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Taliban vs. Mosque

Hoplite

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Shocking. An organization driven by the idea that the US hates Muslims using something that kinda confirms that viewpoint.

On the flip side, it shows you that the Taliban doesnt exactly have full disclosure in their recruitment material as there are ALSO a lot of Americans standing up to defend the mosque. That notion kinda puts a dent in the "Americans are jerks" recruitment slogan.

An ideologically motivated organization using false or incomplete information to recruit poor people who cant really fact check, par for the course.
 
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Winston Smith

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Hoplite said:
On the flip side, it shows you that the Taliban doesnt exactly have full disclosure in their recruitment material as there are ALSO a lot of Americans standing up to defend the mosque.
And those Americans are called terrorist supporters for doing so.
 

Gardener

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Yes, and if the mosque were to go up without protest, the propaganda point would be "look, we have erected a monument right in the heart of the infidel!".

What naifs never seem to realize is that those bent on propaganda will find a way to exploit a situation one way or the other.
 

Winston Smith

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Yes, and if the mosque were to go up without protest, the propaganda point would be "look, we have erected a monument right in the heart of the infidel!".

What naifs never seem to realize is that those bent on propaganda will find a way to exploit a situation one way or the other.
Of course they would still generate propaganda, but it would be much less persuasive. I posted this as an example of something too seldom understood--sometimes living up to our principles can actually have an immediate strategic benefit.
 

Tashah

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Of course they would still generate propaganda, but it would be much less persuasive. I posted this as an example of something too seldom understood--sometimes living up to our principles can actually have an immediate strategic benefit.
Freedom of speech is also one of our principles.
 

Winston Smith

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Freedom of speech is also one of our principles.
I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but there's more to it than that. Some of our anti-Muslims want to legally block construction of the mosque. Others are arguably engaging in hate speech, which our laws don't protect.
 

Infinite Chaos

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Of course they would still generate propaganda, but it would be much less persuasive. I posted this as an example of something too seldom understood--sometimes living up to our principles can actually have an immediate strategic benefit.
One example is the reduction in revenge attacks by Sunni and Shi'ites on each other in Iraq when they stopped following Al Q'Aeda's agenda and reverted to their own muslim agenda. If we're supposed to be the good guys, it's always worth living up to our principles.
 

Winston Smith

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So if they think the mosque shows anti-muslimness, we will be able to kill them better? Really? :roll:
Judging by the last nine years, we couldn't do much worse. But no, that wasn't the point.
 

Winston Smith

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Really, we couldn't do much worse?

Seriously? :lol:
As far as I know, the Taliban is still the only viable political force in Afghanistan. That doesn't say much for our efforts there. This is a tangent, though. My point has to do with countering their recruitment efforts. In a sense that would make them easier to kill, since there would be fewer of them.
 

Winston Smith

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Would you be so kind as to cite the US laws against Hate Speech?
I didn't say there were laws against it. I said it wasn't protected. If it's prosecuted, it will be under laws against harassment, incitement to violence, or something like that.
 

Tashah

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I didn't say there were laws against it. I said it wasn't protected. If it's prosecuted, it will be under laws against harassment, incitement to violence, or something like that.
Please. Freedom of Speech and the right of assembly allowed the KKK/skinheads to march and deny the Holocaust in Skokie, Illinois... home of the largest Holocaust survivor population in the United States.

The American Civil Liberties Union successfully defended the speech/assembly rights of the Nazi Party and Ku Klux Klan in the 1977 case... National Socialist Party of the United States vs The City of Skokie.

Your legal thesis here is bunkum.
 

Winston Smith

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Please. Freedom of Speech and the right of assembly allowed the KKK/skinheads to march and deny the Holocaust in Skokie, Illinois... home of the largest Holocaust survivor population in the United States.

The American Civil Liberties Union successfully defended the speech/assembly rights of the Nazi Party and Ku Klux Klan in the 1977 case... National Socialist Party of the United States vs The City of Skokie.

Your legal thesis here is bunkum.
You're getting off point. I'm not saying that everyone who uses hate speech can be successfully prosecuted or that they should be prosecuted at all. I'm saying that if they do commit a crime, the First Amendment is no defense. That's because hate speech isn't something we protect in principle.
 

Tashah

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You're getting off point. I'm not saying that everyone who uses hate speech can be successfully prosecuted or that they should be prosecuted at all. I'm saying that if they do commit a crime, the First Amendment is no defense. That's because hate speech isn't something we protect in principle.
I am on point, and I say it once again...

Citizens are not prosecuted in the United States for utilizing their rights to assembly and free speech. If someone doesn't embrace the idea of the Ground-Zero Mosque, they are perfectly within their rights to assemble and articulate this stance. Just because you consider this as hate speech and/or a criminal activity doesn't make it so.
 

bangkok2010

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This a fake connection ,
Taliban has no connection with that islamic center
If the islamic center left to be held without protest ,then this will make a good reason for democratic contribution and share of all people to live peacefully .
and no place for terrorism from any group could find a person to recriut .
 

Winston Smith

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I am on point, and I say it once again...

Citizens are not prosecuted in the United States for utilizing their rights to assembly and free speech. If someone doesn't embrace the idea of the Ground-Zero Mosque, they are perfectly within their rights to assemble and articulate this stance. Just because you consider this as hate speech and/or a criminal activity doesn't make it so.
You're really hammering a point I never made. Of course it's not criminal to articulate a stance against the building of the mosque. In some cases it could be criminal to "articulate" it with defamation, fighting words, or incitement to violence. Language equating Muslims with terrorists I would say is arguably defamatory. In one case, arson has occurred in the context of ongoing protests. Not only the so-called Ground Zero mosque but other mosques and Islamic centers across the country are being opposed, sometimes on legal pretexts and sometimes with flat demonization. None of this is consistent with First Amendment values, which also exist to protext Muslims' free exercise of religion.
 

Tashah

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You're really hammering a point I never made. Of course it's not criminal to articulate a stance against the building of the mosque. In some cases it could be criminal to "articulate" it with defamation, fighting words, or incitement to violence. Language equating Muslims with terrorists I would say is arguably defamatory. In one case, arson has occurred in the context of ongoing protests. Not only the so-called Ground Zero mosque but other mosques and Islamic centers across the country are being opposed, sometimes on legal pretexts and sometimes with flat demonization. None of this is consistent with First Amendment values, which also exist to protext Muslims' free exercise of religion.
If you were always consistent in this holier-than-thou stance, it would be very impressive and extremely praiseworthy. But you’re never so terribly offended and butt-hurt when defamation and demonization nests on the other foot. It’s your cubbyhole, but a Planck cube is neither a spacious nor a grande niche.
 

Gardener

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But you’re never so terribly offended and butt-hurt when defamation and demonization nests on the other foot. .

He goes out of his way to deny it, truth be known, and for a poster who sets the bar so extrmely low for considering one sort of prejudice, he sure sets it at an impossibly high position for another.
 
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