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Tax cuts for the wealthy? Is this a bad thing?

Nez Dragon said:
:
...5-6 hours of sleep a day 5 days in a row does that kind of thing to me.

Any more than that is being lazy...LOL

Kelzie said:
The fact that we pay the people that educate our children, arguable one of the most important jobs in the world, a little more than someone flipping burgers is shameful.

Here!! Here!!

Kelzie said:
Say what? Teacher unions are keeping the wages at 20,000?!?!

Nez Dragon said:
That's starting salary though. It gets better later on.

What? All the way to $55,000 after 30 years!! I'm just guessing, but I would bet that you would be expecting just a little bit more for your college degree. Fortunately, most teachers do it because they think it is a respectable and rewarding profession. That is true, but many have to quit and seek work elsewhere so that they can earn a living wage.
 
yum,

yet another issue to chew on dealing horrors of kelzie killing our capitalist spirit.

Ah, this makes my day complete !

you knew I'd get here some time didn't you? :2razz:


I agree heavily with kelzie (I hear hell is freezing over) when it comes to teachers wages

Two solutions

A. increase taxes (yes, coming from a capitalist) so we can pay them much better and break up unions that cause problems and get rid of teacher back bone

B. Privatize all schooling


the idea of being a teacher is invalubale to society, even I recongize that (even though i curse public schools up the wazoo)
 
Kelzie said:
Wait you mean like becoming a teacher and teaching the future? Or a nurse and aiding the sick? No, no...I'm pretty sure that contributing to society isn't high on the capitalist list...
It's called a free market.

Kelzie said:
And college education is out of reach to many people for many reasons. So they are forced to take a low paying job that can't support their family.
Like Bill Gates? Or Richard Branson, who dropped out of high school?

galenrox said:
The current minimum wage may have had that effect when it was put into place, but I cannot imagine a market in the United States that the equilibrium price for 1 hour of labor is less than $5.15.
I can. There are a lot of people out there with McJobs that aren't qualified to be there. Buy a hamburger for $4.87, give the cashier a $5 bill, throw down another 12 cents, and watch what happens. If the cashier is a product of our public school system, there is a very good chance that he or she will have to call the supervisor.

128shot said:
Two solutions

A. increase taxes (yes, coming from a capitalist) so we can pay them much better and break up unions that cause problems and get rid of teacher back bone

B. Privatize all schooling
I vote for vouchers. Agreed that good teachers are worth their weight in gold, but the NEA takes the approach that all teachers are equal as long as they pay their union dues.
 
galenrox said:
You're a christian though, right?
If so, then yes, you do have to be for the poor. If you really look into the Gospels, you'll see that Jesus was for all practical purposes a socialist. All for gospels are filled with messages that the way we treat the poor or the weak or the wretched is how we are viewed in God's eyes, so if you don't give a **** about the poor, God takes that as you not giving a **** about him, since his message on the subject is VERY clear.

The bible says to give up your possesions to the poor and to take care of them. Well, the welfare program is supposed to help them get back on their feet and then they can take care of themselves, but no! Liberals don't want them back on their feet, they want them to have to stay on welfare, so they can get more freakin votes! Democrat politicians say "ya we care about the poor" but do nothing to really help them in the long run. I have no sypathy for Americans, but have sympathy for third world countries.
 
satanloveslibs said:
The bible says to give up your possesions to the poor and to take care of them. Well, the welfare program is supposed to help them get back on their feet and then they can take care of themselves, but no! Liberals don't want them back on their feet, they want them to have to stay on welfare, so they can get more freakin votes! Democrat politicians say "ya we care about the poor" but do nothing to really help them in the long run. I have no sypathy for Americans, but have sympathy for third world countries.

Agreed. Why are we giving money to people? We should be teaching them how to work so they can make a living for themselves. Teach a man to fish...

I vote for vouchers. Agreed that good teachers are worth their weight in gold, but the NEA takes the approach that all teachers are equal as long as they pay their union dues.

