Taliban: we won the war

[PeacefulWarrior]

Nobody wins in war but the Taliban are claiming victory and I'm simply pointing out how stupid that statement is.

I also have to wonder who actually supports the Taliban in the first place?
They seem like terrible people who hate women and think anything but reading the Koran is a sin.
There's just nothing even slightly appealing about them, I honestly don't understand why anyone would willingly join them.

I guess they just dont know a great opportunity to seize FrEeDuMbZ$™ when they see it?

 

[nvflash]

A state of war never existed between Afghanistan and the US, and they never attacked us. If we had declared war unilaterally against them, it would be rightfully considered naked aggression against another state - something that puts us on the wrong side of the civilized world, and in opposition to our allies. The Afghani government never attacked us, and so could never surrender. The Taliban are an indigenous Afghani people who can never be expected to surrender their homeland to the invader, which means the only way to "defeat" them would require genocide - something we are not, and should not, be willing to engage in.

Bush the Lesser's mistake was not adhering to the Powell Doctrine - our own Pentagon's program to keep us out of another Vietnam. Instead, he elected to nation build by creating the most corrupt government ever before seen on this planet. However tragic the outcome, the sooner we can safely leave, the better.

They harbored know terrorist that attacked us, we gave them a diplomatic chance to turn them over to us, they refused, as Bin Ladin and others were guests in the county and culture, it would have been taboo for them to do it.

That not withstanding, taboo is not a recognized thing under international law.

We had every right to declare war on them, and remove them from power, but we didn't, because Congress is a bunch of useless old farts, and Bush II let Chaney rule an illegal "authorization of the use of military force".

If we had declared war, we could have forced them into unconditional surrender, and the war would have been over.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Afghanistan: 'We have won the war, America has lost', say Taliban

I tend to agree. The Taliban are still around, still controls parts of Afghanistan, and will probably be in charge of all of it within a few years. America is leaving and the people they went to unseat from power will be back in charge.

It depends on one's definition of victory. Since the senile doofus in the oval office has effectively announced when we are withdrawing, that is a least a short term win for the Taliban, however they will still have to deal with opposing forces just as they did before we invaded in the aftermath of 9/11/01. And they will also be well aware that if Afghanistan again becomes a terrorist staging area for attacks on the west, they will again get blasted back into the stone age.

 

[jonny5]

"Islamic fascism" eh?
LOL. That is *so* 2003.

I think the only real "fascism" causing a problem in Afghan and surrounding areas right now is probably.....Corporate Fascism.

Thats a big 10-4 good buddy!

Happy to debate it if you want to be serious.

 

[Nickyjo]

Shithole before we got there, shithole while we fought there, shithole after we leave, but, hey, what's a few trillion between friends.

So much for exercises in "nation building".

In 1963, the British prime minister Harold Macmillan declared: “Rule No. 1 in politics: Never invade Afghanistan.”

The Russians should have paid attention to the PM. It's called the "graveyard of empires" for a reason. I can understand extreme pressure on its government and attacking Al Queda, but toppling the government, installing a new one, and (unbelievably) calling our efforts a "crusade" were pretty dumb.

 

[Tigerace117]

Maybe we should stop respecting our troops so much until they do better and start actually winning some of these things.

I mean, if that’s the standard we are using we probably shouldn’t have holidays for civil rights leaders like MLK Jr since it seems like they failed pretty badly at solving this whole systematic racism thing

Do you seriously not understand the problem with your statement?

 

[Tigerace117]

"Islamic fascism" eh?
LOL. That is *so* 2003.

I think the only real "fascism" causing a problem in Afghan and surrounding areas right now is probably.....Corporate Fascism.

Thats a big 10-4 good buddy!

The only “corporate fascism” around comes from the folks who wave their poms poms around squealing about how proud they are to be white European guys.

It’s soooo 1936.

