Tamir Rice shooting: Cleveland to pay $6 million to settle family's lawsuit

[Napoleon]

When the call is someone is pointing a gun at people the first step is not conversation. It is to secure the scene. Once that takes place, THEN you have conversation

Securing the scene does not mean serving as judge, jury, and executioner and that's what happened in this case. It should be disturbing to everyone that all someone hast to do is call the police and make an accusation against you and the police respond by immediately blowing you away.

 

[Roadvirus]

Calling him stupid as you did is what is ridiculous. I played with toy guns all the time when I was a kid and no cops rolled up on me with guns blazing.

Did you go around threatening people with it in a public place?
This kid was. Therefore, he is stupid.

Blaming him or his family reflects poorly upon you and anyone else who does so.

It is the family's fault because they didn't teach him not to do stupid **** like that. But of course, they won't take the responsibility because it's more profitable to blame the cops.

 

[Roadvirus]

The cops never saw the gun, so your point is utter nonsense.

You obviously don't know the facts of the case.

1. 911 dispatch told the cops there was a kid with a gun (probably fake, threatening people
2. While the gun was in fact a toy, no one knew that because the orange tip, which identifies it as such, was removed.
3. Pictures of the toy gun were shown and it looked exactly like a real one

 

[Roadvirus]

Not sure dying is the "lottery", but yes, so long as the police act too quickly, resort to deadly force without threat assessments, and take the lives of the Republic's citizens unduly, we'll be paying out big.

When dealing with situations involving a gun, cops don't have time to do "threat assessments".

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

When dealing with situations involving a gun, cops don't have time to do "threat assessments".

Not these morons who decided to drive right next to Tamir. Had they parked a distance away they could have.

 

[jimbo]

Tbh the whole situation, while unfortunate, I can see why the police officers fired. Tragic. The kid panicked, reacted in exactly the wrong way and the rest is history.

The weapon in Rice's possession has been described as an Airsoft rifle, but in reality was a very authentic looking 1911 style gun. In addition, the warning orange tip had bee removed. An accident waiting to happen.

 

[Tigerace117]

The weapon in Rice's possession has been described as an Airsoft rifle, but in reality was a very authentic looking 1911 style gun. In addition, the warning orange tip had bee removed. An accident waiting to happen.

I saw the video and the picture of the firearm. It was indeed.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Securing the scene does not mean serving as judge, jury, and executioner and that's what happened in this case. It should be disturbing to everyone that all someone hast to do is call the police and make an accusation against you and the police respond by immediately blowing you away.

This was not an execution, it was a justifiable use of force in self defense of the officers. You are not required to grab a judge, select a jury, and convene a trial at the time a felony criminal assault (and that's what point a gun at people as Tamir rice did is).

The "toy" he has was a replica of a real model firearm in colors that make it look real, with no orange tip, it would be impossible to tell the difference without inspecting it.

Someone called the police and informed them that a guy in the park was pointing a gun at people, that's the information the officers had, they find individual matching description of gun toting suspect, gun toting suspect then (instead of putting his hands in the air) reaches for his waistband, where after being shot, officers located the replica gun. (stop saying toy, this was a replica firearm)

The time duration is not unreasonable for the circumstances. any action towards a firearm may be immediately reacted against. if you wait to see them pull the gun the last thing you will see is them firing it at you, and that's the training assumption. you cannot draw a handgun from a holster faster then i can draw one I already have my hands on. it's not possible. hence once the hand goes down to the waste the clock in a high speed game where the stakes are possibly your life just started.

as a side note although it really doesn't matter from the legal side, Tamir Rice was 195 pounds and 5'9'' I'm 187 and 5'4'' and I'm 23. when I was 12 I was 110 pound and 5'2'' and the tallest person in my class. the point here being, Rice was abnormally large for his age, and it was completely reasonable for officers to assume they were confronting someone much older.

The only real reason this is a controversy is because Rice was 12. if I described this same script to you describing the perp as a 24 y/o no one would have an issue with it. Deadly force law is keyed on the reasonableness of the response, viewed through the eyes of the officer knowing what he/she knew at the time they pulled the trigger.

Tamir Rice's age and the 911 caller's speculation that the gun was a toy are irrelevant. the only facts that may be used in this discussion are

1) Someone called 911 describing an act of felony assault w/ a deadly weapon
2) this individual is the likely subject of the 911 complain
3) likely subject of Assault w/ deadly weapon complaint is reaching for waistband where most people keep deadly weapons.

deadly force is thus legally justified. And another point about self defense/ use of force laws, nothing in any law requires your information or belief's to be CORRECT for your actions to be justified, only that they be reasonable.