Hahahaha... Quite true. While public school test scores go down the drain, they say "well we're doing a good job!!!!!"

I think we should be allowed to choose what school we want to go to. My public high school sucks, so I go to a private school. Case closed.
 
So let me get your logic on this straight. Public education isn't in great shape, so we need to take away their funding.

Seeing as to how theyre taking in enough money to run decently, yes! Maybe if we threaten to cut off support, they will shape up.
 
satanloveslibs said:
The bible says to give up your possesions to the poor and to take care of them. Well, the welfare program is supposed to help them get back on their feet and then they can take care of themselves, but no! Liberals don't want them back on their feet, they want them to have to stay on welfare, so they can get more freakin votes! Democrat politicians say "ya we care about the poor" but do nothing to really help them in the long run. I have no sypathy for Americans, but have sympathy for third world countries.

You're kidding right? Find me one liberal, just one, that says their goal is to make sure people stay on welfare. Where did you come up with that?
 
Wouldn't the most viable solution to increasing education is to give backbone back to teachers?

I know this has become a problem in many places, where teachers aloud to rule over the classroom because they deem it too "harsh" to punish someone

Thats one way of getting things running smoother, isn't it?
 
128shot said:
Wouldn't the most viable solution to increasing education is to give backbone back to teachers?

I know this has become a problem in many places, where teachers aloud to rule over the classroom because they deem it too "harsh" to punish someone

Thats one way of getting things running smoother, isn't it?

Hit the nail on the head there. We also need to get back the one thing that is now f***ing up education due to its absence: Competition.

The lack of competition in an academic environment is appalling. What the hell are we teaching our kids when we have these self-esteem hypes who think that red pens hurt kids self esteem.

And this is actually happening. In California, the education establishment has outlawed the use of red pens because "it's too harsh a color". Instead the teachers grade papers with lavender pens, so that kids dont feel bad when they get an F.

Tag is being banned in lots of schools. The reason? The principal of Franklin Elementary School in Santa Monica, California, sent a newsletter in May 2002 to parents saying tag was no longer allowed during recess, going on to say, "The running part of this activity is healthy and encouraged; however, in this game, there is a 'victim' or 'It,' which creates a self-esteem issue."

Dodgeball is on the sports blacklist. School districts in Texas, Maryland, New York, and Virginia "have banned, limited, or discouraged" dodgeball. "Anytime you throw an object at somebody," said an elementary school coach in Cambridge, Mass., "it creates an environment of retaliation and resentment." Coaches who permit children to play dodgeball "should be fired immediately," according to the physical education chairman at Central High School in Naperville, Illinois.
When I played dodgeball in grade school, I wasn't very good at throwing or catching balls. However, I was fairly good at not getting hit. I used that to my advantage. Despite the fact that I wasn't a good thrower, I still loved the game. There are weak and strong in this world, and dodgeball is a good opporitunity to find your strengths and weaknesses, and how to use them. To take it away is simply idiotic.

Progressive educators go even further. The movement against supposedly "stressful" games gained momentum after the publication of an article by Neil Williams, who is a professor of phys. ed. at Eastern Connecticut State College. The article was written in a journal sponsored by the National Association for Sports and Physical Education, who represents eighteen thousand gym teachers and phys. ed professors. Williams consigned games like Red Rover, relay races, and musical chairs to the "Hall of Shame." How could this be? Because the games are based on removing the weakest links. Supposedly this undercuts children's emotional development and erodes their self-esteem.
A follow up article has Williams pointing to a "sinister aspect" of Simon Says. "The major problem," he says, "is that the teacher is doing his or her best to deceive and entrap students." He claims that psychologically, this game is like teachers demonstrating the harms of electricity to kids "by jolting them with an electric current if they touch the wrong button."

See now, the new theraputic approach puts out competition in favor of a gentle and nurturing climate of cooperation. Kind of like the UN...

