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Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother? (1 Viewer)

blastula

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2585102&page=1
ABC News: Judge Dismisses Charges Against Woman Who Killed Her Unborn Child
On the morning she was scheduled to give birth, a 22-year-old Virginia woman shot herself in the belly, killing the fetus in an act of self-abortion. She was acquitted on charges of carrying out an illegal abortion.
Is Skinner a criminal?
As complex as the question may be, the answer could come down to one word: "any."
Skinner's self-abortion took place well into her third trimester. Without special medical circumstances, terminating a pregnancy at that stage is considered illegal.
In Virginia law, if an abortion is deemed illegal, Statute 18.2-71 — the hotly contested statute involved in this case — makes a criminal out of "any person [to] administer to, or cause … any drug or other thing" with intent to destroy an unborn child.
Martingayle, the defense attorney, argued that there was nothing to contest. The meaning of the statute was crystal clear.
He said that "any person" meant anyone other than the mother, who is protected by the principal of expectant mother immunity.
Martingayle cites a 1997 Florida case in which a teenage mother shot her womb, effectively giving herself an abortion.
The woman in that case, State vs. Ashley, was acquitted, as was the mother in a similar 1998 case in Georgia.
On the other hand, the prosecution argues, that "any person" means all persons. The law applies to everyone, including a woman giving herself the abortion.
"Courts are bound by the plain meaning of that language. … 'Any' is an indefinite word and includes 'all' unless restricted," Virginia prosecutor James Wise wrote in court documents.

Questions:
1. Did the Virginian woman commit a crime?
2. Did the judge extend beyond the plain meaning of the words "Any person" in his interpretation of the law?
3. Should the woman give birth and then put the child up for adoption rather than shooting the unborn who is about to be born as the only choice?
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

blastula said:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2585102&page=1
ABC News: Judge Dismisses Charges Against Woman Who Killed Her Unborn Child



Questions:
1. Did the Virginian woman commit a crime?
2. Did the judge extend beyond the plain meaning of the words "Any person" in his interpretation of the law?
3. Should the woman give birth and then put the child up for adoption rather than shooting the unborn who is about to be born as the only choice?

The woman is a hysterical selfish lunatic who waited till the day her baby was to be born to shoot it. However our society embraces the idea of mothers killing their babies. In fact apparently it's a right. So she's not in trouble cause even though killing is wrong we are living in a cultural haze that refuses to judge women for their irresponsibility when it comes to reproduction and killing their offspring regardless of how heinous the scenarios get.

In a day of condoms, birth control, and over the counter MAP's there is absolutely no excuse for what this insane lady did but somehow in the name of equality and rights women have managed to create a world where no one holds them accountable even when they off their kids. It's a total frigging disgrace.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

The woman is a hysterical selfish lunatic

I disagree.
No organism has any right to take up residence inside her body and sustain itself by leeching away her bodily resources if she doesn't want it there.
It's not murder to oust an unwanted invader from your body; I don't care if said invader is nine months old or nine years old.
No woman is under any moral obligation to host an unwanted parasite in her body any more than any man is.

What I perceive this tragedy to be is a failure of the system.
The person who was failed is Ms. Skinner.
The system itself should be held accountable for it's failure to help her.

Tammy Skinner, age 22, is a single mother of two living in poverty.
Her bodily resources, particularly her iron levels, were almost without a doubt already severely depleted when she conceived her third pregnancy in just a few years. Her emotional and psychological resources, apparently, were at an end, as well.
It was without a doubt in Tammy Skinner's and her childrens' best interests that she terminate this third pregnancy.
But perhaps, as a single mother of two living in poverty, Ms. Skinner was unable to lay hands on the 450+ dollars that an abortion costs.
She has, after all, two children to support.
How the #$%@ do you suppose she's going to come up with that sort of money in two months, tops (D&Cs are only performed until gestational week 12).
After that window of opportunity closed, she still could've had an abortion... she could have left her kids, traveled to one of the few states that still offers second trimester abortions, and paid 3,000 to 4,000 dollars for the procedure.
Oops, guess she wasn't able to manage that, either. Whatta loser.

If privileged white women from the upper and middle-class socioeconomic brackets didn't have access to safe, legal abortion, you'd see many more cases of women blowing their guts out or carving themselves up with knives, because unfortunately involuntary occupation by an unwanted invading organism is simply intolerable for some people, in some situations, and death or self-mutilation is preferable.
Of course, privileged white women from the upper and middle-class socioeconomic brackets never have and never will be without access to reproductive choice, whether abortion is legal or illegal at any given time. Primarily, only the Tammy Skinners of this world- only the poor- are truly affected by such restrictions. And for the Tammy Skinners of this world, abortion might as well be illegal already; Roe v Wade might as well already have been overturned, because so many obstacles have been placed in the way of their obtaining safe, legal health care in recent years that the option might as well not even exist at all.
In a case like Tammy Skinner's, I imagine that shooting herself felt less like a choice than an imperative.