 

[MamboDervish]

They harbored know terrorist that attacked us, we gave them a diplomatic chance to turn them over to us, they refused, as Bin Ladin and others were guests in the county and culture, it would have been taboo for them to do it.
That not withstanding, taboo is not a recognized thing under international law.
We had every right to declare war on them, and remove them from power, but we didn't, because Congress is a bunch of useless old farts, and Bush II let Chaney rule an illegal "authorization of the use of military force".

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have gone in to pursue bin Laden. I'm arguing that going in without complying with the Powell Doctrine is why we find ourselves where we do today. Military action against al Qaeda was an appropriate response. Occupation and "nation building" was certainly not - as history should have taught us. At least those of us who are educable.

If we had declared war, we could have forced them into unconditional surrender, and the war would have been over.

Zero evidence of that. Who surrenders? Every single warlord? Every drug lord?? Each and every tribe??? There is nobody to surrender, and never was anybody to surrender, because there never was one single unified military opposition to us, nor any uniformed army general to turn over his sword. Talks of forcing a surrender are a complete fantasy. There has simply never been any way to walk into any village and tell who is Taliban, and who isn't. Nor will there ever be. The Russians fought an all-out war against Afghanistan, and eventually came to their senses and left.

We dropped more ordinance on Vietnam than was dropped in the entire European theater in WWII - and they never surrendered. Your comment flies in the face of reality, and history.

 

[joluoto]

It depends on one's definition of victory. Since the senile doofus in the oval office has effectively announced when we are withdrawing, that is a least a short term win for the Taliban, however they will still have to deal with opposing forces just as they did before we invaded in the aftermath of 9/11/01. And they will also be well aware that if Afghanistan again becomes a terrorist staging area for attacks on the west, they will again get blasted back into the stone age.

Then one who agreed to a withdrawal date WITH the Talebans was Trump. Biden is just carrying out that policy, though he postponed full withdrawal to September.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Then one who agreed to a withdrawal date WITH the Talebans was Trump. Biden is just carrying out that policy, though he postponed full withdrawal to September.

Trump made sure the Taliban understood that a phased withdrawal would be dependent on conditions on the ground. Dopey joe just like his old boss Barack Hussein just says we will be out by a specific date with no conditions.

 

[joluoto]

Surprised that it took the Taliban that long to declare victory.

From what I saw reported, the US hasn't lost a single solider in Afghanistan in the last 18 months, and there are only a few thousands there. The locations where they are are relatively secure, and provide a base of operations for CIA and other Intel operations to 'keep tabs' on what the Taliban are up to.
Seems presence in Afghanistan has intel benefits.

Pulling all that out was stated as effectively blinding the US as to what the Taliban were doing, as blind as we were prior to 9/11.

If the point is to reduce overseas deployed troops, why not reduce the number of troops in relatively peaceful locations and maintain the small presence in Afghanistan?

Probably because the US just switched aministration and they weren't sure how comitted the Biden administration was to carry out the withdrawal. Now that they know they claim victory.

 

[MamboDervish]

Trump made sure the Taliban understood that a phased withdrawal would be dependent on conditions on the ground. Dopey joe just like his old boss Barack Hussein just says we will be out by a specific date with no conditions.

That's not true.

 

[joluoto]

Trump made sure the Taliban understood that a phased withdrawal would be dependent on conditions on the ground. Dopey joe just like his old boss Barack Hussein just says we will be out by a specific date with no conditions.

Not sure that can be true, already under Trump the US was in process of leaving (because that process takes years) despite the Talebans actually gaining ground, and pulling out of talks with the Afghan government. All in all carrying out Trump's withdrawal is probably the correct thing, mostly because it was already in process, and making a u-turn would be non- ideal, and also prove that the US doesn't keep their promises. Making any withdrawal deal with the Talebans was a mistake in the first place, instead any withdrawal should have been conditional on the Talebans actually making peace with the Afghan government (which it wasn't, Trump ignored the Afghan government completely).

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

That's not true.

Prove it.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Not sure that can be true, already under Trump the US was in process of leaving (because that process takes years) despite the Talebans actually gaining ground, and pulling out of talks with the Afghan government. All in all carrying out Trump's withdrawal is probably the correct thing, mostly because it was already in process, and making a u-turn would be non- ideal, and also prove that the US doesn't keep their promises. Making any withdrawal deal with the Talebans was a mistake in the first place, instead any withdrawal should have been conditional on the Talebans actually making peace with the Afghan government (which it wasn't, Trump ignored the Afghan government completely).