 

[Napoleon]

The only real reason this is a controversy is because Rice was 12. if I described this same script to you describing the perp as a 24 y/o no one would have an issue with it. Deadly force law is keyed on the reasonableness of the response, viewed through the eyes of the officer knowing what he/she knew at the time they pulled the trigger.

I would still have a problem with it because I do not believe it is an appropriate or reasonable first course of action. They didn't know what the facts were, they did nothing to assess what the facts were, and they didn't attempt to deescalate the (non)situation. They just barreled in and started shooting before their car had even come to a complete stop. They're just as guilty of murder as a drive-by shooter in my view.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Not these morons who decided to drive right next to Tamir. Had they parked a distance away they could have.

You cannot verify a gun to be real versus a replica at a distance outside the effective range of a gun. A low powered handgun bullet can be deadly up to 200 yards away, and a pistol can be reasonably effective up to 20 yards with little training, there have been confirmed pistol kills at much greater distances, for example Senior Airman Andrew Brown, a security policeman, killed a mass shooter (Fairchild AFB, Spokane WA 1994) with a head shot at a measured distance of 70 yards with a 9mm service pistol.

so when your kill zone is between 1 and 70 meters, the distance that you get out at is irrelevant, and if you fear the suspect may hurt people you may have to take them down fast and engage at a distance you can hit him at.

The only other reasonable solution may have been to confront him at 70 to 100 yards with AR-15 patrol rifles and speak with him using the intercom on the car, but not all police cars in big cities have patrol rifles, and if they did that you'd be here bitching that these gestapo pointed assault rifles at a 12 y/o instead of getting closer, wouldn't you?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I would still have a problem with it because I do not believe it is an appropriate or reasonable first course of action. They didn't know what the facts were, they did nothing to assess what the facts were, and they didn't attempt to deescalate the (non)situation. They just barreled in and started shooting before their car had even come to a complete stop. They're just as guilty of murder as a drive-by shooter in my view.

There is no first course of action for dealing with an aggressive firearm armed suspect other then gun. none.

if police arrive up to you lights and siren on at a high rate of speed you need to put your hands in the air and follow all instructions. they're not paid to take bullets.

The call was not "this guy is weaing a gun in his holster minding his own business. " the actions described by the caller is AWDW. or aggravated assault, or assault 1 whatever term is used in that state.
You're making my case, they don't know what the facts were, if they knew for the fact it was an airsoft gun they may not have even responded, not alone shot. it's what you don't know that will kill you. You're asking them to assess the facts on a call that needs to be addressed immediately. one of the reasons that Columbine was so deadly was the cops waited for backup before storming the school. active calls involving illegal use of a firearm need to be addressed immediately and the tolerances are far tighter then a normal call.

like I said in response to a normal poster, the kill zone of a pistol for aimed shots is effectively 70 yards, and a bullet can remain at speeds high enough to be deadly up to two football fields away. you can't practically just cordon off the suspect in an urban area, they need to be confronted and neutralized (which doesn't have to mean shoot them, but it can among other things) ASAP.

Even if they made a mistake on approaching him so fast and close (and I don't think they did), it is not illegal to close in like they did, and it's certainly not a death penalty crime nullifying their right to defend themselves.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

You cannot verify a gun to be real versus a replica at a distance outside the effective range of a gun. A low powered handgun bullet can be deadly up to 200 yards away, and a pistol can be reasonably effective up to 20 yards with little training, there have been confirmed pistol kills at much greater distances, for example Senior Airman Andrew Brown, a security policeman, killed a mass shooter (Fairchild AFB, Spokane WA 1994) with a head shot at a measured distance of 70 yards with a 9mm service pistol.

so when your kill zone is between 1 and 70 meters, the distance that you get out at is irrelevant, and if you fear the suspect may hurt people you may have to take them down fast and engage at a distance you can hit him at.

The only other reasonable solution may have been to confront him at 70 to 100 yards with AR-15 patrol rifles and speak with him using the intercom on the car, but not all police cars in big cities have patrol rifles, and if they did that you'd be here bitching that these gestapo pointed assault rifles at a 12 y/o instead of getting closer, wouldn't you?

No reports of shots being fired, no one reported injured, Tamir was playing in a park, not making threatening moves before the police arrived. They could have parked a distance away, called out to him, and then if required shoot.

Not drive right by, get out and shoot. Even the cops who shot the guy who was holed up in the federal park service waited at least 30 seconds during what was threatening moves from a person who stated he would use his gun/s before shooting

 

[Napoleon]

There is no first course of action for dealing with an aggressive firearm armed suspect other then gun. none.

We seem to be the only industrialized nation that believes that.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

We seem to be the only industrialized nation that believes that.

