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Tax and Spend and Spend and Spend some more

Yep, borrowing from the future can be purportedly justified with different arguments. I am skeptical. If we want to spend for them, let's just be heroes and pay the bill. Now. Borrowing on their account is way too subject to, IDK, just wanting to spend money and not pay taxes and pass the bill onto them.
No one is going to pay the bill. We never paid off our WWII debt either. That is a fallacy. We will be increasing revenue though. It's good for the economy and the middle class to tax the wealthy more. The higher their tax rates they less sense it makes for them to try to keep all the increased profits for themselves.
 
Next easy part (apologies, my brain likes it when I focus on one specific thing at a time), I was assuming that passing debt on to the next generation was selfish. I am very biased that way. But if there is some reasonable argument for why doing so is not just taking from them to spend for us, I'd listen.
On one hand, it can be selfish -- if you are borrowing for superfluous or unjustifiable reasons.

For example, Bush 43 started two very expensive wars and cut taxes and added the Medicare Drug Benefit during his term, and borrowed to pay for it all, because he knew the political penalty would be very high. I find it hard to justify that choice.

In contrast, the federal government very quickly created multiple stimulus packages during both Trump's and Biden's terms to deal with the economic fallout of COVID. I'd view that as justifiable, as much of that money actually flowed back to the federal government as tax revenues, and also by getting people back to work faster increases future tax revenues.


That aside, suggesting that federal debt is a massive burden which cripples the young simply doesn't make sense, for a few reasons.

One is that federal debt is not like a car loan, which must be paid off by a certain date or someone will repo Mount Rushmore. It just gets rolled over.

Another is inflation. Even with 2% inflation, the value of $1 is cut in half in just 20 years. Meaning the burden of today's borrowing actually fades over time.

A third is that it's not like someone is going to walk up to your kids in 2040 and say "your share of the federal debt is $100,000 and you have to pay it right now." If anything, I'd say the biggest burden facing most young people today is student loan debt. They are saddled with quite a bit of that debt because, unlike many other industrialized nations, the government doesn't subsidize post-secondary education (college, university, job training etc).

Along those lines, pretty much everyone today has paid taxes that went to paying off previous debts. Meaning you aren't saddling your kids with a different burden than you're facing right now. The interest payments are less than 10% of my tax bill. I don't feel absolutely crushed by federal debt. Do you?

On a side note: Social Security is explicitly set up so that the current workers pay for the current beneficiaries. It's not a gigantic 401(k), it's a pay-as-you-go system. When you pay your payroll taxes, it doesn't go into a special account with your name on it -- it pays the people who collect SS right now. If you feel bad about an older generation taking from a younger generation, does that mean you want to eliminate Social Security? Or switch it to an Australian-style system?


There is also a purely practical issue, which is that cutting the debt just won't happen, no matter how much anyone screams about it. The only way to deal with this is to increase taxes and cut spending, and no politician wants to do that, and few who want to do it can get away with it.

To wit: Clinton actually managed to produce a surplus, mostly by presiding over a good economy and the Dot Com bubble, along with slightly bumping up taxes. When Bush 43 came into office, with plenty of vocal deficit hawks in Congress, what happened? He didn't even consider retiring some of the debt. He sent checks to Americans; started two wars; cut taxes; added a Medicare benefit; and at the end of his term, a massive recession caused revenues to drop and spending to increase.

If a bunch of elected deficit hawks can't actually use a surplus to pay down the debt, then how is it going to happen?
 
No one is going to pay the bill. We never paid off our WWII debt either. That is a fallacy. We will be increasing revenue though. It's good for the economy and the middle class to tax the wealthy more. The higher their tax rates they less sense it makes for them to try to keep all the increased profits for themselves.
Also a fallacy I think. We pay the interest. A substantial portion of federal revenues are (necessarily) diverted to paying for past borrowing/spending,
 
No one is going to pay the bill. We never paid off our WWII debt either. That is a fallacy. We will be increasing revenue though. It's good for the economy and the middle class to tax the wealthy more. The higher their tax rates they less sense it makes for them to try to keep all the increased profits for themselves.
What WWII debt?
We didn't owe anybody anything many other countries owed us and a LOT of them never paid off their debt ( I will have to look this up but if I remember right I think Finland is the only country to pay off their war debt to the US )
now if you are saying we never paid off our debt, well we had started to in 1946 it was 269 Billion

1947$258103%Cold War
1948$25292%Recession
1949$25393%Recession
1950$25786%Korean War boosted growth and debt
1951$25574%
1952$25971%
1953$26668%Recession when war ended
after this it starts going up but we did pay some of it off before this
1954$27169%Eisenhower's budgets & Recession
1955$27464%
1956$27361%
1957$27157%Recession
1958$27657%

Have a nice afternoon
 
On one hand, it can be selfish -- if you are borrowing for superfluous or unjustifiable reasons.