Tammy Skinner could not afford, in any sense of the word, another child.
And there is not the slightest guarantee that any child of Tammy Skinner's would've been adopted.
Tammy Skinner is black; state foster care systems are clogged with unwanted black children; most will remain in state care until they age out of it.
Even if a loving adoptive couple was just dying to adopt a little black baby like Ms. Skinner's, however, it is Ms. Skinner's perogative whether or not she wishes to allow her body to be used as an incubator or contribute any more of her (almost assuredly already depleted) bodily resources to such an endeavor.

We can't force pregnant women to gestate fetuses if they do not want to.
A society that promotes forced childbearing is barbaric.
A society that makes contraception and/or safe, legal abortion inaccessable to women like Ms. Skinner, a society that makes reproductive health care either financially or geographically/logistically out of reach, is for all intents and purposes engaging in the barbaric practice of forced breeding; or at least, it is forcing women like Tammy Skinner to take guns and blow their own guts out in order to avoid being forced to breed... and then reviling them for their desperate actions.
As if any of you would've ever though of Tammy Skinner as anything but inhuman garbage, anyway, even if she'd given birth to twenty children.
You- I- WE as a society treat the Tammy Skinners of this world as garbage.
We show them in every way possible that we are indifferent to the desperate conditions they exist under. We show our indifference to their children, and to their struggles to raise them to adulthood under conditions we can't imagine.
And then we act appalled- personally affronted- when they reach the end of their ability to cope and take matters into their own hands rather than turning to us for help. As if we've ever acknowledged their humanity or their children's humanity.
But isn't it fun, isn't it delicious... to show just how superior we are to someone like Tammy Skinner, by giving vent to a bunch of pompous, rhetorical bluster?
Some people must be really insecure, if they get off by bombastically announcing their moral superiority to an abused and poverty-stricken single mother who shot herself in the stomach.
:roll:
 
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If the pro-choice view is the objectively correct view, then she should only be charged with illegal discharge of a firearm and practicing medicine without a license.

Other than that, it's her body, her choice, right. Nothing she did affects anyone here in any way, right?
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

1069 said:
I disagree.
No organism has any right to take up residence inside her body and sustain itself by leeching away her bodily resources if she doesn't want it there.
It's not murder to oust an unwanted invader from your body; I don't care if said invader is nine months old or nine years old.
No woman is under any moral obligation to host an unwanted parasite in her body any more than any man is.

Trespassing is not a Capitole ofence. A Juvenile can not be given the death penalty even if Tresspassing were a Capitole ofence. The individual citizen can not carry out the sentence even if a juvenile could and was sentenced to death for trespassing. The mother's life was not in imediat danger, so Justifyable Homicide is also out.

Oh, and, before you go there: Slavory is not a Capitole ofence. A Juvenile can not be given the death penalty even if Slavory were a Capitole ofence. The individual citizen can not carry out the sentence even if a juvenile could and was sentenced to death for Slavory. The mother's life was not in imediat danger, so Justifyable Homicide is also out.

Also, before you go there: Theft is not a Capitole ofence. A Juvenile can not be given the death penalty even if Theft were a Capitole ofence. The individual citizen can not carry out the sentence even if a juvenile could and was sentenced to death for Theft. The mother's life was not in imediat danger, so Justifyable Homicide is also out.

Any word on what kind of gun she used?

I suspect than an abortion would have been cheeper than her firearm.

Oh, and this is for Duke:
*ahem*

"NO-STOMACK-SHOOTINGS!!!"

That goes with "NO-STOMACK-STOMPINGS" and "NO-WIRE-HANGERS".
 
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Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

Jerry said:
If the pro-choice view is the objectively correct view, then she should only be charged with illegal discharge of a firearm and practicing medicine without a license.

Other than that, it's her body, her choice, right. Nothing she did affects anyone here in any way, right?


Wrong.
She should be charged with NOTHING.
What she did affects me profoundly.
I hope it will be a wake-up call to others, as well. Tammy Skinner was not an anomaly. There are a million Tammy Skinners in this country; we have to do better by them and their families.
Step one is to oust this war-mongering fascist oligarchy from the White House and replace them with ethical and compassionate leaders who are willing to put domestic spending back on the agenda.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

1069 said:
I disagree.
No organism has any right to take up residence inside her body and sustain itself by leeching away her bodily resources if she doesn't want it there.
It's not murder to oust an unwanted invader from your body; I don't care if said invader is nine months old or nine years old.
No woman is under any moral obligation to host an unwanted parasite in her body any more than any man is.