Huh? police shootings happen in other countries all the time. The UK has had several controversial police shootings in the last several years where the officers were found justified.

Very few countries have the scale of urban crime problems we have as well. but that's irrelevant. Rice's shooting would be ruled justified in most of the industrial world.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No reports of shots being fired,

irrelevant

no one reported injured,

irrelevant

Tamir was playing in a park

by pointing a gun around ,

not making threatening moves before the police arrived.

see previous

They could have parked a distance away,

they could've also gone home, watched porn, and ate cookies, tactics are irrelevant

called out to him, and then if required shoot.

No call is required before deadly force is used. the circumstances made the officers reasonably feel it was required. the only reasonably safe option for officers dealing with an armed suspect is to cordon him off at a distance greater then effective pistol range and that means using rifles, which would've been just as controversial. The circumstances dicatating a suspect armed with a gun is making threatening gestures in a high crime area that sees frequent shootings is not a call you handle with relaxed conversation. it doesn't nessecarily need to end with shooting someone, but it can.

Not drive right by, get out and shoot.

monday morning quarter backing, and evidentally they can do that since an internal investigation and grand jury vindicated the officers

Even the cops who shot the guy who was holed up in the federal park service waited at least 30 seconds during what was threatening moves from a person who stated he would use his gun/s before shooting

irrelevant, a different situation with different facts in a different state involving federal and not local LE. A suspect running away from you (as Lavoy did at first) cannot be shot while fleeing under the prevailing case law of Garner v Tennessee unless the agents could articulate a threat to other's safety if he escapes. once Lavoy did what Rice did and faced officers reaching for a gun he was shot and killed and it was a clean shoot. Rice never fled the officers.

 

[VanceMack]

Fat people make the choice to go to Mcdonalds, the cops decided to stop right next to Tamir and then shoot him. The cops could have made a different decision on where to stop, and to actually try to engage Tamir in a conversation rather then choosing to stop right next to him and shooting right when they get out of the car

The cops responded to a call with a suspect with a gun threatening people in the park. They arrived on the scene and found the suspect who jumped up, walked towards them, and raised his shirt while reaching for what we know was the gun. Tamir Rice made the choice to go threten people in the park. His grandma made the choice to let him keep the gun she knew he had which he was using to threaten people with.

Choices WERE made...you just only want to focus on the cops thaat were confronted by a suspect drawing a weapon.

You should be a cop.

 

[Tettsuo]

Did he jump up when the cops arrived? Did he walk toward them? Did he raise his shirt? Was the weapon there?

Funny how you want to pretend what didnt happen actually DID happen, on video.

You describe it like you didn't see the video and are relying solely on the cops version of the events.

The boy walked up and lifted his shirt.

There was no weapon. It was a toy. The cops never saw the barrel of the toy before they started shooting. They didn't even get to see what they boy was carrying. It could have been a wallet for all they know. They didn't issue any warnings as described by the witnesses. They just drove up and shot.

 

[Tettsuo]

You cannot verify a gun to be real versus a replica at a distance outside the effective range of a gun. A low powered handgun bullet can be deadly up to 200 yards away, and a pistol can be reasonably effective up to 20 yards with little training, there have been confirmed pistol kills at much greater distances, for example Senior Airman Andrew Brown, a security policeman, killed a mass shooter (Fairchild AFB, Spokane WA 1994) with a head shot at a measured distance of 70 yards with a 9mm service pistol.

so when your kill zone is between 1 and 70 meters, the distance that you get out at is irrelevant, and if you fear the suspect may hurt people you may have to take them down fast and engage at a distance you can hit him at.

The only other reasonable solution may have been to confront him at 70 to 100 yards with AR-15 patrol rifles and speak with him using the intercom on the car, but not all police cars in big cities have patrol rifles, and if they did that you'd be here bitching that these gestapo pointed assault rifles at a 12 y/o instead of getting closer, wouldn't you?

You entire point is utterly irrelevant.

The cops never saw the gun.

 

[ludin]

You describe it like you didn't see the video and are relying solely on the cops version of the events.

The boy walked up and lifted his shirt.

There was no weapon. It was a toy. The cops never saw the barrel of the toy before they started shooting. They didn't even get to see what they boy was carrying. It could have been a wallet for all they know. They didn't issue any warnings as described by the witnesses. They just drove up and shot.

bb guns are not toys. they can injure and depending on what you are shooting at kill something.
they don't have to see the barrel where do you get this nonsense at?

the kid got up was walking toward them and reached for the gun.