The new, nonthreatening alternative to tag (provided by a K-3 government financed antibullying curriculum guide called Quit It!) is "Circle of Friends: where "nobody is ever 'out.'" If students become too hyper or even (God forbid) angry while 'playing' Circle of Friends, it is recommended in the guide to use stress-relieving activities to "help the transition from active play to focused work."
The guide is not satire. It is not intended solely for emotionally disturbed children. It is intended for normal 5-7 year olds in our nation's schools.

Another interesting story is one with a Diane Ravitch, author of The Language Police. In 1997, Bill Clinton appointed her to an honorary education committee that was developing national achievement tests. The Department of Education awarded a multi-million dollar contract to Riverside Publishing to compose the exam.
Ravitch and her fellow committee members (mostly veteran teachers) were sent several sample reading sections. The committe selected the ones to be the most engaging and appropriate for fourth-grade test takers. Apparently some of the sections went MIA when they hit the Riverside censors.
Two of the selections that got high marks from Ravitch and the committee were about peanuts. Readers learned that they were a healthy snack and had first been cultivated by South American Indians, then Europe after the Spanish conquest. It explains how the nuts became important in the United States. It also told about George Washington Carver, the black inventor and scientists, who found many new uses for peanuts.
The censors went crazy. First, they said, peanuts are not a healthy snack for all children. Some are allergic! According to Ravitch, "The reviewers apparently assumed that a fourth-grader who was allergic to peanuts might get distracted if he/she encountered a test question dealing with peanuts!!!
They went on to complain about the Spaniards having "defeated" the South Americans. Perhaps they thought that some child of South American Indian descent who came upon this reading would be hurt in some way, and suffer disadvantages in taking the test.
Another story was about a decaying tree stump on the forest floor, and how it attracts a vast variety of plants, animals, insects, and birds. The passage compared the stump to a bustling apartment complex. The committee liked its charm and verve. It also taught kids some fascinating ecology. However, the twenty sensitivity censors were unanimously opposed to it. Why? Because "Youngsters who have grown up in a housing projecy may be distracted by similarities to their own living conditions. An emotional response may be triggered."
:screwy

I can't bring myself to say anything postable, besides the fact that yes, this is all completely true. I got it from a very good book, which I recommend to all. It is a good indication of the kind of crap floating around today.
 
galenrox said:
That is true, but there is an important distinction you're failing to make. For a free market economy to exist and maintain, people need to understand what is going on, and what they're spending their money on, and what spending their money where they spend it means.
There is an important point that you are missing: people need, and deserve, to have alternatives. Our social commitment in this country is to provide a "free" basic education for all, and the monolithic public school system is not delivering on that commitment. You don't need an advanced education to know that your children will benefit from one, but the people - particularly the parents of inner city students - are denied any alternatives. Vouchers would solve the problem, allowing the parents to transfer their children to schools where they can actually learn something.

Your perspective on free market economics is very rooted in the past and completely ignoring the teachings of John Nash, one of the most respected and universally acknowledged economists in the 20th century.
Not at all. Most of us plan on being around for a while longer, and know better than to eat our seed corn or otherwise contaminate our future prospects.

So yes, in the current state of things, we seem to not value teachers very much.
Union rules don't allow us to pay the good teachers better than poor teachers. Many are overpaid, some are underpaid, but on average we get about what we pay for (except for the administrative overhead).

Just cause we have an economy that somewhat resembles a free market doesn't mean corrections don't need to be made, but instead we have a lot more responsibility to make these corrections, because if we don't do it, the government will, which detracts from the free market nature of our economy.
It already has, and that's a big part of the problem.

Are you ready to claim that most high school dropouts end up like Bill Gates or Richard Branson?
Not at all. But people like Gates, Branson and Michael Dell do illustrate that education does not equate to schooling.

So let me get your logic on this straight. Public education isn't in great shape, so we need to take away their funding. Brilliant, you should run for president, it worked for Bush.
Taking away their funding would be as bad as continually throwing more money at a failed system. The solution is to make the funding more effective than it is now, and that requires breaking the monopoly lock that the teachers unions have on the system.
 
