to grow GDP. People in the upper brackets are likely to store it away. Taxing this money increase revenues. The effects of them not keeping it and having to pay in taxes results in higher revenues than what they'd pay were they to keep more of it.

How can that happen and how can tax cuts that double revenue cause deficits?

This can happen when they revenue being "doubled" is abysmal revenue we have in a recession (as opposed to the revenue from an economy that's at full capacity, which was increased further under Clinton and resulted in a projected surplus).

 

[Conservative]

So after I showed you a GDP increase, you simply move the goal post. How very conservative of you!

I didn't promise 4% yearly growth, Obama's economic team did. The only one moving the goal post is you and other liberals as you divert from the value of tax cuts to the American taxpayer tax home pay as well as always looking for that gotcha moment. The Obama record speaks for itself and the American people are rejecting it for what it is, massive redistribution of wealth.

 

[Conservative]

Wrong

The point is which you continue to ignore is what happens when people get to keep more of what they earn and the reality that tax revenue increased AFTER the Reagan Tax cuts and in fact doubled.

People in the middle/lower brackets spend it and it goes to grow GDP. People in the upper brackets are likely to store it away. Taxing this money increase revenues. The effects of them not keeping it and having to pay in taxes results in higher revenues than what they'd pay were they to keep more of it.

How can that happen and how can tax cuts that double revenue cause deficits?

This can happen when they revenue being "doubled" is abysmal revenue we have in a recession (as opposed to the revenue from an economy that's at full capacity, which was increased further under Clinton and resulted in a projected surplus).

Nice diversion, tax rate cuts doubling govt. income tax revenue? 25%? LOL, you certainly have a problem admitting when wrong. You don't seem to have a problem giving Clinton credit for govt. revenue growth but not Reagan? Interesting and typical. What economic policy led to that economic improvement in both administrations?

 

[Cecil James]

Nice diversion, tax rate cuts doubling govt. income tax revenue? 25%? LOL, you certainly have a problem admitting when wrong. You don't seem to have a problem giving Clinton credit for govt. revenue growth but not Reagan? Interesting and typical. What economic policy led to that economic improvement in both administrations?

Recession. Recovery. Business Cycle...tax revenues increase because people are working again. Reagan's increase = back to normal business cycle. Clinton increase = beyond normal business cycle -- actual productivity growth. See charts for easy understanding.

 

[Cecil James]

I didn't promise 4% yearly growth, Obama's economic team did. The only one moving the goal post is you and other liberals as you divert from the value of tax cuts to the American taxpayer tax home pay as well as always looking for that gotcha moment. The Obama record speaks for itself and the American people are rejecting it for what it is, massive redistribution of wealth.

Well so far GDP has grown over 5% so I have little to worry...just 3% more to go =)

 

[Conservative]

Recession. Recovery. Business Cycle...tax revenues increase because people are working again. Reagan's increase = back to normal business cycle. Clinton increase = beyond normal business cycle -- actual productivity growth. See charts for easy understanding.

So let's see if I have this correct, businesses hire people without a demand for their goods and services? Is that how you worked? It is easy to understand that you don't understand human behavior and the affects of taxes on tax home pay. You don't know the components of GDP nor how business are even formed. Slightly liberal? LOL

 

[Conservative]

Well so far GDP has grown over 5% so I have little to worry...just 3% more to go =)

One quarter due to cash for clunkers and the first time home owner credit. How much debt did those programs generate? Apparently the downward revision to the last qtr escaped you as did the increase in first time unemployed announced today. This economy is booming and we have Obama to credit.

 

[Cecil James]

So let's see if I have this correct, businesses hire people without a demand for their goods and services? Is that how you worked? It is easy to understand that you don't understand human behavior and the affects of taxes on tax home pay. You don't know the components of GDP nor how business are even formed. Slightly liberal? LOL