I somewhat agree. Afghanistan has been much like Vietnam. Our politicians have not been willing to do what it would take to defeat the Taliban, so we may as well leave.

 

[MamboDervish]

Prove it.

??
Prove it is.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

??
Prove it is.

Have a nice day, then.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I am still flat-out awestruck that any informed adults could've thought that a foreign power remaking Afghanistan was doable while simultaneously trying to remake the Middle East.

"Let's **** around with two of the World's biggest ****ing labyrinths of quagmires.​

It'll be different this time because Freedom Fries or some shit."​

"hubris" doesn't do that delusion justice
Invading Iraq was mission creep from Hell's own special Hell.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Maybe we should stop respecting our troops so much until they do better and start actually winning some of these things.

Is it your position that men and women that have served their country in Afghanistan have not done their jobs?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I think its funny that these some of these armchair generals on here think the problem was that we didn't do sufficient ass kicking in Afghanistan. The Soviets were in Afghanistan for years and you bet your ass they were a hell of a lot more brutal than we were, yet it still didn't work...

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

I am still flat-out awestruck that any informed adults could've thought that a foreign power remaking Afghanistan was doable while simultaneously trying to remake the Middle East.

"Let's **** around with two of the World's biggest ****ing labyrinths of quagmires.​

It'll be different this time because Freedom Fries or some shit."​

"hubris" doesn't do that delusion justice
Invading Iraq was mission creep from Hell's own special Hell.

I don't totally agree with that. Wars only become a quagmire if we are not willing to take the necessary actions to defeat the enemy. America and it's allies fought a war with Japan at a time when they were as fanatical as the Taliban is today. the difference was that we were willing to do what it took to force japan to an unconditional surrender, whether it took a land invasion of their mainland or the atomic bombs. Afghanistan was ultimately handled much like Vietnam and Korea. Rules of engagement became too restricted and when the Taliban are defeated in battle, they simply slip over the border to Pakistan, rearm and regroup. That was never really addressed.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I don't totally agree with that. Wars only become a quagmire if we are not willing to take the necessary actions to defeat the enemy. America and it's allies fought a war with Japan at a time when they were as fanatical as the Taliban is today. the difference was that we were willing to do what it took to force japan to an unconditional surrender, whether it took a land invasion of their mainland or the atomic bombs. Afghanistan was ultimately handled much like Vietnam and Korea. Rules of engagement became too restricted and when the Taliban are defeated in battle, they simply slip over the border to Pakistan, rearm and regroup. That was never really addressed.

Consider the last time that remaking Afghanistan or the Middle East went as intended.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Consider the last time that remaking Afghanistan or the Middle East went as intended.

Who said anything about remaking Afghanistan or the Middle East? We cannot change their culture, however when they attack ours, we can respond.

 

[MamboDervish]

Have a nice day, then.

Thanks. Same back attcha . .
At my age, it's the only kind of day there is.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I don't totally agree with that. Wars only become a quagmire if we are not willing to take the necessary actions to defeat the enemy. America and it's allies fought a war with Japan at a time when they were as fanatical as the Taliban is today. the difference was that we were willing to do what it took to force japan to an unconditional surrender, whether it took a land invasion of their mainland or the atomic bombs. Afghanistan was ultimately handled much like Vietnam and Korea. Rules of engagement became too restricted and when the Taliban are defeated in battle, they simply slip over the border to Pakistan, rearm and regroup. That was never really addressed.

Are you telling me that the Soviets were not sufficiently brutal in Afghanistan? Were they Soviets too restricted in the rules of engagement in Afghanistan? They killed more than 250,000 Mujahideen, as many as 2 million Afghans (that was nearly 20% of the country's population at the time), and they still left after 9 years having failed.

There is a reason for the quote, "Afghanistan, where empires go to die."