Nez Dragon said:
Hahahaha... Quite true. While public school test scores go down the drain, they say "well we're doing a good job!!!!!"
Agreed. When my oldest granddaughter was about to start school, her mother decided she'd better check out the local PTA to see how the land lay. One of the parents in the audience raised a question about the books in the library, and the school librarian responded "But it's our JOB to protect the children from your prejudices!" Such appallingly unmitigated arrogance can only exist in a monopoly situation where there is no concern whatsoever for the paying customers. That granddaughter and all her siblings have been home schooled ever since. And in that part of the country, there are so many kids being home schooled that they have their own athletic leagues.
 
Diogenes said:
Agreed. When my oldest granddaughter was about to start school, her mother decided she'd better check out the local PTA to see how the land lay. One of the parents in the audience raised a question about the books in the library, and the school librarian responded "But it's our JOB to protect the children from your prejudices!" Such appallingly unmitigated arrogance can only exist in a monopoly situation where there is no concern whatsoever for the paying customers. That granddaughter and all her siblings have been home schooled ever since. And in that part of the country, there are so many kids being home schooled that they have their own athletic leagues.

What was the question? And it kinda is. Unless you think they should have books supporting Nazism in elementary school?
 
Kelzie said:
What was the question? And it kinda is. Unless you think they should have books supporting Nazism in elementary school?
The point is that the response was far too arrogant, and should not be tolerated.

galenrox said:
...the voucher program would pull the plug on the entirity of the public education program.
Not at all. It's still public money (usually about 60% of the per student budget), but it goes with the child. Parents are free to move their children from schools with incompetent teachers and armed guards to schools more conducive to actually learning. As long as the students meet the performance standards for their grade level, why do you care who runs the school?

You're joking, right? You do understand that this whole theory about "every man for himself" economics is rooted in the 1700s.
Now you're the one who's joking, right? Did you actually read what I wrote?

Yeah, and we all know how well paid teachers are, and that they would put up with kids they have no interest in teaching just so they can walk away with their 20 gs a year, and a $400 a month pension.
Some will, if they can't hold down a better job.

Yeah, and that's because people don't give a **** about each other, which is exactly what your proposed solution would prove!
People do care about each other, and that's why we have a popular movement toward vouchers in order to break the lock the special interest groups (like the NEA) have on the system.

Yeah, and people winning the lottery is proof that one person out of MILLIONS wins the lottery, it ****ing happens, but not to the VAST VAST majority of people. They were both geniuses, most people aren't that ****ing smart and that ****ing lucky.

You talk about the education system as if it's a conceded fact that it is failed. I don't believe you, and I know the public education system first hand, so prove it.
I refer you to your previously quoted statement. It proves my point.
 
Kelzie said:
Unless you think they should have books supporting Nazism in elementary school?

Some do. In one of my old schools thay had 2 copies of Mein Kampf. It was also sad how they were put in the nonfiction section.
 
Kelzie said:
What was the question? And it kinda is. Unless you think they should have books supporting Nazism in elementary school?
I don't recall the particular question, but I rather suspect (from the time frame) that it may have been something like Heather Has Two Mommies. Public school support of perversion was a big issue in the northwest at that time.

A few months later, my daughter called to read me a letter to the editor in one of the suburban papers. A mother said her seventh-grade son had brought home a note requesting her permission for him to attend an AIDS prevention class, and detailed what material would be covered. She felt that, at age 12, he was too young for the harsher facts of life but the world was changing and he needed to be prepared. She gritted her teeth, and signed the permission slip. When the kid came home from school after the big day, he was totally embarassed: the scheduled speaker hadn't shown up, and the local gay activist community had sent a substitute speaker who completely ignored the advertised guidelines and gave the class a detailed lesson on how to have oral sex. The mother who wrote the letter was beside herself with rage, and sounded ready to summarily execute anyone in the school system with even a remote connection to the defilement of her child.