Definitions of business cycle on the Web:

recurring fluctuations in economic activity consisting of recession and recovery and growth and decline
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
The term business cycle (or economic cycle) refers to economy-wide fluctuations in production or economic activity over several months or years. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle
The pattern followed by macroeconomic variables, such as GDP and unemployment that rise and fall irregularly over time, relative to trend. There is some tendency for cyclical movements of large countries to cause similar movements in other countries with whom they trade.
www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/b.html
An irregular but recurring period of indeterminate scope and origin embracing expansion, prosperity, recession, and recovery. (See also Economic Clock).
Glossary - moneymanager.com.au
Repetitive cycles of economic expansion and recession within an industry over a measurable period of time. Companies regularly experience recurring periods of profitability and poor cash flow often the result of annual fluctuations in economic activity due to seasonal variations or holiday periods.
Smallbusinessdictionary.com - A Small Business Dictionary of Business Planning Terms: Part of the SMBTN™ Network
The rise and fall of economic activity relative to the long term growth trend of the economy.
Glossary - B
upward and downward fluctuations in business activity through the states of expansion, recession, depression, and revival.
Real Estate Dictionary - B
A trend of commerce, with periods of prosperity and recession.
doe.sd.gov/contentstandards/social/docs/SS_Glossery05-15-06.rtf
The period between peaks or troughs of macroeconomic activity.
203.34.60.68/Glossary/text_only.asp
The succession of periods of recession and recovery. Economic activity tends to fluctuate: periods when real gross domestic product (GDP) is falling are called recessions; periods when real GDP is rising are called recoveries (expansion).
MSC | Learning Centre - Glossary of Financial Planning Terms
The recurring rise and fall of markets as they pass through expansion and contraction, as measured by changes in the gross national product (GNP). Traditionally, business cycles have lasted for about 30 months.
McGee Financial Strategies, Inc. - news & resources - Glossary
A recurring pattern of expansion and contraction in the economy. The average cycle is three to four years.
Mergers and Acquisitions : GLossary
the rise and fall of real GDP over time.
www.valdosta.edu/~sltori/ECO 3750/Unit1BasicMacroeconomicTerminology.doc

 

[Cecil James]

One quarter due to cash for clunkers and the first time home owner credit. How much debt did those programs generate? Apparently the downward revision to the last qtr escaped you as did the increase in first time unemployed announced today. This economy is booming and we have Obama to credit.

Like I said. At this point in Reagan's Presidency things were far worse. And the economy he inherited wasn't as bad as the one Obama was given.

 

[Conservative]

Definitions of business cycle on the Web:

recurring fluctuations in economic activity consisting of recession and recovery and growth and decline
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
The term business cycle (or economic cycle) refers to economy-wide fluctuations in production or economic activity over several months or years. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle
The pattern followed by macroeconomic variables, such as GDP and unemployment that rise and fall irregularly over time, relative to trend. There is some tendency for cyclical movements of large countries to cause similar movements in other countries with whom they trade.
www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/b.html
An irregular but recurring period of indeterminate scope and origin embracing expansion, prosperity, recession, and recovery. (See also Economic Clock).
Glossary - moneymanager.com.au
Repetitive cycles of economic expansion and recession within an industry over a measurable period of time. Companies regularly experience recurring periods of profitability and poor cash flow often the result of annual fluctuations in economic activity due to seasonal variations or holiday periods.
Smallbusinessdictionary.com - A Small Business Dictionary of Business Planning Terms: Part of the SMBTN™ Network
The rise and fall of economic activity relative to the long term growth trend of the economy.
Glossary - B
upward and downward fluctuations in business activity through the states of expansion, recession, depression, and revival.
Real Estate Dictionary - B
A trend of commerce, with periods of prosperity and recession.
doe.sd.gov/contentstandards/social/docs/SS_Glossery05-15-06.rtf
The period between peaks or troughs of macroeconomic activity.
203.34.60.68/Glossary/text_only.asp
The succession of periods of recession and recovery. Economic activity tends to fluctuate: periods when real gross domestic product (GDP) is falling are called recessions; periods when real GDP is rising are called recoveries (expansion).
MSC | Learning Centre - Glossary of Financial Planning Terms
The recurring rise and fall of markets as they pass through expansion and contraction, as measured by changes in the gross national product (GNP). Traditionally, business cycles have lasted for about 30 months.
McGee Financial Strategies, Inc. - news & resources - Glossary
A recurring pattern of expansion and contraction in the economy. The average cycle is three to four years.
Mergers and Acquisitions : GLossary
the rise and fall of real GDP over time.
www.valdosta.edu/~sltori/ECO 3750/Unit1BasicMacroeconomicTerminology.doc

Thanks, but book smarts and street smarts don't always go hand in hand. Tell me that tax policy doesn't have an affect on the business cycle? Do some book research and find the components of GDP then tell how those components are affected by tax policy?

 

[Conservative]

Like I said. At this point in Reagan's Presidency things were far worse. And the economy he inherited wasn't as bad as the one Obama was given.