What I perceive this tragedy to be is a failure of the system.
The person who was failed is Ms. Skinner.
The system itself should be held accountable for it's failure to help her.

OMG are you kidding me? Should I have popped birth control pills for her? Picked up the MAP for her? Scheduled an abortion after her first positive pee test for her???? Gimme a freaking break.

Even if I was to swallow the whole idea that she was too poor to take responsibility for her birth control there is still the matter of why she would wait until the freaking due date to shoot her fetus? That's hysterical insanity right there. The baby would have born any day. She already did all the incubating why not see it through and adopt the kid out?

Even if a loving adoptive couple was just dying to adopt a little black baby like Ms. Skinner's, however, it is Ms. Skinner's perogative whether or not she wishes to allow her body to be used as an incubator or contribute any more of her (almost assuredly already depleted) bodily resources to such an endeavor.
Bullshite. She carried it 9 months. The kid was already baked. If she walked into the hospital and said take this thing out of me or I'm gonna shoot it out they would've c-sectioned her right then and there.

We can't force pregnant women to gestate fetuses if they do not want to.
A society that promotes forced childbearing is barbaric.
Right but shooting your 9 month old about to be born any minute fetus is what...civilized? excusable?? someone else's fault???????


Some people must be really insecure, if they get off by bombastically announcing their moral superiority to an abused and poverty-stricken single mother who shot herself in the stomach.
:roll:

I'm all for helping women gain access to cheaper birth control. And poverty on the whole is a separate issue. Tons of poor women wouldn't shoot their about to be born baby! She is a barbarian and I refuse to buy into your suggestion that she is a victim. Though I might buy into the idea that she is mentally messed up and perhaps her mental illness led to such a catastrophe as this. I hope her other children are safe with her and I hope the officials give that a serious look.

But you can't point to "she was poor" as an excuse for her horrible disgusting behavior. There are poor women all over who would never do what she did.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

1069 said:
Wrong.
She should be charged with NOTHING.
What she did affects me profoundly.
I hope it will be a wake-up call to others, as well. Tammy Skinner was not an anomaly. There are a million Tammy Skinners in this country; we have to do better by them and their families.
Step one is to oust this war-mongering fascist oligarchy from the White House and replace them with ethical and compassionate leaders who are willing to put domestic spending back on the agenda.

A million women shooting themselves in the stomach? Surly Planned Parenthood could like hold a coupon-day or something.....do their part to stem all this gun violence....but then, according to the gun control crowd, it's the gun's fault, so...should we sue Glock for these "millions" of illegal abortions?
 
It wasn't an 'organism' at that point(if any), it was a potentially viable baby and she should have been charged then sent to an institution.
And, once again, Talloulou, you go completely off the deep end with absolutely NO foundation for your histrionics.
However our society embraces the idea of mothers killing their babies.
That's BS and you know it. Pure histrionics.:roll:
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

ngdawg said:
It wasn't an 'organism' at that point(if any), it was a potentially viable baby and she should have been charged then sent to an institution.
And, once again, Talloulou, you go completely off the deep end with absolutely NO foundation for your histrionics. That's BS and you know it. Pure histrionics.:roll:

Is Skinner in jail? Is she in trouble? Nope. As far as I can tell we live in a society that allows mothers to do whatever they want with their babies while those babies are in utero. And while many will say....oh they're not babies if the abortion is done early enough that is just semantics and don't mean shite. We know what they are and the majority of us embrace the idea that there is nothing wrong with killing them provided of course that the mother orders the killing or does it herself.
 
How many posts have you made now? 100? 1,000? And when doing so, have you read those that came before, perhaps perused the whole thread? There are numerous pictures, graphs, quotes, links, URL's, etc., showing developmental stages. You can't even tell what subspecies a picture is from until about 3.5-4 months gestation, so don't say it's 'semantics'.
Should this woman have been convicted of a crime? Yes, the fetus was viable and the presumption should have been that it was perfectly healthy.
Had she done that when she was maybe 3 months along, then there's just a point of lunacy, not murder or manslaughter, etc. because it is NOT a viable human being. Semantics would be if, say, at 2 months into a pregnancy, she does this and YOU still call it a viable baby, which, actually, is what you are doing. So it would seem, the 'semantics' game would be yours.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