I wouldn't allow my children into that public school system either.

galenrox said:
That is a gross misrepresentation of fact. ...(blah, blah, blah)...
The whole point of vouchers is to allow children to get away from bad school systems. Since vouchers are typically only 60% or so of the per-pupil allowance, and the schools are always whining for smaller classes and more space, what's wrong with solving the problem by reducing the class size and space requirement? In the extreme case, the school district would have 40% of their budget left and no children to teach.
 
Nez Dragon said:
Actually I don't watch Fox news.
Nez Dragon said:
And the trickle down effect doesn't work because of high minimum wages. The higher the wage, the fewer jobs the business can afford to have. I would prefer a job at $5.15 an hour than no job at $7.25 (the 2.10 dollar raise is being advocated by, guess who, Ted Kennedy). Teen unemployment is at 16%. According to the Journal of Economic Literature, the rule of thumb is that a 10% hike in the minimum wage leads to a 2% hike in teen unemployment. In the 90's New Jersey raised its minimum wage and suffered a 4.6% loss in jobs in the fast food industry.
An Employment Policies Institute (EPI) study estimates that the new $7.25 minimum wage would add $18.3 billion of costs on small and local businesses with thin profit margins, such as restaurants, hotels, and retail shops. Only 13% of that money would go to poor families.

And by the way, 2005's tax season saw an economic boom.


I would like to see if you can provide one piece of statistical evidence that shows a historical correlation between tax increases on the top bracket and an increase in the unemployment rate, or a raise in the minimum wage and an increase in the unemployment rate.

I say this, because all of the historical data shows the exact opposite. We live in a nation where the vast majority of wealth and income is concentrated at the top. If wealth were not so concentrated, then tax increases and minimum wage hikes probably would have a negative effect on investment and growth, but that is not the case and never has been. We have had strong economic growth in the 50s and 60s when the top rates were over 70%. We had incredible growth in the 90s when tax rates were higher than they are now.
 
I would like to see if you can provide one piece of statistical evidence that shows a historical correlation between tax increases on the top bracket and an increase in the unemployment rate, or a raise in the minimum wage and an increase in the unemployment rate.

I say this, because all of the historical data shows the exact opposite. We live in a nation where the vast majority of wealth and income is concentrated at the top. If wealth were not so concentrated, then tax increases and minimum wage hikes probably would have a negative effect on investment and growth, but that is not the case and never has been. We have had strong economic growth in the 50s and 60s when the top rates were over 70%. We had incredible growth in the 90s when tax rates were higher than they are now.

Empirically, it is not easy to find a relationship between minimum wage increases and the unemployment rate. Ditto for tax hikes. Of course, as you note we had times of great economic expansion in the 50s, 60s and 90s, when tax rates and minimum wage laws were high. But correlation does not prove causation, and statistics can never tell us what really happens in a given period of time. So how do we know whether or not this economic growth was achieved in spite of higher taxes and higher minimum wage? Statisticians will tell you there are so many variables involved in any given situation that isolation is next to impossible.

Because of that, we must rely on logical analysis. Your case is that the reason why minimum wage laws and tax hikes do not harm "growth" is because of wealth concentration. But taxes decrease income and therefore shift the individual supply curves of present goods to the left, causing a higher social rate of time preference. This means less savings that can be invested in production. It does not matter how much wealth is concentrated in how many hands, the same logic applies in any case. And of course, taxes results in less money which can be spent on satisfying consumer wants. This is all taken out of the economy and put in the hands of government officials.

Minimum wage laws are more clear cut. I don't really think I need to go into why a minimum wage law is harmful, since you seem to accept that basic principle. You're only argument is "wealth concentration", which really has no effect on the surplus of labor created by wage floors.
 
It seems to me that a minimum wage would actually INCREASE the concentration of wealth at the top. When people claim that a minimum wage is necessary because workers can't live on $5.15 per hour, they generally seem completely oblivious to the fact that a minimum wage hike will increase the number of people living on $0 per hour.
 