There is quite a difference between approach and handling of the economy. I posted a YouTube video that shows the stark differences. You of course ignored those differences. Reagan believed in the American people whereas Obama never talks about Americas greatness only the problems we have created throughout the world. Obama believes in the American govt. and a greater role for that govt. Sounds like you agree with Obama. We are going to find out in a few months if the majority in this country agree with you or me.

I have a serious problem with having the convince people the benefit of keeping more of your money. I really don't care what you make or anyone else. I have no class envy nor do I care what a CEO makes. I understand that our economy isn't a zero sum game and no payments to a CEO affect my income whatsoever but I do understand the affects a far leftwing President has on personal income and ALL Americans.

 

[Cecil James]

There is quite a difference between approach and handling of the economy. I posted a YouTube video that shows the stark differences. You of course ignored those differences. Reagan believed in the American people whereas Obama never talks about Americas greatness only the problems we have created throughout the world. Obama believes in the American govt. and a greater role for that govt. Sounds like you agree with Obama. We are going to find out in a few months if the majority in this country agree with you or me.

I have a serious problem with having the convince people the benefit of keeping more of your money. I really don't care what you make or anyone else. I have no class envy nor do I care what a CEO makes. I understand that our economy isn't a zero sum game and no payments to a CEO affect my income whatsoever but I do understand the affects a far leftwing President has on personal income and ALL Americans.

Obama does talk about America's greatness, and has been doing so since his very first spot in the limelight.

YouTube - Barack Obama Speech at 2004 DNC Convention

 

[Cecil James]

Thanks, but book smarts and street smarts don't always go hand in hand. Tell me that tax policy doesn't have an affect on the business cycle? Do some book research and find the components of GDP then tell how those components are affected by tax policy?

So you learned your economics on the street? This would explain quite a bit. There are many components of GDP and variables that affect numerous outcomes, and taxes are one small variable. This is why I've been able to easily discredit your "lower taxes mean greater revenues" argument.

 

[liblady]

When the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire what does that do to the take home pay of the American taxpayer? What affect will less take home pay have on the American consumer?

the tax cuts won't expire on the average taxpayer.

 

[Conservative]

Obama does talk about America's greatness, and has been doing so since his very first spot in the limelight.

YouTube - Barack Obama Speech at 2004 DNC Convention

LOL, you really this brainwashed or is this an act? Obama was campaiging then and campaigns now. He has no idea how to lead and shows it every day. why do you have such passion for someone who only knows how to place blame, says one thing and does an other, and is never held accountable for his lies? For someone who claims generated a lot of revenue for your employer you sure have disdain for private industry but more importantly for people keeping more of their money. If you are married tell that to your wife and let her know that you are going to send more money to the govt. instead of putting it to better use for the family. See how far that gets you.

Barack Obama came into office with a hope and change message. Problem is the people didn't realize that change meant massive govt. expansion, higher taxes, higher unemployment and higher deficits. The proof of the Obama agenda is in the actions of private industry not in yours or my rhetoric. I understand the affects of more take home pay, apparently you don't. I understand the role incentive plays in growing the economy, you apparently don't. I understand human behavior and the components of GDP, you apparently don't. I reject your statements, I reject Jon Stewart, NY Times, Paul Krugman, and Barack Obama and wonder why such passion for larger govt. and keeping people dependent? Unless you work for the govt. I doubt that hope and change message today means much.

 

[Conservative]

the tax cuts won't expire on the average taxpayer.

Really? And you know that how? My bet is that people running small businesses making around 200,000 a year believe they are average people. How many people do those employ and what happens to them when taxes are raised? Think they will continue to employ people?

 

[Conservative]

So you learned your economics on the street? This would explain quite a bit. There are many components of GDP and variables that affect numerous outcomes, and taxes are one small variable. This is why I've been able to easily discredit your "lower taxes mean greater revenues" argument.

You discredit nothing because the link I gave you shows govt. revenue going up after the Reagan 25% tax cut. I learned economics in college, but I learned business in real life. I leared the value of hard work, dedication, risk taking. I learned about employees and human behavior in real life not from a textbook. Both served me quite well.

You obviously don't know the components of GDP because if you did you would know that consumer spending is the major component and contributes almost 2/3 to the GDP. That is reality and the reality is when taxes go up people have less money to spend and the largest component of GDP drops. Less GDP means less economic growth and less demand for goods and services. That means less jobs thus less taxpayers. Pretty simple concept except for a liberal to comprehend since apparently you rely on the govt. for everything you need.