ngdawg said:
How many posts have you made now? 100? 1,000? And when doing so, have you read those that came before, perhaps perused the whole thread? There are numerous pictures, graphs, quotes, links, URL's, etc., showing developmental stages. You can't even tell what subspecies a picture is from until about 3.5-4 months gestation, so don't say it's 'semantics'.
Should this woman have been convicted of a crime? Yes, the fetus was viable and the presumption should have been that it was perfectly healthy.
Had she done that when she was maybe 3 months along, then there's just a point of lunacy, not murder or manslaughter, etc. because it is NOT a viable human being. Semantics would be if, say, at 2 months into a pregnancy, she does this and YOU still call it a viable baby, which, actually, is what you are doing. So it would seem, the 'semantics' game would be yours.
fetus, toddler, teen, adolescent....all developmental stages. Basically what you have are moms opting to kill their kids. To you a kid at a lower developmental stage is less worthy. A 9 month old fetus isn't okay to kill while a 3 month old fetus is. I dont' make such distinctions. So all the links, URLS, and pics and definitions of various developmental stages means squat to me.
 
Then what's your point of even being here? To just keep saying the same BS over and over? Because we already know your stance, you've contributed nothing newsworthy, scientific, learning worthy, insight, etc......only a continuous same righteous personal opinion from one thread to another, barel y keeping totally on topic. (which, sorry, this is offtopic, I know) Hm....I kinda just described almost everyone of your same mindset....


This was like wandering into the wrong store and deciding to browse...what a dumb thing to do and I should know better.. ciao
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

1069 said:
No organism has any right to take up residence inside her body and sustain itself by leeching away her bodily resources if she doesn't want it there.
That wasn't the issue. In case you missed the facts, she had carried the pregnancy to full term and was scheduled to give birth on the morning she shot herself.

In a case like Tammy Skinner's, I imagine that shooting herself felt less like a choice than an imperative.
According to Tammy Skinner, the imperative was the contractions she had that morning of the due date which scared her out of her mind. Was she scared out of her mind because if she gave birth that day it would be too late for her to legally take the life of her now newborn child?

Tammy Skinner could not afford, in any sense of the word, another child.
And there is not the slightest guarantee that any child of Tammy Skinner's would've been adopted.
Virginia is one of the 46 states with Baby Safe Haven law that allows a woman to safely surrender her unwanted newborn up to 14 days to any hospitals, emergency medical services, police stations, and fire stations. No question asked. Shouldn't that be the option?

We can't force pregnant women to gestate fetuses if they do not want to.

She wasn't forced to carry the pregnancy to the scheduled date of giving birth, so that issue you raised is irrelevant.

Virginia Statute 18.2-71 makes it a crime to terminate a pregnancy in the third trimester for "any person [to] administer to, or cause … any drug or other thing" with intent to destroy an unborn child.

The question now is: Did Skinner commit a crime when she shot herself in the belly with intent to kill the unborn in her womb?

But perhaps, as a single mother of two living in poverty, Ms. Skinner was unable to lay hands on the 450+ dollars that an abortion costs.
Isn't PPH purported to be one of the pro-choice non-profit organizations that provided free pregnancy counseling, prenatal care, and sliding scale abortion for the poor?

She should be charged with NOTHING.
If you believe in the law, shouldn't that be supported by the facts of the law?

Skinner's defense lawyer argued that the meaning of the statute was crystal clear that "any person" meant "anyone other than the mother". His argument convinced the Circuit Court Judge. Do you think the Judge is correct to interpret "any person" to mean "anyone other than the mother" given that a "mother", being a born entity, is a "person" according to the Constitution?
 
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Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

blastula said:
1. Did the Virginian woman commit a crime?
2. Did the judge extend beyond the plain meaning of the words "Any person" in his interpretation of the law?

yes, and yes.

blastula said:
3. Should the woman give birth and then put the child up for adoption rather than shooting the unborn who is about to be born as the only choice?

shoting was a dramatic action that not only killed the fetus, but put herself in more danger than giving birth would have. I do not believe there can be any question in that regard.

I wonder if this woman was aware that most states have safe haven laws. that could have prevented this from happening.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

talloulou said:
The woman is a hysterical selfish lunatic who waited till the day her baby was to be born to shoot it. However our society embraces the idea of mothers killing their babies.

talloulou, I thought you had more class than that.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

1069 said:
I disagree.
No organism has any right to take up residence inside her body and sustain itself by leeching away her bodily resources if she doesn't want it there.
It's not murder to oust an unwanted invader from your body; I don't care if said invader is nine months old or nine years old.
No woman is under any moral obligation to host an unwanted parasite in her body any more than any man is.

she was in labor when she pulled the trigger. this has nothing to do with bodily rights. It was coming out very shortly whether she shot herself or not. the only difference her actions made were whether it came out dead or alive.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

star2589 said:
talloulou, I thought you had more class than that.