Kandahar said:
It seems to me that a minimum wage would actually INCREASE the concentration of wealth at the top. When people claim that a minimum wage is necessary because workers can't live on $5.15 per hour, they generally seem completely oblivious to the fact that a minimum wage hike will increase the number of people living on $0 per hour.

Show some evidence. When in American history has a minimum wage hike resulted in higher unemployment?

The answer of course is never.
 
Ether said:
Empirically, it is not easy to find a relationship between minimum wage increases and the unemployment rate. Ditto for tax hikes. Of course, as you note we had times of great economic expansion in the 50s, 60s and 90s, when tax rates and minimum wage laws were high. But correlation does not prove causation, and statistics can never tell us what really happens in a given period of time. So how do we know whether or not this economic growth was achieved in spite of higher taxes and higher minimum wage? Statisticians will tell you there are so many variables involved in any given situation that isolation is next to impossible.

Because of that, we must rely on logical analysis. Your case is that the reason why minimum wage laws and tax hikes do not harm "growth" is because of wealth concentration. But taxes decrease income and therefore shift the individual supply curves of present goods to the left, causing a higher social rate of time preference. This means less savings that can be invested in production. It does not matter how much wealth is concentrated in how many hands, the same logic applies in any case. And of course, taxes results in less money which can be spent on satisfying consumer wants. This is all taken out of the economy and put in the hands of government officials.

Minimum wage laws are more clear cut. I don't really think I need to go into why a minimum wage law is harmful, since you seem to accept that basic principle. You're only argument is "wealth concentration", which really has no effect on the surplus of labor created by wage floors.

My point was that there is significant wealth concentrated at the top that the economy expands in spite of minimum wage increases and in some cases higher taxes.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Show some evidence. When in American history has a minimum wage hike resulted in higher unemployment?

The answer of course is never.

The economy (and unemployment) is like a big freighter, and there are lots of little tugboats (like the minimum wage) pulling it in various directions. It's very difficult to find historical evidence to attribute any single policy to higher or lower unemployment.

But let's look at it from a microeconomic perspective. Suppose I own a small store, and the store earns enough money to justify hiring ten workers at $5.15 per hour (even though their labor is probably only worth $3 per hour). If the minimum wage is increased to $7 per hour with no comparable change in my store's income, I'm only making enough money to have seven workers. I'll have to lay off the other three, or come up with the money somewhere else.

Common sense would indicate that this is not limited to my store only, but is a phenomenon that affects EVERYONE who employs unskilled workers. Setting prices at artificially high rates for ANY commodity (such as labor) reduces the demand for that commodity, just like artificially low rates lead to shortages.
 
Kandahar said:
The economy (and unemployment) is like a big freighter, and there are lots of little tugboats (like the minimum wage) pulling it in various directions. It's very difficult to find historical evidence to attribute any single policy to higher or lower unemployment.

But let's look at it from a microeconomic perspective. Suppose I own a small store, and the store earns enough money to justify hiring ten workers at $5.15 per hour (even though their labor is probably only worth $3 per hour). If the minimum wage is increased to $7 per hour with no comparable change in my store's income, I'm only making enough money to have seven workers. I'll have to lay off the other three, or come up with the money somewhere else.

Common sense would indicate that this is not limited to my store only, but is a phenomenon that affects EVERYONE who employs unskilled workers. Setting prices at artificially high rates for ANY commodity (such as labor) reduces the demand for that commodity, just like artificially low rates lead to shortages.

You would have to raise prices is what you would have to do. The only thing that would result in your laying people off is increased production or decreased demand and not needing as many people and you would do that regardless of whether the minimum wage was raised or not.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
My point was that there is significant wealth concentrated at the top that the economy expands in spite of minimum wage increases and in some cases higher taxes.

Ummm, why would wealth concentration matter? Wages are determined by the marginal value product of the factor, not by how much wealth is in the hands of how many people.