For example, Bush 43 started two very expensive wars and cut taxes and added the Medicare Drug Benefit during his term, and borrowed to pay for it all, because he knew the political penalty would be very high. I find it hard to justify that choice.

In contrast, the federal government very quickly created multiple stimulus packages during both Trump's and Biden's terms to deal with the economic fallout of COVID. I'd view that as justifiable, as much of that money actually flowed back to the federal government as tax revenues, and also by getting people back to work faster increases future tax revenues.


That aside, suggesting that federal debt is a massive burden which cripples the young simply doesn't make sense, for a few reasons.

One is that federal debt is not like a car loan, which must be paid off by a certain date or someone will repo Mount Rushmore. It just gets rolled over.

Another is inflation. Even with 2% inflation, the value of $1 is cut in half in just 20 years. Meaning the burden of today's borrowing actually fades over time.

A third is that it's not like someone is going to walk up to your kids in 2040 and say "your share of the federal debt is $100,000 and you have to pay it right now." If anything, I'd say the biggest burden facing most young people today is student loan debt. They are saddled with quite a bit of that debt because, unlike many other industrialized nations, the government doesn't subsidize post-secondary education (college, university, job training etc).

Along those lines, pretty much everyone today has paid taxes that went to paying off previous debts. Meaning you aren't saddling your kids with a different burden than you're facing right now. The interest payments are less than 10% of my tax bill. I don't feel absolutely crushed by federal debt. Do you?

On a side note: Social Security is explicitly set up so that the current workers pay for the current beneficiaries. It's not a gigantic 401(k), it's a pay-as-you-go system. When you pay your payroll taxes, it doesn't go into a special account with your name on it -- it pays the people who collect SS right now. If you feel bad about an older generation taking from a younger generation, does that mean you want to eliminate Social Security? Or switch it to an Australian-style system?


There is also a purely practical issue, which is that cutting the debt just won't happen, no matter how much anyone screams about it. The only way to deal with this is to increase taxes and cut spending, and no politician wants to do that, and few who want to do it can get away with it.

To wit: Clinton actually managed to produce a surplus, mostly by presiding over a good economy and the Dot Com bubble, along with slightly bumping up taxes. When Bush 43 came into office, with plenty of vocal deficit hawks in Congress, what happened? He didn't even consider retiring some of the debt. He sent checks to Americans; started two wars; cut taxes; added a Medicare benefit; and at the end of his term, a massive recession caused revenues to drop and spending to increase.

If a bunch of elected deficit hawks can't actually use a surplus to pay down the debt, then how is it going to happen?
I'm not actually sure we disagree. my view of how things should be handled in a (politics-free) vacuum is largely a hypothetical.
 
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Biden is considering a major federal tax increase for the first time in nearly 30 years, report says


The tax hikes are not nearly as alarming as the "next big economic package." WHY do we need another "big economic package??" Thanks!!
Hi, we just won an election. I'm sorry you lost. Yes, it's time to spend. That's what he ran on.
 
Also a fallacy I think. We pay the interest. A substantial portion of federal revenues are (necessarily) diverted to paying for past borrowing/spending,
Oh well. Inflation will degrade that too. Our debt goes down by 2% a year if the Fed hits their inflation targets. There is no time like the present to prepare for the future.
 
Oh well. Inflation will degrade that too. Our debt goes down by 2% a year if the Fed hits their inflation targets. There is no time like the present to prepare for the future.
Don't agree. Interest is not a fixed amount that goes down with inflation. Literally, a substantial portion of our tax dollars go to pay off prior spending no one paid for. I find that unacceptable. As a starting point, each generation should pay their bills, not run up their kids' credit cards.
 
Hi, we just won an election. I'm sorry you lost. Yes, it's time to spend. That's what he ran on.
Slight correctiion, we always spend. But it's time to pay for some of the constant spending.
 
Don't agree. Interest is not a fixed amount that goes down with inflation. Literally, a substantial portion of our tax dollars go to pay off prior spending no one paid for. I find that unacceptable. As a starting point, each generation should pay their bills, not run up their kids' credit cards.
So suddenly now, after decades of coddling the wealthy on the credit card, we need to pay our bills when it comes to investments in our grandchildren's future? Sorry but that makes no sense. Better to let the wealthy foot more of the bill. It is the least they can do.
 