 

[haymarket]

That is really unnecessary and unproductive. The kid was 12 years old. Calling him stupid as you did is what is ridiculous. I played with toy guns all the time when I was a kid and no cops rolled up on me with guns blazing. Tamir Rice was not stupid, he was a child. The stupid ones were the police who drove right up on him and shot him at point blank range. And I say this as a defender of the police. They screwed up here and a 12 year old is dead because of thier 'stupidity.' Tamir Rice is the victim here. Blaming him or his family reflects poorly upon you and anyone else who does so.

I can identify with what you relate from your childhood as I did the same thing. I can distinctly remember being 12 or so and taking toy rifles - which probably looked pretty real - three blocks up to the wooded park near my house where we would play ARMY or COWBOYS for hours. And then we would walk back with the same toy weapons. And like you, no cops ever rolled up with guns blazing or even looked twice at us.

NPR had a story yesterday about child slavery and related how many parents around the world actually would sell their own kids into slavery for a relatively little bit of money.

Here is a really crass question: How many American parents would take $6 million for their kid? I hate to admit it but I suspect the line might be around the block.

 

[Ikari]

Cities will continue to pay. No doubt. Thats unfortunate and foolish but it is a bi-product of a- a corrupt legal system, b-a citizenry that desperately needs a nanny and c-fools.

There are indeed legitimate instances where police and indeed cities should be held responsible. Incidents such as THESE where a ****head thought it would be fun to threaten strangers and then jump up and reach for a weapon when cops pulled up to respond to his own stupid actions and where his family KNEW he had the gun and knew he used it to threaten people...well...incidents such as these should not be considered one of those 'legitimate instances'.

And because these instances will still occur, because the city will be on the line for.big bucks, we need better training and better less-than-lethal tools for the police. I told you that nothing yoinsay can change the bottom line, and that remains true.

 

[Ikari]

The city did not have to pay out $6 million, they chose to to keep this matter out of the courts and the media

They chose to settle, if they were willing to take this case through trial and possibly an appeal it is almost guaranteed they (the city) would've prevailed in the court system

Oh? They would have won in court, that's why they paid out 6 million dollars and set the precedent on how they'll deal with these issues? Because they had a slam dunk win on their hands?

lol

 

[VanceMack]

You describe it like you didn't see the video and are relying solely on the cops version of the events.

The boy walked up and lifted his shirt.

There was no weapon. It was a toy. The cops never saw the barrel of the toy before they started shooting. They didn't even get to see what they boy was carrying. It could have been a wallet for all they know. They didn't issue any warnings as described by the witnesses. They just drove up and shot.

It's comical. You said the exact same thing that I said. He jumped up when he saw the cops. He approached them. He raised his shirt and reached for his weapon...the same weapon that he had been threatening strangers with. The same weapon the responding officers had been warned about. It wasn't a wallet. It wasn't a sandwich. It was a gun. The only reason YOU know it was a replica gun (NOT a toy....no matter how you want to make it so) is because you weren't responding to a criminal complaint. You read the accounts. You read newspaper stories. Cops didn't have the luxury you have. The cops responded to a criminal complaint of a suspect with a gun. When they arrived on scene that is exactly what they found.

Legally the gun is described as a 'weapon' because it was used in a criminal act...threatening others. It was presented not as a toy but as a weapon. If you rob a bank and the gun is a replica gun altered to look real will you be charged with armed robbery? You bet.

 

[VanceMack]

And because these instances will still occur, because the city will be on the line for.big bucks, we need better training and better less-than-lethal tools for the police. I told you that nothing yoinsay can change the bottom line, and that remains true.

As long as people run around making excuses for stupid people committing stupid acts and then blaming everyone else but the people committing the stupid criminal acts, there will continue to be dead people. Tamir Rice is dead because he committed stupid criminal acts and because his grandma knew about it and didn't stop it. Threaten people with what looks like a gun, with what you WANT people to think is a gun, and odds are, something bad is going to happen sooner or later. Or depending on your perspective, something good. At least the family profited off this tragedy.

 

[Ikari]

As long as people run around making excuses for stupid people committing stupid acts and then blaming everyone else but the people committing the stupid criminal acts, there will continue to be dead people. Tamir Rice is dead because he committed stupid criminal acts and because his grandma knew about it and didn't stop it. Threaten people with what looks like a gun, with what you WANT people to think is a gun, and odds are, something bad is going to happen sooner or later. Or depending on your perspective, something good. At least the family profited off this tragedy.

And the city paid out 6 million dollars. Deal with it. To combat this issue, we need better training and better less-than-lethal tools for the police. Again, deal with it.

You sitting there coming up with excuses for the Government does nothing to address the problem. Better training and better less-than-lethal tools for the police will help to limit the frequency of these senarios.