You would have to raise prices is what you would have to do. The only thing that would result in your laying people off is increased production or decreased demand and not needing as many people and you would do that regardless of whether the minimum wage was raised or not.

Kandahar gave a good explanation of the effects of the minimum wage, but I think it's inadequate.

First of all, you are repeating the same fallacies of many classical and neoclassical economists. Prices are not determined by costs but by supply and demand schedules. If the existing total demand for a given stock remained the same, and a particular producer raised his price, that would most definitely hurt his business. In the long run, that means reduced revenues and downsizing. Not to mention, higher prices will hurt consumers and eventually hurt other producers (and how will that affect jobs in other industries).

The best explanation of the effects of the minimum wage is to understand that price controls apply to labor as well. Given an existing stock of labor, and a demand for labor according to the discounted marginal value products of the factor, the intersection point of the two curves will result in the equilibrium wage. If the supply curve is artificially floored above a certain point by minimum wage laws, the new intersection point will be further to the left, and the quantity between the old point and the new point will be the "surplus" resulting from an excess of supply over demand. This surplus is called unemployment. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
 
Ether said:
Ummm, why would wealth concentration matter? Wages are determined by the marginal value product of the factor, not by how much wealth is in the hands of how many people.



Kandahar gave a good explanation of the effects of the minimum wage, but I think it's inadequate.

First of all, you are repeating the same fallacies of many classical and neoclassical economists. Prices are not determined by costs but by supply and demand schedules. If the existing total demand for a given stock remained the same, and a particular producer raised his price, that would most definitely hurt his business. In the long run, that means reduced revenues and downsizing. Not to mention, higher prices will hurt consumers and eventually hurt other producers (and how will that affect jobs in other industries).

The best explanation of the effects of the minimum wage is to understand that price controls apply to labor as well. Given an existing stock of labor, and a demand for labor according to the discounted marginal value products of the factor, the intersection point of the two curves will result in the equilibrium wage. If the supply curve is artificially floored above a certain point by minimum wage laws, the new intersection point will be further to the left, and the quantity between the old point and the new point will be the "surplus" resulting from an excess of supply over demand. This surplus is called unemployment. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

First, I never said that costs were the only factor in prices. However, it is a factor. You cannot provide a service or sell a product for less money than it costs you to produce or provide it regardless of how much or little demand there is for the product.

As far as your other arguments go. I used to work for a company that was a corporate headhunting company. For professional or skilled positions, pay rates are largely determined by market. For example, if ASP.Net programmers are highly in demand in a given market, then employers are forced to compete for ASP.Net programmers and salary’s for that position go up. The same is true for pretty much any professional or skilled position. Jobs that pay minimum wage or near minimum wage are not skilled or professional positions. Generally employers do not have to compete with each other to get a dishwasher or a busboy. So that employer will usually (not always some are more generous) pay the least amount of money that they have to pay someone in those positions. The only factor is paying someone enough so that they actually show up for work.

Now, where my concentration of wealth and income argument comes in is here. For example, right now I am painting my home. As anyone knows, painting your home can be a real pain in the ass and an all summer project. Now, say I decide to hire me a couple of day laborers to help me paint my home and say I am a greedy person and just pay them minimum wage even though I could afford to pay them more. They work for me just the same because everyone else is just as greedy as I am (this is just an example, I really am not greedy). Now, say half way through the project, the minimum wage goes up a dollar. In this case, I am probably just going to pay them a dollar more an hour. I still need the labor, and I can more then afford to pay them another dollar an hour. If the minimum wage tripled instead of just rising a buck or two an hour, that would be different. But a small increase is easily absorbed in the end it would just be a little more money for them, and a little less for me. In the end, it might make them more productive to make a little more money.

For many corporations, the problem in labor costs is not people at the bottom being over paid, its people at the top being way over paid. I would argue that since there is no empirical evidence that shows that minimum wage increases resulted in higher unemployment, that it may well be that minimum wage increases only result in slightly more equitable pay in companies.
 
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