 

[liblady]

Really? And you know that how? My bet is that people running small businesses making around 200,000 a year believe they are average people. How many people do those employ and what happens to them when taxes are raised? Think they will continue to employ people?

well, i might be wrong, but i don't think the average household income is ANYWHERE near 200k. and their increases would be small, certainly not enough to fire employees.

 

[Conservative]

well, i might be wrong, but i don't think the average household income is ANYWHERE near 200k. and their increases would be small, certainly not enough to fire employees.

You do realize that 47% of the households in this country don't pay any Federal Income taxes, right? As for the 200,000 number that takes in a lot of small businesses that hire people. If you don't hire people you have less people paying taxes and less people buying goods and services. I am still waiting for the legislation that will prevent the Bush tax cuts from expiring for those under 200,000? My question is why do you care what someone else makes and why do you want to punish producers for making more income? what do you think the rich do with their money? Compare that to what the govt. does with ours?

 

[Cecil James]

You discredit nothing because the link I gave you shows govt. revenue going up after the Reagan 25% tax cut. I learned economics in college, but I learned business in real life. I leared the value of hard work, dedication, risk taking. I learned about employees and human behavior in real life not from a textbook. Both served me quite well.

You obviously don't know the components of GDP because if you did you would know that consumer spending is the major component and contributes almost 2/3 to the GDP. That is reality and the reality is when taxes go up people have less money to spend and the largest component of GDP drops. Less GDP means less economic growth and less demand for goods and services. That means less jobs thus less taxpayers. Pretty simple concept except for a liberal to comprehend since apparently you rely on the govt. for everything you need.

As I explained that that the increases in tax revenue came about during the recovery from a recession. And in comparison, I showed Clinton's increase which surpassed a mere economic recovery and actually added productions.

" That is reality and the reality is when taxes go up people have less money to spend and the largest component of GDP drops. "

This is more true of lower/middle household incomes because they spend all or almost all of their paycheck. You can repeat your arguments over and over, I'll just repeat my rebuttals each time.

 

[Cecil James]

First you say

Reagan believed in the American people whereas Obama never talks about Americas greatness only the problems we have created throughout the world.

Then I post a video of him talking about America's greatness, and you say;

LOL, you really this brainwashed or is this an act? Obama was campaiging then and campaigns now.

 

[Conservative]

Cecil James;1058915510]As I explained that that the increases in tax revenue came about during the recovery from a recession. And in comparison, I showed Clinton's increase which surpassed a mere economic recovery and actually added productions.

But what you ignored is the question as to what affect taxes have on the business cycle? You simply cannot bring yourself to admit that tax cuts affected the economy positively and helped create the economic growth that brought us out of recession. Tax cuts were the center piece of the Reagan economic plan and the results show govt. revenue doubling, GDP doubling, and 18 million jobs created plus a peace dividend created and left to Bush and Clinton.

" That is reality and the reality is when taxes go up people have less money to spend and the largest component of GDP drops. "

This is more true of lower/middle household incomes because they spend all or almost all of their paycheck. You can repeat your arguments over and over, I'll just repeat my rebuttals each time

What makes you an expert on what others spend their money on? When I look at consumer spending it doesn't separate it between rich, middle class, and lower class. It is a convenient argument for the class envy crowd but the reality is the money is the same color regardless of class and what some else does with their money shouldn't bother you. I haven't found one rich person yet that had any affect on me or my family. Why anyone would penalize someone simply because of what they earn is beyond me. For some reason being rich is a license to steal their money and give it to the govt. to redistribute. That violates the very principles upon which this country was built. Your class envy doesn't help your credibility.

 

[Conservative]

First you say

Reagan believed in the American people whereas Obama never talks about Americas greatness only the problems we have created throughout the world.

Then I post a video of him talking about America's greatness, and you say;

LOL, you really this brainwashed or is this an act? Obama was campaiging then and campaigns now.

Actions speak louder than words and amazing that you had to go back to 2004 to get that video. Why is that? I can give you speech after speech where Reagan touted the greatness of the American people and his actions spoke louder than his words.

Don't know how old you are but I lived and worked during the Reagan years and never did better for myself and my family. too bad some still blame him for poor personal choices and now look for the govt. to bail them out.