I absolutely do not think there is anything false about my statement. Our society does embrace abortion. The idea that a mother can kill her own has been so embraced that it now masquerades around like a constitutional right.

Just because the prochoice movement has made an effort to push the whole "killing your offspring" idea aside in favor of yapping over womens rights to their body and parasites doesn't mean that all those dead by their mothers hand aren't piling up lilke an enormous elephant that many refuse to acknowledge.

This women shot her baby moments before it was to be born.

She is in NO TROUBLE. Due to the efforts of the prochoice movement what she did, as mentally f ucked up as it was, is apparently legal.

There has already been one person who has made the shooter the victim and tried to place the fault at my feet!

Now you tell me we as a society haven't embraced mother's killing their own!
 
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Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

talloulou said:
I absolutely do not think there is anything false about my statement. Our society does embrace abortion. The idea that a mother can kill her own has been so embraced that it now masquerades around like a constitutional right.

Just because the prochoice movement has made an effort to push the whole "killing your offspring" idea aside in favor of yapping over womens rights to their body and parasites doesn't meant that all those dead by their mothers hand aren't piling up lilke an enormous elephant that many refuse to acknowledge.

This women shot her baby moments before it was to be born.

She is in NO TROUBLE. Due to the efforts of the prochoice movement what she did, as mentally f ucked up as was, is apparently legal.

There has already been one person who has made the shooter the victim and tried to place the fault at my feet!

Now you tell me we as a society haven't embraced mother's killing their own!

believing that she had a right to do what she did is not the same as embracing the idea of motheres killing their babies. no one likes what she did. to suggest otherwise is hyperbole.

the rest of the statement was directed at your absolute lack of compassion, which I am not used to hearing from you.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

Had someone else shot Tammy Skinner in the stomach in an effort to kill the baby she carried they'd be in trouble and people would be outraged.

Since the mother did it the act isn't even illegal. She isn't even ordered to undergo mental health care or anything. She's just a woman who made a freaking choice.

How could anyone even attempt to deny that our society has embraced mothers killing their own?
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

star2589 said:
believing that she had a right to do what she did is not the same as embracing the idea of motheres killing their babies. no one likes what she did. to suggest otherwise is hyperbole.

the rest of the statement was directed at your absolute lack of compassion, which I am not used to hearing from you.

That's bullshite! Keep tellilng yourself that but ever heard the saying

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing."

couldn't be more applicable.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

talloulou said:
Had someone else shot Tammy Skinner in the stomach in an effort to kill the baby she carried they'd be in trouble and people would be outraged.

yes, but legally the fetus would have been treated as her property. the assault would have been against her and her property.

talloulou said:
She isn't even ordered to undergo mental health care or anything. She's just a woman who made a freaking choice.

the article doesnt say whether she was ordered to go under mental health care or not, but given the drastic measures she took, and the abuse she cited, to not have these options given to her seem absurd.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

star2589 said:
yes, but legally the fetus would have been treated as her property. the assault would have been against her and her property.

That "fetus" was a fully developed baby! No one should have the right to treat that baby like property...not the mother or anyone else. It's a baby not a plasma tv.



the article doesnt say whether she was ordered to go under mental health care or not, but given the drastic measures she took, and the abuse she cited, to not have these options given to her seem absurd.
She should have those "options"....? :roll: Are you kidding. You think she needs more choices? She shouldn't have those options....she should be sentenced and forced to undergo mental health treatment like all other insane people that commit heinous crimes.

And how come all you prochoicers who are so concerned with born children aren't concerned about her born pieces of property???? Surely their mom is nuts and someone better make sure those kids are getting proper care.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

talloulou said:
She should have those "options"....? :roll: Are you kidding. You think she needs more choices? She shouldn't have those options....she should be sentenced and forced to undergo mental health treatment like all other insane people that commit heinous crimes.

this has to do with my general belief that no one should be forced to undergo treatment against their will, unless they are so far off that they are incapible of making their own decisions. I do not believe she was at that point.
 
Re: Tammy Skinner case: Is it crystal clear “Any person” means “other than the mother

star2589 said:
this has to do with my general belief that no one should be forced to undergo treatment against their will, unless they are so far off that they are incapible of making their own decisions. I do not believe she was at that point.

If she isn't suffering from mental illness than she should have been punished for her behavior. Killing a fully developed baby is not something even most prochoicers would dare defend.
 

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