On one hand, it can be selfish -- if you are borrowing for superfluous or unjustifiable reasons.

For example, Bush 43 started two very expensive wars and cut taxes and added the Medicare Drug Benefit during his term, and borrowed to pay for it all, because he knew the political penalty would be very high. I find it hard to justify that choice.

Exactly my favorite example. W started by campaigning on how if we couldn't cut taxes during a booming economy, then when could we? Then, when the economy tanked, his message changed to asking if we couldn't cut taxes during a recession, then when could we? He made it abundantly clear to me that Rs never want to pay the bills (nor do Ds, but that's a different thread).
 
So suddenly now, after decades of coddling the wealthy on the credit card, we need to pay our bills when it comes to investments in our grandchildren's future? Sorry but that makes no sense. Better to let the wealthy foot more of the bill. It is the least they can do.

We're talking personal opinions here. I don't think we should EVER have skipped paying our bills. If the choice is between deficit spending and taxing the rich, the poor, or anyone else, I think we should tax. In short, I think we should pay for our current spending and then have a legitimate debate over who pays, not pass our current spending onto the future. No matter how the fight comes out (rich, poor, whatever), that is more responsible than just borrowing from the future.
 
So suddenly now, after decades of coddling the wealthy on the credit card, we need to pay our bills when it comes to investments in our grandchildren's future? Sorry but that makes no sense. Better to let the wealthy foot more of the bill. It is the least they can do.
And specifically in response to this, I'm not here to justify decades of coddling the wealthy. That was stupid and I opposed it at the time and I oppose it now.
 
And specifically in response to this, I'm not here to justify decades of coddling the wealthy. That was stupid and I opposed it at the time and I oppose it now.
Then why is the time to pay things back when the spending is for the majority of Americans for a change? Spending on things that will actually grow the GDP and expand revenues should be a no brainer. The middle class is due for a break.
 
Then why is the time to pay things back when the spending is for the majority of Americans for a change?
Fair. I think that it is *always* the time to take your lumps and make things right. The real time was decades ago, but Americans were too lazy. Now is better than later. Spend the money, and PAY THE ****ING TAXES instead of borrowing.
 
Fair. I think that it is *always* the time to take your lumps and make things right. The real time was decades ago, but Americans were too lazy. Now is better than later. Spend the money, and PAY THE ****ING TAXES instead of borrowing.
It's too late for that I'm afraid. The people are restless and want something done now. We can't let the insurrectionists win can we? I'm confident it will help so keep an open mind. We need something big to move the needle in the right direction.
 
Too late to wait another generation to prepare for the future and boost our middle class. The one term mistake was a wake up call.
But do what you want to do, why not tax now? Why is borrowing a key component?
 
Yep, I know I'm crazy, but just do the tax hike IMO. I'll pay my share. Stop borrowing and just pay for what you spend.
Employing more people in good jobs will also increase revenue. This system when nearly 50% of us don't make enough to afford taxes has got to change too. A rising tide lifts all boats and that is what Biden wants. I understand your worries but remember that the Govt. is not a household or a private business and does not have the same rules.
 
I would think the money 384,000,000,000 ( seems like too many zeros that is 384 Trillion )would have come out of the 2.7 Trillion the Federal gov ( debt ) owes the SS system
where did you get these numbers again?
Have a nice afternoon
That's 384 Billion, 9 zeros, Trillion would have 12 zeros.
The numbers came from the Pie chart in post #308, and www.ssa.gov but items #5 (interest paid on debt) and #6 (principle repaid on debt) at the top are both costs related to past spending, a total of $759,000,000,000 ($759 Billion) which in this case is 33.88% of the total collected revenue being spent on debt principle and interest ($759,000,000,000 ÷ $2,240,000,000,000) which leaves $1,481,000,000,000 to be applied to current spending, items #1 through #4 at the top which total $2,388,000,000,000 ($2.388 Trillion).

When inflation is averaging 2% per year and banks are paying less than 2% interest on savings accounts, and the interest earned is taxable, are you gaining or losing?

Changes are not going to happen unless a large enough number of ordinary citizens begin to demand changes, and it was my hopes that political forums might be a good place to initiate discussion on how to accomplish needed changes without letting political leaning derail the process. I have no problem using the current system for my benefit, but I worry that my children and their children might not, and it's quite obvious that a large and growing number of others are finding it difficult to benefit from what exists today.
 
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